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Yes they do.... some of them allow gays into their priesthood, & some even are considering rejoining the RCC..... but that sure don't make them right.
BTW, speaking of drinking blood.....
Acts 15:28-29 (KJV) [SUP]28 [/SUP]For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; [SUP]29 [/SUP]That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
BTW, speaking of drinking blood.....
Acts 15:28-29 (KJV) [SUP]28 [/SUP]For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; [SUP]29 [/SUP]That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
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Yes they do.... some of them allow gays into their priesthood, & some even are considering rejoining the RCC..... but that sure don't make them right.
BTW, speaking of drinking blood.....
Acts 15:28-29 (KJV) [SUP]28 [/SUP]For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; [SUP]29 [/SUP]That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
BTW, speaking of drinking blood.....
Acts 15:28-29 (KJV) [SUP]28 [/SUP]For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; [SUP]29 [/SUP]That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
R
real presence makes the most sense to me because i see communion as paralleling the old testament sacrifices and covenantal ceremonies...
in an fellowship offering or peace offering the offerer would eat a portion of the sacrifice...it was -not- enough for the offerer to simply eat a 'symbol' of the sacrifice...it had to be the actual sacrificed creature...
and jesus called the wine his blood 'of the new covenant'...in the torah when a new covenant was made the people were sprinkled with the blood of the covenant sacrifice...it was not enough for the people to merely be sprinkled with a 'symbol' of the sacrifice...they had to receive the actual blood of the actual sacrificed creature...
i see no reason why this would suddenly have to become a 'symbol' in new testament times...ignorant repetitions of pagan accusations of 'cannibalism' notwithstanding...
in an fellowship offering or peace offering the offerer would eat a portion of the sacrifice...it was -not- enough for the offerer to simply eat a 'symbol' of the sacrifice...it had to be the actual sacrificed creature...
and jesus called the wine his blood 'of the new covenant'...in the torah when a new covenant was made the people were sprinkled with the blood of the covenant sacrifice...it was not enough for the people to merely be sprinkled with a 'symbol' of the sacrifice...they had to receive the actual blood of the actual sacrificed creature...
i see no reason why this would suddenly have to become a 'symbol' in new testament times...ignorant repetitions of pagan accusations of 'cannibalism' notwithstanding...
While he may have been a little 'direct', he's not wrong. RCC doctrine is heresy, and yes, blasphemy, for it takes the actual meaning of scripture & replaces it with another one...... a "replacement" doctrine, if you would.
For example, We're saved by grace thru faith in Christ. They teach that baptizing saves, for they baptize children, telling their parents this "tradition of the elders" saves the little tykes. Balderdash!
The scripture teaches us we have an advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus. They teach the priests & the Pope are advocates. Then, these "advocates" tell the people what they need to do as their 'penance'. Only Christ Himself is our Judge.
And ooooh, let's not forget they teach praying to Mary, their "queen" of Heaven!
This is only the tip of the iceberg of all they teach.
For example, We're saved by grace thru faith in Christ. They teach that baptizing saves, for they baptize children, telling their parents this "tradition of the elders" saves the little tykes. Balderdash!
The scripture teaches us we have an advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus. They teach the priests & the Pope are advocates. Then, these "advocates" tell the people what they need to do as their 'penance'. Only Christ Himself is our Judge.
And ooooh, let's not forget they teach praying to Mary, their "queen" of Heaven!
This is only the tip of the iceberg of all they teach.
While he may have been a little 'direct', he's not wrong. RCC doctrine is heresy, and yes, blasphemy, for it takes the actual meaning of scripture & replaces it with another one...... a "replacement" doctrine, if you would.
For example, We're saved by grace thru faith in Christ. They teach that baptizing saves, for they baptize children, telling their parents this "tradition of the elders" saves the little tykes. Balderdash!
The scripture teaches us we have an advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus. They teach the priests & the Pope are advocates. Then, these "advocates" tell the people what they need to do as their 'penance'. Only Christ Himself is our Judge.
And ooooh, let's not forget they teach praying to Mary, their "queen" of Heaven!
This is only the tip of the iceberg of all they teach.
For example, We're saved by grace thru faith in Christ. They teach that baptizing saves, for they baptize children, telling their parents this "tradition of the elders" saves the little tykes. Balderdash!
The scripture teaches us we have an advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus. They teach the priests & the Pope are advocates. Then, these "advocates" tell the people what they need to do as their 'penance'. Only Christ Himself is our Judge.
And ooooh, let's not forget they teach praying to Mary, their "queen" of Heaven!
This is only the tip of the iceberg of all they teach.
Your disagreement with doctrines of the Catholic Church is not evidence of heresy because they are based on false understanding. Condemnation of Catholicism does not justify your position of separation.
We are so blessed to have a God who is merciful and longsuffering, that he can forgive catholics and other christians for their imperfections, and not hold our sins against us, lest all perish.
Christ be with you always.
Presenting a selective list of Church Fathers on one side of the issue is not that helpful for the discussion especially when some of the ECFs also held to a representational view.
What bothers me about the issue though is many will ascribe wondrous powers by partaking the TRUE Body and Blood of Christ whereas Scripture is silent. If it was so why wasn't there more emphasis on the Lord's Table?
What bothers me about the issue though is many will ascribe wondrous powers by partaking the TRUE Body and Blood of Christ whereas Scripture is silent. If it was so why wasn't there more emphasis on the Lord's Table?
Yogosans14,
When u look closely at the churches u say are protestant denominations like the Lutherans, Episcopalians, and the Anglican, they are not prostestant churches at all. If u study them closely, u will find they sprung out from the Papal Rome church. Even the Muslim people worship Mother Mary and use rosary beads.These are what u call daughters of the Babylon church.
Wrong, the Lutheran Church (via Luther) p-r-o-t-e-s-t-e-d much of the teachings and practices of Rome...so much so that Luther was ex'd out of the Mother Church. True there are some crypto Romanists in the Lutheran Church wanting to lead them back to Rome and away from Sola Scriptura but that's another story.
1 Cor. 11:23,24 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed took bread and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.
Was the bread actually his body or did the bread represent his body?
25) In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, this cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.
Was the "cup" the actual new covenant in his blood or does the "cup" represent the new covenant in his blood?
Was the bread actually his body or did the bread represent his body?
25) In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, this cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.
Was the "cup" the actual new covenant in his blood or does the "cup" represent the new covenant in his blood?
This is really interesting, I am not believer of the old testament but do believe in the new testament, and more in the love Jesus has give to humanity.
about churches.
The founding fathers have a very important say as they are close to the real events.
The Catholics did bring the bible to us.
The protestants like Luthero were Roman Catholics. and they caused (historically) the biggest apostasy of the history, and as a consequence we have thousands of Christian churches, they are 1500 years far from the events.
The Catholics did behave badly in the middle ages.
where is the truth?
about churches.
The founding fathers have a very important say as they are close to the real events.
The Catholics did bring the bible to us.
The protestants like Luthero were Roman Catholics. and they caused (historically) the biggest apostasy of the history, and as a consequence we have thousands of Christian churches, they are 1500 years far from the events.
The Catholics did behave badly in the middle ages.
where is the truth?
If you mean the Roman Catholic church as opposed to the true Catholic church made up of independent churches, it is heretical to quite some extent. It all depends on definition. Certainly it holds many heretical teachings including prayers to the dead and idolatry.
Every true Christian is a witness to the world that Jesus is the Son of God. The witness of the Roman Catholic church is not a very good one. It blurs the issue with its prayers to the dead.
The Roman Catholic church CANNOT trace its heritage back to the Apostles. Just one of its many blatant lies and twisting of history. No church can trace its heritage back to the Apostles through a line of men. But anyone with intelligence knows that ALL true Christians can demonstrate that they are in the line of faith that goes back to the Apostles.
They are preserved by the Scriptures and proclaimed by all true Christians of many denominations.
Many of the dogmas of Satan are preserved by the Roman Catholic church with its birth in political intrigue, political enforcement, and arrogant claiming of a position which no one accepted but them.
the doctrines of the Roman Catholic church are themselves evidence of heresy. You delude yourself when you think no one understands the. We understand both the theory which is bad enough, and the fact which are even worse.
LOL I was you who separated from us in around 7th century AD when you falsely claimed authority over the whole free church of Christ. You are the separatists.
It certainly requires some doing. But those who truly believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone for their salvation will certainly find forgiveness, for as you say God is merciful even to Roman Catholics who truly repent and believe.
Every true Christian is a witness to the world that Jesus is the Son of God. The witness of the Roman Catholic church is not a very good one. It blurs the issue with its prayers to the dead.
The Roman Catholic church CANNOT trace its heritage back to the Apostles. Just one of its many blatant lies and twisting of history. No church can trace its heritage back to the Apostles through a line of men. But anyone with intelligence knows that ALL true Christians can demonstrate that they are in the line of faith that goes back to the Apostles.
They are preserved by the Scriptures and proclaimed by all true Christians of many denominations.
Many of the dogmas of Satan are preserved by the Roman Catholic church with its birth in political intrigue, political enforcement, and arrogant claiming of a position which no one accepted but them.
the doctrines of the Roman Catholic church are themselves evidence of heresy. You delude yourself when you think no one understands the. We understand both the theory which is bad enough, and the fact which are even worse.
LOL I was you who separated from us in around 7th century AD when you falsely claimed authority over the whole free church of Christ. You are the separatists.
It certainly requires some doing. But those who truly believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone for their salvation will certainly find forgiveness, for as you say God is merciful even to Roman Catholics who truly repent and believe.
The Catholics didn't "bring" the Bible to anyone but themselves, keeping it out of the hands of their own congregation fore many centuries.
They in fact spent enormous effort keeping the Bible separated from laity and even their own clergymen that didn't have a license to keep a copy (in Latin, of course)
In 1536 A.D. they burned William Tyndale at the stake after he translated the Bible to English. They dug up the bones of John Wycliffe (who in 1380 A.D. was the first to translate the Latin Bible to English), burned them in the public square, then tossed the ashes into a river. Various Councils before then prohibited anyone from possessing any translation. The result was frequent burning of precious Bibles, and severe persecution of even Christians for defying the RCC's decisions to leave reading of the Bible in the hands of priests.
Upon studying the works of those demon-inspired RCC clergymen and their scholars, you will find one of their chief fears was for laity to discover the connection between The Old Testament and the New Testament. They hated Jews and their religion so much they killed their own that would inform the people about secret knowledge (Bible) meant to stay with the Papacy. That also afforded the clergy tremendous social and political power which multiplied through the Middle Ages in the wake of the demise of the Roman Empire.
Off your side topic....The antisemitism carried by the RCC all through their history is a big part of why the world of Christians refused to challenge Hitler and the genocide of millions of Jews in the gas chambers (Holocaust). The RCC is slowly correcting the antisemitism problem, but still takes actions that keep Israel suspicious of the Holy See. For some background check out Vatican-Israel Relations - Council on Foreign Relations
They in fact spent enormous effort keeping the Bible separated from laity and even their own clergymen that didn't have a license to keep a copy (in Latin, of course)
In 1536 A.D. they burned William Tyndale at the stake after he translated the Bible to English. They dug up the bones of John Wycliffe (who in 1380 A.D. was the first to translate the Latin Bible to English), burned them in the public square, then tossed the ashes into a river. Various Councils before then prohibited anyone from possessing any translation. The result was frequent burning of precious Bibles, and severe persecution of even Christians for defying the RCC's decisions to leave reading of the Bible in the hands of priests.
Upon studying the works of those demon-inspired RCC clergymen and their scholars, you will find one of their chief fears was for laity to discover the connection between The Old Testament and the New Testament. They hated Jews and their religion so much they killed their own that would inform the people about secret knowledge (Bible) meant to stay with the Papacy. That also afforded the clergy tremendous social and political power which multiplied through the Middle Ages in the wake of the demise of the Roman Empire.
Off your side topic....The antisemitism carried by the RCC all through their history is a big part of why the world of Christians refused to challenge Hitler and the genocide of millions of Jews in the gas chambers (Holocaust). The RCC is slowly correcting the antisemitism problem, but still takes actions that keep Israel suspicious of the Holy See. For some background check out Vatican-Israel Relations - Council on Foreign Relations