The doctrine I don't want to believe-eternal fire

[Jason0047]

Such references to Hell are probably always in connection to the eternal status of it and it's citizens. When Hell is cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, indeed the corridors of Hell will flow with that.

Revelation 14:9-11 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

That's the warning concerning people who take the mark. If their torment rises forever, they are burning, but not annihilated. If God can set a bush on fire without consuming it into ashes, He can burn the wicked forever without making them non-existent. There is no torment possible for anyone that is burned up without a trace. That would actually be a blessing to simply cease to exist. What punishment is that?

Doesn't Revelation14 tell us that people will be tormented forever?

First let's look at what the text actually says...Revelation 14:10-11 is about a specific group of people at "the end times." It is about people who take the mark of the beast during what many call The Great Tribulation. John tells us of the day they meet God–Judgment Day.

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: (Revelation 14:10-11)​

It is very important to notice where they are. They are "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." This is obviously when they are standing before the Great White Throne of God on Judgment Day and cannot be hell. The parable that Jesus tells in Luke 19:27 teaches us that these ones will ultimately be slain, "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Notice, they are eventually slain in the presence of the King, but not before they are tormented by His holiness and their sinfulness. Additionally, this is the same exact word in Greek that Peter uses to talk about how Lot was vexed (tormented) in his soul while seeing the evil deeds done in his hometown. (2 Peter 2:8)

• If then, the torment with fire, brimstone, and eternal smoke takes place in the presence of the Lamb and holy angels, then it also takes place in the presence of the believers as well (since we will be with the Lord by that time). Think about it. Could you be happy for all eternity witnessing the excruciating fire and torture of hundreds of millions of lost souls? And will they be forever in the presence of Jesus being tormented as the text says, they are "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."
• But what about the word "forever"; doesn't the text say torment will go on forever? No. Read it very carefully. It clearly says "the smoke" will rise forever. Smoke rising forever is much different than torment going on forever. John is using the biblical expression of "smoke rising" to describe how people then remembered an important incident. Today we take pictures and video of our enemies being bombed and their city set on fire and play it over and over a hundred times, but back then the enemies of God were destroyed and it was over. There was no video to review over and over again back then. The preservation of smoke was the only way for them to remember the great event. Look how John speaks of Babylon's destruction, "And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up forever and ever." (Revelation 19:3) One day Babylon will be destroyed and even in heaven we will never forget God's destruction of that city. That is what is meant by smoke rising forever. The same thing happened to Sodom and Gomorrah, "And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace." (Genesis 19:28).
• It is not proper hermeneutics to view the scripture in Revelation 14:10 apart from how the other biblical writers use it. And they do not use it of eternal torment. Again, look how Isaiah uses the exact same wording about the city of Edom being destroyed, "the smoke thereof shall go up forever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever." (Isaiah 34:10). Edom was destroyed and the smoke rising forever was meant as a remembrance statement. Obviously, there is no smoke today still rising from the location of Edom. It is figurative language denoting that God's work of their destruction will "never be forgotten."

For our God is a fair and just God. He doesn't punish people beyond the type of sins that they did. If you want to see God as someone who tortures people forever and ever, be my guest. But it would not be the God of the Bible. For God is love. For some people believe God directly creates evil based off a false interpretation on a passage in Isaiah. But it doesn't make it true or right, though; Anymore than it would be true to make God to punish people waaaaay beyond what the crimes call for.​

For 1,000 years the Beast and the False prophet are kept in the lake burning with fire and brimstone. Why not annihilated?
Revelation 19:20 (KJV) [SUP]20 [/SUP] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So, as soon as Jesus returns, those two go into the lake, while Satan is locked up in the pit those same 1,000 years. He is let loose to deceive the world at the end, then joins his buddies in the lake. I don't see a hint of annihilation in any of it, but a literal fulfillment of the prophesy in Rev. 14:9-11.

Yes, I believe the beast and the false prophet are demons who will be in the Lake of Fire for 1,000 years before the devil arrives after he has contributed in deceiving certain people groups at the end of the Millennium (Which is a yet future age to come). The false prophet and the beast are demons who have inflicted unimaginable amounts of harm and suffering on mankind for thousands of years.

Ah, but none of this affects terms of our salvation. I believe it is given to us to ponder for the purpose of having greater incentive to do what we can to see others saved from all that, as nicely worded in Jude 1:21-25 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] And of some have compassion, making a difference:
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Jude actually works against your position here, my friend. It says the person who keeps themselves in the love of God and looks for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ leads unto ETERNAL LIFE. Meaning, one day we will have a new resurrected body that will not die. Nowhere do we see in Scripture talk about how this Eternal Life will be given to the wicked. Yes, there will be a resurrection of the damned or the wicked. But their resurrection is not unto Eternal Life. Their resurrection is unto the 2nd Death (Which is appropriately called the Second Death for a reason because it is associated with the first death).

 

[Jason0047]

Source used for the first couple of paragraphs in my post above.
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical
(Side Note: I do not believe in all views or beliefs expressed by this author - Especially their false view on soul sleep or that Lazarus and the Rich man is a parable.).

 

[Reborn]

Jason0047-
If you are brother in Christ (Which I believe we are), we all can learn from each other. That is why we are here. Iron sharpens iron. Oh, and I am not your better. I am nothing. Christ is everything. I only proclaim the truth of what I know to be true in God's Word. I do so as to glorify God and not myself.

Anyways, love, peace, and blessings be unto you, my dear brother.
I say these things not to get you upset or to be better in any way. I say these things with love and in truth.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

I wish most debates produced fruit...but does it ever really? Sure, once in awhile....but I'm afraid that more often than not, they just cause an overall ripple in future fellowship between the two debaters.

When heated debates get going, so many want to be heard, more so than even being "right" sometimes. When solid proof for correction comes their way, it's their/our human instinct to go into defense mode, because we feel we've been 'shown up'. ......what makes it worse, is that we have been shown up in front of a crowd.
Now correction has turned to defense,.... defense has turned to anger,..... and anger causes division.

How is this productive? It is needed once in awhile, but rarely productive.
You may say debates are good because we learn, that may be so, but I ask you, how often really?
Those who even go into long debates, know their Bible well, so they feel as though they've been shown the ultimate "truth",.....but the same exact applies with their opponent. It loops and loops.

As for my point on hell?
I've learned that I will never understand certain aspects of God. No matter how illogical they may seem, or "contradict" His teachings to me....I am no one to question Him or His ways. None of us are.
I agree with you, an eternal hell does NOT fit God's personality. I have to trust He's just though and not try to explain away the sides of God that make me uncomfortable or haven't been led to understand yet.

You say an everlasting hell does NOT fit "God's ways".....I say remember, JUDGEMENT day, (He judges? hmm?) Sodom and Gomorrah, and quotes like "vengeance is mine". There is that side of Him whether we dig it or not.

God is allowed an opinion on matters, and although He is love, it also states that He has another side.......remember He LET HELL EVEN EXIST.....if He is all love, than why did He do that then?

See?, that is what MOST Christians want to avoid about Him. That's perfectly fine if they want to....but avoiding plain teachings on horrible topics has now become the issue and a different debate.

We are not to explain away the things that aren't clear in the Bible brother....especially the things WE don't like,
sorry, that's how I feel.
Take care.

 

[Reborn]

Jason0047

You obviously didn't look at any of the verses within my first few post within this thread. I provided a list of verses that clearly show that "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.

I stated that in the beginning of my note...you cover so much in your notes brother....and you obviously didn't read mine. Thanks for proving my point without even knowing you did.

....Let's not kid anyone here. You are here to convince me. Otherwise you would not put any effort into explaining your position. Also, I disagree that "these debates" make a difference and or convince people. I have seen people change their mind because I did not let up on a Bible dicussion. It is rare, but it does happen. In fact, I changed my mind on ECT because somebody was willing to fight for the truth in God's Word.

Once again, no I am not.
God changes hearts and minds....NOT me brother.
I DO NOT use CC as a platform to preach....you do that.
I merely put up a different side of the argument for anyone who may browse this post.

 

[Jason0047]

I wish most debates produced fruit...but does it ever really? Sure, once in awhile....but I'm afraid that more often than not, they just cause an overall ripple in future fellowship between the two debaters.

When heated debates get going, so many want to be heard, more so than even being "right" sometimes. When solid proof for correction comes their way, it's their/our human instinct to go into defense mode, because we feel we've been 'shown up'. ......what makes it worse, is that we have been shown up in front of a crowd.
Now correction has turned to defense,.... defense has turned to anger,..... and anger causes division.

I disagree strongly. How we are to grow and learn together if we do not discuss the Bible with each other? There are bound to be disagreements. But Paul says we are to come together for the better and not for the worse. Just because you believe in Eternal Torment, does not mean I don't think of you as my brother. For I used to believe the same way. It was a doctrine I just believed blindly and had no explanaton for it. But I have come to grow in the Lord and realized that God does not want us to just act and or think with no rationale behind it.

Anyways, if divisions are caused, it is because they do not have love for one another.

How is this productive? It is needed once in awhile, but rarely productive.

People rarely are saved genuinely where they bear much fruit and prove they are true child of God. Narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it. Doesn't mean we should stop preaching the gospel. You are not God to know what kind of fruit or good is coming out of discussing God's Word.

You may say debates are good because we learn, that may be so, but I ask you, how often really?
Those who even go into long debates, know their Bible well, so they feel as though they've been shown the ultimate "truth",.....but the same exact applies with their opponent. It loops and loops.

You are doing that which you despise then, my friend. Your last post was on this point. Yet you are still looping (debating) this discussion. You believe it does not really do any good. So why bother?

I don't see Paul and the apostles giving up on others so easily. I see Paul and others trying to correct others according to the Word of God. So your thinking here is not Biblical, my friend; And you are judging in doing that very thing you hate.

As for my point on hell?
I've learned that I will never understand certain aspects of God. No matter how illogical they may seem, or "contradict" His teachings to me....I am no one to question Him or His ways. None of us are.
I agree with you, an eternal hell does NOT fit God's personality. I have to trust He's just though and not try to explain away the sides of God that make me uncomfortable or haven't been led to understand yet.

I used to say the same thing. But why believe something that you know to be immoral? It doesn't make sense.

You say an everlasting hell does NOT fit "God's ways".....I say remember, JUDGEMENT day, (He judges? hmm?) Sodom and Gomorrah, and quotes like "vengeance is mine". There is that side of Him whether we dig it or not.

I am not denying there is a Judgment and that there is a Lake of Fire. It's just not Eternal Torture in fire. For if you believe in ECT, you must believe God and his angels will watch souls burn in Hell for all eternity.

God is allowed an opinion on matters, and although He is love, it also states that He has another side.......remember He LET HELL EVEN EXIST.....if He is all love, than why did He do that then?

See?, that is what MOST Christians want to avoid about Him. That's perfectly fine if they want to....but avoiding plain teachings on horrible topics has now become the issue and a different debate.

We are not to explain away the things that aren't clear in the Bible brother....especially the things WE don't like,
sorry, that's how I feel.
Take care.

I want to ask you. Did you come to your conclusion on ECT thru personal indepth study or is it just something you believe because your church and or the majority of churches believe this way?

 

[dcontroversal]

Love and truth go hand in hand.....division comes when some reject the truth, Greek Words, Hebrew Words in Context so as to peddle their own dogmatic view for sure....!

 

[Jason0047]

I stated that in the beginning of my note...you cover so much in your notes brother....and you obviously didn't read mine. Thanks for proving my point without even knowing you did.

No, my friend. I looked at the verses you brought up and I replied to them. You didn't even reply to at least one my verses in relation to the Bible saying that "forever" does not always mean "forever." I provided a pretty extensive list. You are still welcome to go back and discuss them (if you wish).

Once again, no I am not.
God changes hearts and minds....NOT me brother.
I DO NOT use CC as a platform to preach....you do that.
I merely put up a different side of the argument for anyone who may browse this post.

I am not ashamed to preach the truth of God's Word by any means necessary. You shouldn't either, my friend. Not to get people upset or flustered. But to lead people to the truth of God's Word in love. if people are offended, it is because of the truth of God's Word that offends them. It is not the Messenger unless the Messenger is being overtly cruel towards the other person.

 

[Reborn]

Jason0047
I disagree strongly. How we are to grow and learn together if we do not discuss the Bible with each other? There are bound to be disagreements. But Paul says we are to come together for the better and not for the worse. Just because you believe in Eternal Torment, does not mean I don't think of you as my brother. For I used to believe the same way. It was a doctrine I just believed blindly and had no explanation for it. But I have come to grow in the Lord and realized that God does not want us to just act and or think with no rationale behind it.

How often does this happen? I apologize then because I do not follow you around and see if you do indeed do this once in awhile.

, if divisions are caused, it is because they do not have love for one another.

So now you see what I am getting at?

You are doing that which you despise then, my friend. Your last post was on this point. Yet you are still looping (debating) this discussion. You believe it does not really do any good. So why bother.

I responded to this. I told you it can be needed.
I do not debate just to debate, and I don't do it with the naive thought I can change anyone's minds.
There are things that ONLY God can teach someone, you seem to avoid this very real truth when you debate.
You are trying to force an idea, that they may not see......yet. Why is that?

I want to ask you. Did you come to your conclusion on ECT thru personal indepth study or is it just something you believe because your church and or the majority of churches believe this way?

God showed me.
You do agree God can show us things without the help of man right?
I've read up on many of articles. Nothing came from it.
I hold back a lot in my debates my man.

 

[Elin]

Sheol and Hades are the grave,

Actually, Hades (fire) is a part of Sheol, as is Paradise (blessing of Abraham's bosom),
as in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Lk 16:19-31.

the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is not about the afterlife. it's
about the ending of the priesthood.

There is nothing remotely relating to the priesthood in the parable.
Read it, and show where it is about the priesthood.

If you look at the parable in the context of the three chapters it is pretty clear what He is getting at.

Agreed. . .it is pretty clear that he is getting at unbelief, in parables about the unbelief of Israel, purity of heart and wholeheartedness, spiritual death and rebirth, and shrewdness in the Christian life.

If you look at the details of the parable it's pretty clear what He is getting at.

Agreed. . .it is very clear that he is getting at unbelief (Lk 16:31).

Also, the fire in Gehenna is not unending

It is unending when Jesus uses it to refer to hell, in his revelation that its fire is eternal (Mk 9:43, 47;
Mt 25:41), which meaning is "without end," as seen in the Biblical usage of "eternal" to describe the following:

God (Ro 16:26),
God's power (1Tim 6:16),
God's glory (1Pe 5:10).
the Holy Spirit (Heb 9:14),
redemption (Heb 9:12),
salvation (Heb 5:9),
life in Christ (Jn 3:16),
the resurrection body (2Co 5:1),
the future rule of Christ (2Pe 1:11)
which is declared to be without end (Lk 1:33),
sin that never has forgiveness (Mk 3:29),
the judgment of God (Heb 6:2),
fire, one of the instruments of God's judgment (Mt 18:8, 25:41, Jude 7).

The fire of hell is unending (aionios).

Jeremiah prophesied that Gehenna would one day be made holy to God.

Yes, that refers to the Gehenna which was an actual place outside Jerusalem.

Jesus used its name for the eternal fire of hell.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus shows both that
spirits are immortal, in the conversation between Abraham and the rich man, and
the fire of hell is the Hades of Sheol.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Nowhere do we see in Scripture talk about how this Eternal Life will be given to the wicked. Yes, there will be a resurrection of the damned or the wicked. But their resurrection is not unto Eternal Life. Their resurrection is unto the 2nd Death (Which is appropriately called the Second Death for a reason because it is associated with the first death).

I think consulting websites for understanding of scriptures often injects false doctrine very subtly. I like the various interlinear tools without commentary.

Anyway, there's some misapplication of "life", especially that of the flesh compared to eternal and all that compared to "death".

From Adam's day until now all the dead, even those whose bones are part of a garden soil, all will be resurrected. That means all are once again made alive for the judgment. All will bow to the Lord. Those in the Book of Life will live perpetually a blissful life. Those that are not in it will be alive to be punished perpetually. There's is eternal death, even though they are standing up and bowing. Even with Death cast into the lake, that Second Death of the wicked is not said to cease o exist. The Death is taken out of the picture so no others can be infected with it. Those that rise with that "infection" keep it forever. It's like a Vietcong sniper killing many soldiers. He finally is killed, but the dead are still dead. At least that shooter will not add to the dead. So it is with Death being cast into the lake. It doesn't say Death dies or is annihilated. It just can't ever affect anyone again. I should add that neither "death" nor "hell" are beings.

It appears to me some opposing interpretations occur out of misunderstanding of things like the love or God compared to His Judgments. "After all, does God not love mercy?" is become a big excuse for some folks not pursuing holiness. The Genesis flood is such an awful story that many even Christians can't believe it, being "too out of character for God". "If I have to believe that I would not want to serve God." That's a sad common opinion many have. I've been forbidden to preach or teach mentioning the Flood and even the blood of Jesus at many churches. There's not enough time allocation to handle those subjects adequately anyway when only visiting there to fill in. It is not for man to define His character, though. It is better for us to respect it, to hold a holy healthy fear of all that the word says He is.

 

[Jason0047]

How often does this happen? I apologize then because I do not follow you around and see if you do indeed do this once in awhile.



So now you see what I am getting at?



I responded to this. I told you it can be needed.
I do not debate just to debate, and I don't do it with the naive thought I can change anyone's minds.
There are things that ONLY God can teach someone, you seem to avoid this very real truth when you debate.
You are trying to force an idea, that they may not see......yet. Why is that?



God showed me.
You do agree God can show us things without the help of man right?
I've read up on many of articles. Nothing came from it.
I hold back a lot in my debates my man.

Again, your thinking here is not Biblical. Read Acts 15. The apostles gathered themselves together with Jews on an issue of a matter of extreme importance while others were arguing. If the apostles did not believe in debating, then they would not have spoken up during such a time while they were debating.

Acts 15 KJV

 

[Reborn]

Again, your thinking here is not Biblical. Read Acts 15. The apostles gathered themselves together with Jews on an issue of a matter of extreme importance while others were arguing. If the apostles did not believe in debating, then they would not have spoken up during such a time while they were debating.

Acts 15 KJV

Out of context Brother.
Do I really need to say that YOUR style of "debating" is technically not Biblical?
I've said over and over it is needed sometimes. I understand correcting something. There is a line though.
I could post about 15 verses to prove my point, but I fear we will go into that infamous 'loop' again.
You know exactly the verses I am referring too.
Fruitless. I will not do that, nor waste anymore of your time.

Have a good Christmas Jason. We can put off our disagreements until after the New Year.
Be well.

 

[Elin]

Aionios is used to describe that which in nature is endless (eternal); e.g.,

God (Ro 16:26),
God's power (1Tim 6:16),
God's glory (1Pe 5:10).
the Holy Spirit (Heb 9:14),
redemption (Heb 9:12),
salvation (Heb 5:9),
life in Christ (Jn 3:16),
the resurrection body (2Co 5:1),
the future rule of Christ (2Pe 1:11)
which is declared to be without end (Lk 1:33),
sin that never has forgiveness (Mk 3:29),
the judgment of God (Heb 6:2),
fire, one of the instruments of God's judgment (Mt 18:8, 25:41, Jude 7).

The fire of hell is unending (aionios).

What the dictionary says doesn't really matter,
what matters is what the Scriptures say.
Those who write the dictionaries have their preconceived biases just like everyone else.

Precisely, and the Scriptures above have nothing to do with dictionaries
in their use of "eternal" to describe that which is unending, in my above post.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Okay, so everybody has their arguments and is totally convinced that the Bible says so.
God is a paradox, and a paradox is not a contradiction. Two truths can simoulteneously exist and not be a contradiction, though they might seem so. This is paradox. This is the same way that arminianists and calvinists argue abut predestination and free will, and both sides use Scriptures. And both sides are correct, but incorrect in rejecting what the other Scriptures say.

A paradox is a true statement that either is contrary to conventional wisdom or is seemingly absurd

Paradoxes can be a useful tool in teaching because it requires you to think more carefully about what is being said.

1. Most people, when they first hear a paradox, immediately decide it cannot be true.

2. But as they chew on the thought they realize that assumptions they held are not necessarily correct.

Some examples of Bible paradoxes: "die in order to live", "rest in His yoke", "life died"

Simply both "sides" are true but we dont yet completely grasp how, maybe it is not even comprehensible by man's brain. Hey, it is God. Hard to put Him into that box.

As no man can prove his understanding is correct, how about just focusing on relationship with God and not getting there?

 

[Jason0047]

I think consulting websites for understanding of scriptures often injects false doctrine very subtly. I like the various interlinear tools without commentary.

I disagree. I believe we can learn alot from other believers. Discernment is the key by comparing Scripture with Scripture and by praying over what others say. But shutting yourself off to what other believers say is limiting your study. Of course you don't really do that because why else would you come to a forum whereby you can learn from others? Why listen to a Pastor at a church? For the Ethiopian Enuch listened to Philip's live Bible Commentary on a passage of Isaiah that the Enuch was reading.

Anyway, there's some misapplication of "life", especially that of the flesh compared to eternal and all that compared to "death".

From Adam's day until now all the dead, even those whose bones are part of a garden soil, all will be resurrected. That means all are once again made alive for the judgment. All will bow to the Lord. Those in the Book of Life will live perpetually a blissful life. Those that are not in it will be alive to be punished perpetually. There's is eternal death, even though they are standing up and bowing. Even with Death cast into the lake, that Second Death of the wicked is not said to cease o exist. The Death is taken out of the picture so no others can be infected with it. Those that rise with that "infection" keep it forever. It's like a Vietcong sniper killing many soldiers. He finally is killed, but the dead are still dead. At least that shooter will not add to the dead. So it is with Death being cast into the lake. It doesn't say Death dies or is annihilated. It just can't ever affect anyone again. I should add that neither "death" nor "hell" are beings.

It appears to me some opposing interpretations occur out of misunderstanding of things like the love or God compared to His Judgments. "After all, does God not love mercy?" is become a big excuse for some folks not pursuing holiness. The Genesis flood is such an awful story that many even Christians can't believe it, being "too out of character for God". "If I have to believe that I would not want to serve God." That's a sad common opinion many have. I've been forbidden to preach or teach mentioning the Flood and even the blood of Jesus at many churches. There's not enough time allocation to handle those subjects adequately anyway when only visiting there to fill in. It is not for man to define His character, though. It is better for us to respect it, to hold a holy healthy fear of all that the word says He is.

Uh, the Global Flood was loving because it destroyed wicked people and it stop the spread of an even more evil world than we have today. The shed blood of Jesus is loving because it shows forth God's love towards wanting to be with mankind. God wants us to know that there is a price for our sin against Him. That God loved us so much that He was willing to pay that high price. These loving things are in no way related to God torturing people in the presence of the Lamb and His Holy angels for all eternity. I mean. Think about that. The Lamb and his holy angels will be sitting there watching people burn forever? Is not the Lamb Jesus? Does not the Lamb forever still have his physical body? If this is the case, then how is Jesus going to spend physically with those on the Eternal New Earth if He is busy in Hell watching people suffer?

 

[Jason0047]

Out of context Brother.
Do I really need to say that YOUR style of "debating" is technically not Biblical?
I've said over and over it is needed sometimes. I understand correcting something. There is a line though.
I could post about 15 verses to prove my point, but I fear we will go into that infamous 'loop' again.
You know exactly the verses I am referring too.
Fruitless. I will not do that, nor waste anymore of your time.

Have a good Christmas Jason. We can put off our disagreements until after the New Year.
Be well.

Prove your case with Acts 15 that they were not debating.

Anyways, may God bless you and peace be unto you, my friend.

 

[Elin]

Actually, it is Paul who assumes it,
which is why he would rather die on the spot than continue living:

"I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." (Php 1:23-24)

You're grasping, Butch, at the absurd.

The Scriptures are clear that the human spirit is immortal.

As I said, If you look at what the Pharisees believed you'd see what Paul believed.
He says nothing about immediately being with Christ, that's an assumption.

More absurdity, Butch.

It both assumes Jesus' revelation to Paul changed nothing he believed as a Pharisee,
and denies the self-evident meaning of what Paul says in my post above.

 

[Jason0047]

Okay, so everybody has their arguments and is totally convinced that the Bible says so.
God is a paradox, and a paradox is not a contradiction. Two truths can simoulteneously exist and not be a contradiction, though they might seem so. This is paradox. This is the same way that arminianists and calvinists argue abut predestination and free will, and both sides use Scriptures. And both sides are correct, but incorrect in rejecting what the other Scriptures say.



Simply both "sides" are true but we dont yet completely grasp how, maybe it is not even comprehensible by man's brain. Hey, it is God. Hard to put Him into that box.

As no man can prove his understanding is correct, how about just focusing on relationship with God and not getting there?

Folks who hold to ECT cannot explain God's love in light of ECT. It is a big mystery. A paradox. A contradiction. There is no contradiction in the Conditional View on Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

For will the holy angels and Jesus (Who is the Lamb) in his physical body be watching people suffer for all eternity? Doesn't it make more sense that the Lamb (Jesus) would be spending all eternity with His people?

 

[Elin]

I've addressed what asked for. The problem is assumptions. The passages do state what you're claiming, you're inferring it, there's a big difference.

They're not absurd at all if you understand them from a Jewish perspective rather than a Greek perspective.

This does a lot to locate your error.

Yes, the problem is assumptions.

You assume that Jesus' teaching to Paul changed nothing he believed as a Jew.

 

[Elin]

"Destroy" (Gr: apollumi) does not mean annihilation or loss of being, as seen in its usage in Mt 7:13;
Lk 13:3, 5, Jn 3:16, 10:28, 17:12; Ro 2:12, 9:22; 1Co 15:18, 2Co 2:15, 4:3; Php 1:28, 3:19;
2Th 2:3, 10; 1Tim 6:9; Heb 10:39; Jas 4:12; 2Pe 2:3, 3:7, 9, 16.

Yet, Scripture makes it clear that it can mean destroyed, too. See Matthew 12:14, Matthew 18:14, and Matthew 21:41.

Yes, but "destroyed" does not mean annihilation or loss of being, it means ruin, loss of well-being, like a car that is totaled.