THE EUCHARIST

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May 3, 2009
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#21
Augustine:
Persons of this description must not be said to eat the body of Christ, inasmuch as they are not to be reckoned among the members of Christ – when he said; Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, he remaineth in me, and I in him: he shewed, what it is to eat the body of Christ and to drink his blood, not merely so far as the sacrament is concerned, but verily and indeed: for this is to remain in Christ, that Christ also should remain in him. For he thus speak it, as if he should say: Whoso remaineth not in me, nor I in him; let not that person assert or imagine, that he eateth my body or drinketh my blood.
To believe in him is to eat the living bread. He who believeth in him, eateth – We also today receive visible food: but a sacrament is one thing; and the virtue of a sacrament, another. How many receive from the altar and die: may die, even by the very act of receiving – The true recipient is, he who eats internally, not he who eats externally: he who eats in his heart, not he who presses with his tooth – He who remaineth not in Christ and in whom Christ doth not remain, beyond all doubt neither spiritually eats his flesh nor drinks his blood, although carnally and visibly he may press with his teeth the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ : but he rather eats and drinks the sacrament of so great a thing to his own condemnation .


Then there are statements where the consecrated elements are said to be types or antitypes or figures or symbols or images or representation of the body and blood of Christ:

Ireneus taught that the elements which had been offered and consecrated by prayer, became antitypes or figures of Christ’s body and blood. The meaning of antitype cannot be doubted, because Paul in Hebrews (which was cited by Ireneus in his same passage), said: Christ has not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the antitypes of the true holy places: but into heaven itself. (Heb 9:24).
Therefore, as Ireneus and the early church believed, the bread and wine when consecrated by prayer, are antitypes or figures of Christ’s body and blood, just as the Levitical holy places were antitypes or figures of the true holy places, even of the sanctuary of God in heaven.
Then we have the ancient Clementine Liturgy, which was used prior to communion. This harmonises strictly with Ireneus in his statement that he bread and wine are to be viewed as an oblation or Eucharistic sacrifice only antecedently to their being consecrated. And after being consecrated, he pronounces them to have become antitypes or figures:

We moreover give thanks, O Father, for the precious blood of Jesus Christ which on our behalf was poured out, and for his precious body: of which also we celebrate these elements as the Antitypes, he himself having commanded us to set forth his death.

Augustine:
The Lord, when he gave the sign of his body, did not doubt to say: This is my body.
In the history of the New Testament, so great and so marvellous was the patience of our Lord, that, bearing with Judas, though not ignorance of his purpose, he admitted him to the banquet, in which he commended and delivered to his disciples the figure of his own body and blood.
These (namely the water, and the blood) are sacraments, in which, not what they are, but what they shew forth, is the point to be always attended to: for they are the signs of things, being one thing, and signifying another thing.

Quote of Augustine"And he was carried in his own hands. But, brethren how is it possible for a man to do this? Who can understand it? Who is it that is carried in his own hands? A man can be carried in the hands of another; but no one can be carried in his own hands. How this should be understood literally of David we cannot discover; but we can discover how it is meant of Christ. For Christ was carried in His own hands, when, referring to His own Body, He said, This is My Body. For He carried that Body in His hands." On the Psalms, 33, 1, 10; JR 1464; NPNF I, v.8, p.73

This passage should relieve all doubt as to Augustine's belief in the substantial presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Augustine insists that this be "understood literally" not symbolically, or even "spiritually". Augustine is specifying, unequivocally and unambiguously, that at the Last Supper consecration, Jesus literally held His own body in His own hands. Augustine neither dilutes or rationalizes its meaning, nor does he attempt to explain it, for it is a divine mystery.

In light of Augustine's beliefs, one of the main objections of the Protestant reformer John Calvin, was that the Fathers did not hold to a concept of transubstantiation, as would later be defined at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. Calvin's objection centered around his claim that the Fathers did not specify the annihilation of the substance of bread and wine. He writes:
"Indeed, I admit that some of the old writers used the term "conversion" sometimes, not because they intended to wipe out the substance in the outward sign, but to teach that the bread dedicated to the mystery is far different from common bread, and is now something else... For because they say that in consecration a secret conversion takes place, so there is now something other than bread and wine, as I have just observed, they do not mean by this that the elements have been annihilated, but rather that they now have to be considered of a different class from common foods intended solely to feed the stomach, since in them is set forth the spiritual food and drink of the soul. This we do not deny."

There are several problems with Calvin's view. First, altho thruout his writings Calvin denies the concept of annihilation, he never explains how his own view(i.e., that in the Eucharist "there is something other than bread and wine) can be substantiated. Calvin's only explanation is that the substance is "different" than it was previously. Moreover, Calvin offers no Scriptural examples of the kind of "difference" he proposes. Second, as Calvin himself admits, the Fathers come very close to using terminology which equals that of transubsantiation. Altho the Fathers do not given the full-blown doctrine appearing a millennia later at the Fourth Lateran council, nevertheless, the Fathers understood that a real conversion takes place in the Eucharist; and that the Eucharist was not merely a symbol of Christ's body and blood but the very reality they represented. Each Father distinguished between the unconsecrated bread and wine and the consecrated body and blood. Rather than attempt to explain how this seemingly impossible transformation occurred, the Fathers often conceded its workings to "mystery" as did Augustine, and left the formulation of the precise theological terminology to those of latter generations. As one his main arguments, Calvin insists that there can be no miraculous change since, according to him, Christ cannot be in 2 places at the same time, for after His resurrection He was immediately confined to His physical body. INT 17:29-329

Lastly, an examination of the proof texts Calvin cites do not support his claim that Augustine dendied the substantial presence. For example, Calvin cites Augustine in Epistles on the Gospel of John, 13:11; 50:12,13; 92:1. In none of these, does Augustine exhibit a denial that because Christ is in heaven then He cannot be in the Eucharist. In the first, 13:11, Augustine says only that Christ sits in heaven; in the second, 50:12, that Christ is not on earth in the same form He was previous to His Ascension; and in the third, 92:1, that Christ was no longer present in bodily form when he ascended. These are just a sample of Calvin's many attempts to exploit ambiguities in Augustine's statements to make it seem as if Augustine denied Christ's substantial presence in the Eucharist.

Quote: "Was not Christ once for all offered up in His own person as a sacrifice?... For if sacraments had not some points of real resemblance to the things which they the sacraments, they would not be sacraments at all. In most cases, moreover, they do in virtue of this likeness bear the name of the realities whch they resemble. As therefore, in a certain manner the sacrament of Christ's body is Christ's body, and the sacrament of Christ's blood is Christ's blood, in the same manner the sacrament of faith is faith."Letters 98, 9; JR 1424; NPNF I, v.1, 410.

John Calvin attempted to dismiss the quote above by claiming that Augustine "explains himself, saying that the sacraments take their names from their likeness to they things they signify; consequently, in a certain sense the sacrament of the body is the body. Another quite familiar passage of Augustine agrees with this: 'The Lord did not hesitate to say, This is my body', when he gave the sign. INT, 4:17;28

Calvin claims that Augustine calls it the Body merely because it signifies the Body, not because it is the Body of Christ. Yet,Calvin fails to quote the end of the paragraph. There Augustine explains what he means by the "signification" of the sacraments. He writes:
"Thus the Apostle says, in regard to this sacrament of Baptism: 'We are buried with Christ by baptism unto death.' He does not say, "We have signified our being buried with Him,' but 'We have been buried with Him.' He has therefore given to the sacrament pertaining to so great a transaction no other name than the word describing the transaction itself.

Thus, Augustine's view is that sacraments are named with the actual name of the action or substance they represent, precisely because they are not mere "signfications", but realities of the transaction they label.

Protestant historian, J.N.D. Kelly has the same conclusion: "It is true also that he [Augustine] occasionally used language which, taken by itself, might suggest that he regarded the bread and wine as mere symbols of the body and blood. Thus, when the African bishop Boniface inquired how baptized children can be said to have faith, Augustine's reply [Ltrs, 98,9] was to the effect that baptism itself was called faith, and that current usage allowed one to designate the sign by the name of the thing signified. Early Christian Doctrines, p.448

Calvin compares "signification" to Augustine's use of the word "figure". Calvin assumes Augustine's use of "figure" can be taken only one way--as a way to explicitly portray the Eucharist merely as a symbol of the Body and Blood. Calvin claims this in the face of all the passages in Augustine which explicitly portray the Eucharist as the real Body and Blood of Christ.

One big problem Calvin faces is that "figure" does not always refer to metaphor, but often refers to the reality of the entity it represents. E.g., the sentence "George Washington is a well-know figure in American history" does not mean the GW was a fictitious person, rather, the use of "figure" is a literary device to emphasize his actual place in history.

Protestant historian, JND Kelly, voices the same concern as he warns against distorting the patristic intention behind the word "figure":
"Occasionally these writers use language which has been held to imply that for all its realisst sound, their use of the terms "body" and "blood" may after all be merely symbolic. tertuallian, for example, refers to the bread as a "figure" of Christ's body, and one speaks of "the bread by whcih he represents His very body". Yet we should be cautious about interpreting such expressions in a modern fashion. According to ancient modes of thought a mysterioous relationship existed between the thing symbolized and its symbol, figure or type; the symbol in some sense was the thing symbolized." Early Christian Doctrines, p.212

In conclusion, altho opinions of Augustine's views on the Eucharist may vary, JND Kelly provides an accurate and balanced assessment of his teaching. Kelly writes:

"There are certainly passages in his writings which give a superficial justification to all these interpretations, but a balanced verdict must agree that he accepted the current realism." After listing a few quotes whch confirm Augustine's belief in the substantial presence of Christ in the Eucharist, Kelly continues: "One could multiply texts like these which show Augustine taking for granted the traditional identification of the elements with the sacred body and blood. There can be no doubt that he shared the realism held by almost all his contemporaries and predecssors." Early Christian Doctrine, pp. 446-447.
 
May 3, 2009
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#22
Tertullian
God in your Gospel has so revealed the matter, calling the bread his own body, that you may hence understand how he gave the figure of bread to be the figure of his own body: whose body, conversely, the prophet has figuratively called bread, the Lord himself being afterward about to interpret this sacrament.

Christ reprobated, neither the water of the Creator with which he washes his people, nor the oil with which he anoints them, nor the fellowship of honey and milk with which he feeds them as infants, nor the bread by which he represents his own body: for, even in his sacraments, he needs the beggarly elements of the Creator.

When attempting to use Tertullian to support a symbolic presence of Christ in the Eucharist, adherents will often stress the use of the word "figure" and imply that Tertullian understood the Eucharist as merely a symbol. Tertullian, similar to Augustine and other Early Fathers, is not using the word "figure" in a symbolic sense but in a representative sense. Tertullian's view was that there is a substantial presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

See my quote from Protestant historian, JND Kelly in the post above, about use of the word "figure". Augustine.
 
May 3, 2009
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#23
Cyprian;
When Christ says, I am the true vine: the blood of Christ is not water, but wine. His blood, by which we are redeemed and vivified, cannot be seen in the cup, when wine, by which the blood of Christ is shewn, is wanting to the cup: for, by the sacrament and testimony of all the Scriptures, that blood is declared to have been poured forth.
Because Cyprian’s use of “I am the true vine” is obviously figurative, then Cyprian , by comparison, must also have thought “This is my blood” to be figurative also.

Quote: "The priest who imitates that which Christ did, truly takes the place of Christ, and offers there in the Church a true and perfect sacrifice to God the Father." Cyprian to the Ephesians

Of Cyprian, Protestant historian JND Kelly states:

As Cyprian expresses it, 'As to our mentioning His passion in all our sacrifices--for it is in the Lord's Passion that our sacrifice consists--we ought to do nothing other than He Himself did.' The priest, it would appear, sacramentally re-enacts the oblation of His Passion which the Savior originally presented to the Father. Further, it is clear from what he says elsewhere about offering it on behalf of people in need, and especially on behalf of the dead, that Cyprian conceived of the eucharistic sacrifice as possessing objective efficacy." Early Christian Doctrine, pp. 215-216

Cyprian however was not the only one who viewed the Eucharist as such. Kelly states: "The writers and liturgies of the period are unanimous in recognizing it as such." Ibid,. p. 214
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#24
ALL protestants believe in the presence of Christ with us at the Eucharist. What we don't believe in is the superstition that the bread and wine mysteriously changes its substance into something else. That Christ is actually present within the elements of bread and wine, which is reducing Christ to a piece of bread , literally. It's one thing to recognise Christ's presence at the Eucharist, for He promised to never leave nor forsake us and wherever we assemble He is present with us... by His Spirit, by His angels, but never is he to be thought of as a piece of bread or wafer made in a factory. Transubstantiaion is a very specific doctrine, but when you look back at early church writings in context, it cannot be said without any doubt, that all the early church fathers and churches believed in a doctrine which was really only defined between the 13th and 15th centuaries.


You said:

This passage should relieve all doubt as to Augustine's belief in the substantial presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Augustine insists that this be "understood literally" not symbolically, or even "spiritually". Augustine is specifying, unequivocally and unambiguously, that at the Last Supper consecration, Jesus literally held His own body in His own hands. Augustine neither dilutes or rationalizes its meaning, nor does he attempt to explain it, for it is a divine mystery.
Nice try, but not really. These statements by Augustine disprove the Catholic view of the Eucharist ...

Whoso remaineth not in me, nor I in him; let not that person assert or imagine, that he eateth my body or drinketh my blood.

He who remaineth not in Christ and in whom Christ doth not remain, beyond all doubt neither spiritually eats his flesh nor drinks his blood, although carnally and visibly he may press with his teeth the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ : but he rather eats and drinks the sacrament of so great a thing to his own condemnation .

In other words, whoever eats the bread and wine after it is consecrated, and is not "in Christ" and does not spiritually eat, does not eat the body or drink the blood of Christ,as Augustine clearly says.

Catholicism on the other hand, says that after it is consecrated, whoever eats it, saint or sinner, "in Christ" or not, is eating the body and blood of Christ, because it has undergone some change, and is actually the body and blood of Christ.

These prove that Augustine did not believe the elements actually changed into the body and blood of Christ, for it appears their importance as the blood and body of Christ, depends upon the heart and spirituality of the person eating it.

Point proven, thankyou, have a nice day. :)
 
T

thefightinglamb

Guest
#25
I think this discussion gets pretty boring...so I have not read it all...

But I think a verse for you to pray about Eric is in Hebrews, where it says:

"Ask not who can ascend to the heavens to bring Christ down, or who may descend to bring Christ up...but the word is very near to you...the word of faith that is in your heart..."

And while this is commenting on holiness...how no one can make themselves holy, but putting faith in Christ is how salvation is attained...

You have GOT to ask yourself...if that is not exactly what CATHOLICS believe the priests do...CALL Jesus down from heaven into bread...or from the dead into bread...I am pretty sure they believe they call him down from heaven...

You should read and pray on all of Hebrews before responding to this...and DO NOT read what Catholics say about it...just read the Bible and pray...and see what the LORD shows you...the Lord is not WHATEVER the Catholic church says he is...He is a real Person that is also God...

I hope you are given discernment...I was given that when I meditated on the Catholic church...not out of hate, as I WANTED to believe in the Catholic church...but out of truth.

God bless
tony
 
May 3, 2009
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#26
ALL protestants believe in the presence of Christ with us at the Eucharist.

Really? Most protestants believe the Eucharist symbolizes Christ's saving redemption. That doesn't even qualify in believing that Christ is present with you. Believing in the presence with you is consubstantiation. Lutherans believe that.


What we don't believe in is the superstition that the bread and wine mysteriously changes its substance into something else. That Christ is actually present within the elements of bread and wine, which is reducing Christ to a piece of bread , literally.
Apostolics don't believe Christ is reduced to a piece of bread Is that your understanding, despite having read these posts? We believe that the host, the species, becomes Christ through a supernatural process, and despite the species appearing unchanged to our visible eye.

It's one thing to recognise Christ's presence at the Eucharist, for He promised to never leave nor forsake us and wherever we assemble He is present with us... by His Spirit, by His angels, but never is he to be thought of as a piece of bread or wafer made in a factory.
I don't know of anyone, or any group, who thinks of Christ as a piece of bread. Do you? The consecrated species becomes the Body and Blood of Christ, even though it to the visible eye appears unchanged.

Mahogony, you say you believe because of your faith that Christ is present with you in the host. Do you see Christ present with you? No. Your faith causes you to believe despite what your sight or other senses fail to perceive. Why is it so hard to believe, so hard to have faith, that the consecrated species becomes the Body and Blood of Christ, despite our failing to see the change? It shouldn't be difficult given this is what Jesus Christ repeatedly told his Apostles! He didn't say I will be present with this bread or wine, He said "This is my Body. This is my Blood."

Transubstantiaion is a very specific doctrine, but when you look back at early church writings in context, it cannot be said without any doubt, that all the early church fathers and churches believed in a doctrine which was really only defined between the 13th and 15th centuaries.

I never once said that. What I said is the Early Fathers believed in the Real Presence. Transubstantiation, whose foundation is a belief in the Real Presence, was only formalized at the Lateran Council in 1215. Being a written doctrine, it uses specific terminology. Of course, those Early Fathers who preceded the Doctrine, were unlikely to use the very wording of the latter doctrine. That is only common sense. But what the Early Fathers did convey by their different pronouncements was a belief in the Real Presence. That is what I have been saying all along.


You said:



Nice try, but not really. These statements by Augustine disprove the Catholic view of the Eucharist ...

Whoso remaineth not in me, nor I in him; let not that person assert or imagine, that he eateth my body or drinketh my blood.

He who remaineth not in Christ and in whom Christ doth not remain, beyond all doubt neither spiritually eats his flesh nor drinks his blood, although carnally and visibly he may press with his teeth the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ : but he rather eats and drinks the sacrament of so great a thing to his own condemnation .

In other words, whoever eats the bread and wine after it is consecrated, and is not "in Christ" and does not spiritually eat, does not eat the body or drink the blood of Christ,as Augustine clearly says.

Mahogony, shame on you! The quotes above are simply saying that anyone who is unworthy, because of lack of spiritual preparedness, will not benefit fully from the sacrament, or will receive no benefit at all [depends how severe the spiritual problems are of the receiver]. This is elementary sacramental theology. Paul himself in Corinthians says the same thing about the Eucharist. This has nothing at all to do with belief in the Real Presence!

Catholicism on the other hand, says that after it is consecrated, whoever eats it, saint or sinner, "in Christ" or not, is eating the body and blood of Christ, because it has undergone some change, and is actually the body and blood of Christ.

Not true. Receiving imparted grace from a sacrament is NOT affected by the spiritual preparedness of the receiver. Don't know where you picked up that gem of protestant wisdom. However, regarding the spiritual caliber of the officiator, that is, the priest, it is a different question. A priest who officiates at the sacrament, even if he has spiritual problems, the imparting of grace to the receiver, is not vitiated by that situation.

These prove that Augustine did not believe the elements actually changed into the body and blood of Christ, for it appears their importance as the blood and body of Christ, depends upon the heart and spirituality of the person eating it.

That Augustine believed in the Real Presence is widely recognized thruout all christian circles. It is incontrovertible.

Suggest you ponder the quotes and statements of JND Kelly, that I included above in my posts. Here is an example:

In conclusion, altho opinions of Augustine's views on the Eucharist may vary, JND Kelly provides an accurate and balanced assessment of his teaching. Kelly writes:

"There are certainly passages in his writings which give a superficial justification to all these interpretations, but a balanced verdict must agree that he accepted the current realism." After listing a few quotes whch confirm Augustine's belief in the substantial presence of Christ in the Eucharist, Kelly continues: "One could multiply texts like these which show Augustine taking for granted the traditional identification of the elements with the sacred body and blood. There can be no doubt that he shared the realism held by almost all his contemporaries and predecssors." Early Christian Doctrine, pp. 446-447.

Point proven, thankyou, have a nice day. I will have a nice day. You too.:p

In Christ.
 
May 3, 2009
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#27
[

Quote: Not true. Receiving imparted grace from a sacrament is NOT affected by the spiritual preparedness of the receiver. Don't know where you picked up that gem of protestant wisdom. However, regarding the spiritual caliber of the officiator, that is, the priest, it is a different question. A priest who officiates at the sacrament, even if he has spiritual problems, the imparting of grace to the receiver, is not vitiated by that situation. End of Quote

Mahogony, I inadvertently misphrased what I intended to say. A sacrament is valid, even if the receiver is spiritual unprepared to receive it. However, the efficacy of the imparted grace is affected by the spiritual unpreparedness of the receiver. If problems are severe, then the sacrament will be of no benefit to the receiver because Christ will not dwell in that person. However, the efficacy of imparted grace is NOT affected by the lack of spiritual preparedness of the officiating priest. This is sacramental theology. And as an issue is completely distinct from our topic, Eucharistic Theology [which is based on the Real Presence].

In Christ

 
Jan 8, 2009
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#28
What we don't believe in is the superstition that the bread and wine mysteriously changes its substance into something else. That Christ is actually present within the elements of bread and wine, which is reducing Christ to a piece of bread , literally.
Apostolics don't believe Christ is reduced to a piece of bread Is that your understanding, despite having read these posts? We believe that the host, the species, becomes Christ through a supernatural process, and despite the species appearing unchanged to our visible eye.
What proof do you have that the species becomes Christ through a supernatural process? If I gave you a piece of cake and told you that it had supernaturally transformed into a pussy cat, despite it not appearing so, would you believe me? You are really calling a piece of wafer (bread) Christ, are you not? What part of Christ's body is the wafer? Is it his toe, or his head, or finger? Is it His whole person?

The whole nature of the Eucharist is meant to be a memorial, a remembrance:

1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
Christ did not say, "as often as you drink it, you actually drink my blood". He said to do it to remember Him. You don't remember someone if they are actually present there with you in the bread and wine as you claim happens.



Mahogony, you say you believe because of your faith that Christ is present with you in the host. Do you see Christ present with you? No. Your faith causes you to believe despite what your sight or other senses fail to perceive. Why is it so hard to believe, so hard to have faith, that the consecrated species becomes the Body and Blood of Christ, despite our failing to see the change? It shouldn't be difficult given this is what Jesus Christ repeatedly told his Apostles! He didn't say I will be present with this bread or wine, He said "This is my Body. This is my Blood."
I believe the consecrated wafer is still a wafer and the wine is still wine, after consecration. Sure, we can believe anything we like, but that doesn't make it so. If I believe that my piece of cake has changed into a pussy cat, there is nothing you can say to convince me otherwise if I believe it to be so. In fact I could gather a whole heap of people who believe the same, and confirm that it is indeed a pussy cat. Yet...all manner of logic and all scientific tests on the piece of cake would prove it is still a piece of cake and not a cat. That's not faith, that is lunacy. Imagine if that same sort of faith was applied to Christ. Christ did not resurrect from the dead, but rather, we are to believe by faith that it was so, and though it does not appear to have happened, we believe it does, supernaturally. Or to healing, imagine a person who is sick, they are prayed for, they are told to believe they are well, despite the evidence contrary to it and they never get better. Yet they convince themselves they are healthy and well despite being sick. Makes no sense, at all.


 
A

awings7

Guest
#29
Early Church Teaching on the Eucharist

How many times have Catholics and Eastern Orthodox been confronted by Protestants who claim that Apostolic Christianity started long after the death of Christ and His Apostles? Below are a couple of references that put such claims to shame. In the quote from the Didache we see that the name of "Eucharist" referenced (eu = true, charist = charism = Grace or Gift) which means literally, "True Grace or True Gift." This Eucharist is considered to be something "sacred" and not to be given to the infidels (dogs). It references "The Lord's Own Day" which is Sunday. It mentions confession of sins. It mentions that this "breaking of bread" is a "sacrifice" and this "sacrifice must not be defiled" and must be "pure." The reference from St. Ignatius tells us that the Eucharist IS the "TRUE FLESH OF OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST."


This IS the Mass that both Catholics and Eastern Orthodox attend, believe and participate in. Anything short of the Mass as a Pure and Sacred Sacrifice, the True Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, held on Sunday and before receiving of it one must go to Confession, is something that falls short of the Truth. It is a strange doctrine to True Christians. It falls short of the Faith that has ALWAYS been taught by the Apostolic Church, as evidenced by the passages below.

The Eucharist in 70 A.D.

The Didache (means "teaching") or "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles" was written in Syria between 70 A.D. and 110 A.D. This "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles" contains the oldest Eucharistic prayer, liturgical worship, directions on Baptism, fasting, prayer, and the treatment of bishops and other clergy. It was used by bishops and priests for the instruction of catechumens. Many early Christian writers have referenced the "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles" or "Didache". The document tells us Apostolic Christians about the Mass and Eucharist in 70 A.D.:

"Let no one eat and drink of your Eucharist but those baptized in the name of the Lord; to this, too the saying of the Lord is applicable: 'Do not give to dogs what is sacred'". -Ch. 9:5
"On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure. However, no one quarreling with his brother may join your meeting until they are reconciled; your sacrifice must not be defiled. For here we have the saying of the Lord: 'In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice; for I am a mighty King, says the Lord; and my name spreads terror among the nations.'" -Ch 14
The Eucharist in 90 A.D. (perhaps as late as 106 A.D.)

St. Ignatius was a disciple of the Apostle John. Is it not believeable that St. Ignatius was conveying the words of his Master as written by his mentor, St. John in John 6:53?

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans starts:
“ 1:1 Ignatius who is also Theophorus, unto Polycarp (see below) who is bishop of the church of the Smyrnaeans or rather who hath for his bishop God the Father and Jesus Christ, abundant greeting
1:2 to the church of God the Father and of Jesus Christ the Beloved, which hath been mercifully endowed with every grace,
1:3 being filled with faith and love and lacking in no grace, most reverend and bearing holy treasures;
1:4 to the church which is in Smyrna (St. Polycarp, Bishop) of Asia in a blameless spirit and in the word of God abundant greeting.
1:5 I give glory to Jesus Christ the God who bestowed such wisdom upon you;
1:6 for I have perceived that ye are established in faith immovable,
1:7 being as it were nailed on the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ,”
(snip to Chapter 6, Paragraph 6 hjj)
“6:6 But mark ye those who hold strange doctrine touching the grace of Jesus Christ which came to us, how that they are contrary to the mind of God.
6:7 They (who hold strange doctrines) have no care for love, none for the widow, none for the orphan, none for the afflicted, none for the prisoner, none for the hungry or thirsty.
6:8 THEY (who hold strange doctrines) ABSTAIN FROM EUCHARIST AND PRAYER,
6:9 BECAUSE THEY (who hold strange doctrines) ALLOW NOT THAT THE EUCHARIST IS THE FLESH OF OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, WHICH FLESH SUFFERED FOR OUR SINS, AND WHICH THE FATHER OF HIS GOODNESS RAISED UP."

"7:1 They (who hold strange doctrines) therefore that gainsay (“deny” see below) the good gift of God perish by their questionings.
7:2 But it were expedient for them to have love, that they may also rise again.
7:3 It is therefore meet that ye should abstain from such ( people who hold strange doctrines) and not speak of them (these people who hold these strange doctrines) either privately or in public;
7:4 but should give heed to the Prophets, and especially to the Gospel, wherein the passion is shown unto us and the resurrection is accomplished.”
Now for some from the Second Century through Augustine

Ignatius of Antioch

"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]). Justin Martyr

"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).
Irenaeus

"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33-32 [A.D. 189]).

"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life-flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (ibid., 5:2). Clement of Alexandria

"'Eat my flesh,' [Jesus] says, 'and drink my blood.' The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children" (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).
Tertullian

"[T]here is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, except it believe whilst it is in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvation, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh which actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed [in baptism], in order that the soul may be cleansed . . . the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands [in confirmation], that the soul also may be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feeds [in the Eucharist] on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul likewise may be filled with God" (The Resurrection of the Dead 8 [A.D. 210]).
Hippolytus

"'And she [Wisdom] has furnished her table' [Prov. 9:2] . . . refers to his [Christ's] honored and undefiled body and blood, which day by day are administered and offered sacrificially at the spiritual divine table, as a memorial of that first and ever-memorable table of the spiritual divine supper [i.e., the Last Supper]" (Fragment from Commentary on Proverbs [A.D. 217]).
Origen

"Formerly there was baptism in an obscure way . . . now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as he himself says: 'My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink' [John 6:56]" (Homilies on Numbers 7:2 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian of Carthage

"He [Paul] threatens, moreover, the stubborn and forward, and denounces them, saying, 'Whosoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord' [1 Cor. 11:27]. All these warnings being scorned and contemned-[lapsed Christians will often take Communion] before their sin is expiated, before confession has been made of their crime, before their conscience has been purged by sacrifice and by the hand of the priest, before the offense of an angry and threatening Lord has been appeased, [and so] violence is done to his body and blood; and they sin now against their Lord more with their hand and mouth than when they denied their Lord" (The Lapsed 15-16 [A.D. 251]).
Council of Nicaea I

"It has come to the knowledge of the holy and great synod that, in some districts and cities, the deacons administer the Eucharist to the presbyters [i.e., priests], whereas neither canon nor custom permits that they who have no right to offer [the Eucharistic sacrifice] should give the Body of Christ to them that do offer [it]" (Canon 18 [A.D. 325]).
Aphraahat the Persian Sage

"After having spoken thus [at the Last Supper], the Lord rose up from the place where he had made the Passover and had given his body as food and his blood as drink, and he went with his disciples to the place where he was to be arrested. But he ate of his own body and drank of his own blood, while he was pondering on the dead. With his own hands the Lord presented his own body to be eaten, and before he was crucified he gave his blood as drink" (Treatises 12:6 [A.D. 340]).
Cyril of Jerusalem

"The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ" (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350]).

"Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master's declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by the faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ. . . . [Since you are] fully convinced that the apparent bread is not bread, even though it is sensible to the taste, but the body of Christ, and that the apparent wine is not wine, even though the taste would have it so, . . . partake of that bread as something spiritual, and put a cheerful face on your soul" (ibid., 22:6, 9). Ambrose of Milan

"Perhaps you may be saying, 'I see something else; how can you assure me that I am receiving the body of Christ?' It but remains for us to prove it. And how many are the examples we might use! . . . Christ is in that sacrament, because it is the body of Christ" (The Mysteries 9:50, 58 [A.D. 390]).
Theodore of Mopsuestia

"When [Christ] gave the bread he did not say, 'This is the symbol of my body,' but, 'This is my body.' In the same way, when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say, 'This is the symbol of my blood,' but, 'This is my blood'; for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements] after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit not according to their nature, but receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord. We ought . . . not regard [the elements] merely as bread and cup, but as the body and blood of the Lord, into which they were transformed by the descent of the Holy Spirit" (Catechetical Homilies 5:1 [A.D. 405]).
Augustine

"Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, 'This is my body' [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands" (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).
"I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord's Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ" (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).


There is nothing mentioned by Christ of the above, The E is not inthe teaching of the Bible any where, it is an incorparated pagan rite.

The pagans believed that the god worshiped somehow became the food they ate, The RCC carried this over in their rites of the RCC church.

When are people going to realize how paganistic the RCC is?
 

RoboOp

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#30
Doctrinal error was rampant even in the time of the apostles.

Have you noticed how much of the NT epistles are addressing/correcting erorr, or at least referring to it?

So again, just from reading the New Testament, it's pretty clear that doctrinal error and heresy were rampant in the time of the apostles. How much more so after the apostles passed away!

I've always known that everything went sour after the apostles passed away. So any error from organized "church" after the time of the apostles is no surprise.

The truth (regarding everything) is in the scriptures, period. (Not "church history" or church tradition or any other source.)

And when considering the errors and heresy of the Catholic church, there's a whole lot more to consider than just the Eucharist stuff.

#1 heresy: you should pray to Mary [wow what a heresy!!!]

[And don't they also teach that Mary was a perpetual virgin, and not only that, but sinless??? Wooooaah, blow me down! Do they really believe that???]

#2 error: church is led by priests [huh??? wow what a confusion of the Old Testament temple worship, and the New Testament church!]

#3 error: only special holy famous dead people are "saints" [In the Bible all true believers in Jesus are saints, because they've been made holy because their sins are washed away, praise God! How the Catholic church clouds this precious truth with their erroneous usage of this precious Bible word "saint".]

And the list goes on and on.......... but I'll stop there.

Bottom line: read the Bible, believe the Bible, not the Catholic church (or any church when it differs from the Bible), amen!
 
May 3, 2009
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#31
The Real Presence


The doctrine of the Real Presence asserts that in the Holy Eucharist, Jesus is literally and wholly present—body and blood, soul and divinity—under the appearances of bread and wine. Evangelicals and Fundamentalists frequently attack this doctrine as "unbiblical," but the Bible is forthright in declaring it (cf. 1 Cor. 10:16–17, 11:23–29; and, most forcefully, John 6:32–71).

The early Church Fathers interpreted these passages literally. In summarizing the early Fathers’ teachings on Christ’s Real Presence, renowned Protestant historian of the early Church J. N. D. Kelly, writes: "Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Savior’s body and blood" (Early Christian Doctrines, 440).

From the Church’s early days, the Fathers referred to Christ’s presence in the Eucharist. Kelly writes: "Ignatius roundly declares that . . . [t]he bread is the flesh of Jesus, the cup his blood. Clearly he intends this realism to be taken strictly, for he makes it the basis of his argument against the Docetists’ denial of the reality of Christ’s body. . . . Irenaeus teaches that the bread and wine are really the Lord’s body and blood. His witness is, indeed, all the more impressive because he produces it quite incidentally while refuting the Gnostic and Docetic rejection of the Lord’s real humanity" (ibid., 197–98).

"Hippolytus speaks of ‘the body and the blood’ through which the Church is saved, and Tertullian regularly describes the bread as ‘the Lord’s body.’ The converted pagan, he remarks, ‘feeds on the richness of the Lord’s body, that is, on the Eucharist.’ The realism of his theology comes to light in the argument, based on the intimate relation of body and soul, that just as in baptism the body is washed with water so that the soul may be cleansed, so in the Eucharist ‘the flesh feeds upon Christ’s body and blood so that the soul may be filled with God.’ Clearly his assumption is that the Savior’s body and blood are as real as the baptismal water. Cyprian’s attitude is similar. Lapsed Christians who claim communion without doing penance, he declares, ‘do violence to his body and blood, a sin more heinous against the Lord with their hands and mouths than when they denied him.’ Later he expatiates on the terrifying consequences of profaning the sacrament, and the stories he tells confirm that he took the Real Presence literally" (ibid., 211–12).


Ignatius of Antioch


"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).


Justin Martyr


"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).


Irenaeus


"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).

"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (ibid., 5:2).


Clement of Alexandria


"’Eat my flesh,’ [Jesus] says, ‘and drink my blood.’ The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children" (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).


Tertullian


"[T]here is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, except it believe whilst it is in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvation, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh which actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed [in baptism], in order that the soul may be cleansed . . . the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands [in confirmation], that the soul also may be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feeds [in the Eucharist] on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul likewise may be filled with God" (The Resurrection of the Dead 8 [A.D. 210]).


Hippolytus


"‘And she [Wisdom] has furnished her table’ [Prov. 9:2] . . . refers to his [Christ’s] honored and undefiled body and blood, which day by day are administered and offered sacrificially at the spiritual divine table, as a memorial of that first and ever-memorable table of the spiritual divine supper [i.e.,
the Last Supper]" (Fragment from Commentary on Proverbs [A.D. 217]).


Origen


"Formerly there was baptism in an obscure way . . . now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as he himself says: ‘My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink’ [John 6:55]" (Homilies on Numbers 7:2 [A.D. 248]).


Cyprian of Carthage


"He [Paul] threatens, moreover, the stubborn and forward, and denounces them, saying, ‘Whosoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. All these warnings being scorned and contemned—[lapsed Christians will often take Communion] before their sin is expiated, before confession has been made of their crime, before their conscience has been purged by sacrifice and by the hand of the priest, before the offense of an angry and threatening Lord has been appeased, [and so] violence is done to his body and blood; and they sin now against their Lord more with their hand and mouth than when they denied their Lord" (The Lapsed 15–16 [A.D. 251]).


Council of Nicaea I


"It has come to the knowledge of the holy and great synod that, in some districts and cities, the deacons administer the Eucharist to the presbyters [i.e., priests], whereas neither canon nor custom permits that they who have no right to offer [the Eucharistic sacrifice] should give the Body of Christ to them that do offer [it]" (Canon 18 [A.D. 325]).


Aphraahat the Persian Sage


"After having spoken thus [at the Last Supper], the Lord rose up from the place where he had made the Passover and had given his body as food and his blood as drink, and he went with his disciples to the place where he was to be arrested. But he ate of his own body and drank of his own blood, while he was pondering on the dead. With his own hands the Lord presented his own body to be eaten, and before he was crucified he gave his blood as drink" (Treatises 12:6 [A.D. 340]).


Cyril of Jerusalem


"The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ" (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350]).

"Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by the faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ. . . . [Since you are] fully convinced that the apparent bread is not bread, even though it is sensible to the taste, but the body of Christ, and that the apparent wine is not wine, even though the taste would have it so, . . . partake of that bread as something spiritual, and put a cheerful face on your soul" (ibid., 22:6, 9).


Ambrose of Milan


"Perhaps you may be saying, ‘I see something else; how can you assure me that I am receiving the body of Christ?’ It but remains for us to prove it. And how many are the examples we might use! . . . Christ is in that sacrament, because it is the body of Christ" (The Mysteries 9:50, 58 [A.D. 390]).


Theodore of Mopsuestia


"When [Christ] gave the bread he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my body,’ but, ‘This is my body.’ In the same way, when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my blood,’ but, ‘This is my blood’; for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements] after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit not according to their nature, but receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord. We ought . . . not regard [the elements] merely as bread and cup, but as the body and blood of the Lord, into which they were transformed by the descent of the Holy Spirit" (Catechetical Homilies 5:1 [A.D. 405]).


Augustine


"Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands" (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

"I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ" (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

...

"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction" (ibid., 272).


Council of Ephesus


"We will necessarily add this also. Proclaiming the death, according to the flesh, of the only-begotten Son of God, that is Jesus Christ, confessing his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension into heaven, we offer the unbloody sacrifice in the churches, and so go on to the mystical thanksgivings, and are sanctified, having received his holy flesh and the precious blood of Christ the Savior of us all. And not as common flesh do we receive it; God forbid: nor as of a man sanctified and associated with the Word according to the unity of worth, or as having a divine indwelling, but as truly the life-giving and very flesh of the Word himself. For he is the life according to his nature as God, and when he became united to his flesh, he made it also to be life-giving" (Session 1, Letter of Cyril to Nestorius [A.D. 431]).
 
May 3, 2009
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#32
There is nothing mentioned by Christ of the above, The E is not inthe teaching of the Bible any where, it is an incorparated pagan rite.

hmmmm. Wonder what type of bible do you have? Does it include John? Does it include anything of Paul?

I'll accept you as an expert about "pagans". Nothing like first-hand knowledge. ;)

Try reading John 6. If you read any of the posts in this thread, you should encounter a number of other bible passages.

BTW, the EUCHARIST IS THE CENTER OF CHRISTIANITY. Not just of its beliefs, or an important belief, BUT THE BELIEF.

The pagans believed that the god worshiped somehow became the food they ate, The RCC carried this over in their rites of the RCC church.

Interesting. Like I said about first-hand knowledge ....

Funny, isn't it, how all, ALL, the Apostolic Churches believe in the Eucharist, and have made it the CENTER of Christianity.

How old is your "church"?

In Christ.
quote]
 
T

thefightinglamb

Guest
#33
Another clear question to ask is...

So Catholics believe the bread and wine are the Lord's physical body, and thus they bow down to it...all Catholic churches do this if you are unfamiliar with them (one of the strangest things I saw when I first was in a catholic church...they have a place where they keep the 'consecrated bread'--they call it 'the consecrated host'--and everyone is suppose to bow towards it when they enter the church...

Anyway...the question is so is the Lord inside of you or not?!? I believe the Catholic church would push it more outside of you into communion or the physical 'Roman Catholic Church' or into 'priests' or into various other things...I just remember when they confess, many of them actually bow down before the priest as they take him to be God manifested...

Back to the question, so the Lord who is in your heart, is He the same Lord who is in the bread and wine? And , if they are the same, why should the Lord of your heart bow before the Lord in the bread and wine?!?

God bless--this has conmuffled me for a while
tony
 

RoboOp

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#34
eric51:

1. Do you pray to Mary?

2. Was Mary sinless?

3. Do you call your church leaders "priests"?

4. What is a "saint" (in the New Testament)?
 

RoboOp

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#35
And do you believe that if you're not good enough to go to heaven, and not bad enough to go to hell, that you will go to "pergatory", and then other people can pray you into heaven?
 

RoboOp

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#36
And do you believe that the Pope's writings are infallible?
 

RoboOp

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#37
And do you believe that church leaders shouldn't marry (and where is that in the Bible)?
 
May 3, 2009
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#38
What proof do you have that the species becomes Christ through a supernatural process? If I gave you a piece of cake and told you that it had supernaturally transformed into a pussy cat, despite it not appearing so, would you believe me? You are really calling a piece of wafer (bread) Christ, are you not? What part of Christ's body is the wafer? Is it his toe, or his head, or finger? Is it His whole person?

Proof? None. Evidence, my faith that Jesus exists, that He uttered the words in John 6,and that the Early Christians believed it and wrote about it, and that the Church Jesus founded teaches it. This is my evidence and that constitutes my Faith. Given how you express your skepticism, I find it difficult to understand that you believe in Christ. What proof do you have that Jesus exists; that a man was killed, resurrected and ascended? That is just as hard to believe as believing that a species becomes His Body and Blood. Yet, you believe the former but not the latter. Interesting.

The whole nature of the Eucharist is meant to be a memorial, a remembrance:

1Co 11:25 After the same manner also hetook the cup, when he had supped, saying, Thiscupisthenewtestamentinmyblood:thisdoye,as oft asyedrinkit,inremembranceofme.

Have you read my posts? the Greek word is "amnenesis"[may be misspelling it] and it translates into english quite differently. Go back and read. Assuming your are interested.

Christ did not say, "as often as you drink it, you actually drink my blood". He said to do it to remember Him. You don't remember someone if they are actually present there with you in the bread and wine as you claim happens.

See my comment above.




I believe the consecrated wafer is still a wafer and the wine is still wine, after consecration. Sure, we can believe anything we like, but that doesn't make it so. If I believe that my piece of cake has changed into a pussy cat, there is nothing you can say to convince me otherwise if I believe it to be so. In fact I could gather a whole heap of people who believe the same, and confirm that it is indeed a pussy cat. Yet...all manner of logic and all scientific tests on the piece of cake would prove it is still a piece of cake and not a cat. That's not faith, that is lunacy. Imagine if that same sort of faith was applied to Christ. Christ did not resurrect from the dead, but rather, we are to believe by faith that it was so, and though it does not appear to have happened, we believe it does, supernaturally. Or to healing, imagine a person who is sick, they are prayed for, they are told to believe they are well, despite the evidence contrary to it and they never get better. Yet they convince themselves they are healthy and well despite being sick. Makes no sense, at all.

Don't follow your reasoning here. What proof do you have that Christ was resurrected? NONE. Yet, I assume you believe by faith that he did. Yet, you have no faith, despite the fact that he repeatedly said that this is His Body, eat it in "remembrance" [amnenesis] of me. He emphasized we were to literally eat, gnaw, chew on His body. Unless, you don't accept John 6 as scriptural.

In Christ
 
May 3, 2009
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#39
Doctrinal error was rampant even in the time of the apostles.

Have you noticed how much of the NT epistles are addressing/correcting erorr, or at least referring to it?

Yes.

So again, just from reading the New Testament, it's pretty clear that doctrinal error and heresy were rampant in the time of the apostles. How much more so after the apostles passed away!

Yes, but Jesus and the Apostles teach the Eucharistic sacrifice. Were they guilty of apostasy and error? Early Church Fathers believed it,and they are ECF because they are orthodox for most part. Church has always taught it. Together, all this evidence is QUITE COMPELLING.

I've always known that everything went sour after the apostles passed away. So any error from organized "church" after the time of the apostles is no surprise.

Sound like a Mormon. Did Joseph Smith restore the true Church in your eyes.

Apostles, Jesus, taught the Eucharist. Evidently, you are selective in what you believe or want to understand, in scripture.

The truth (regarding everything) is in the scriptures, period. (Not "church history" or church tradition or any other source.)

Eucharist is in scriptures. Does the failure of the "word" to appear, trouble you? Words are less important than meaning.

And Sola Scriptura fails its own test: it is NOT taught in the bible. So, your belief in Sola Scriptura, is heresy, error.

And when considering the errors and heresy of the Catholic church, there's a whole lot more to consider than just the Eucharist stuff.

"Eucharistic stuff"? Jesus taught that Eucharistic stuff.

#1 heresy: you should pray to Mary [wow what a heresy!!!]

[And don't they also teach that Mary was a perpetual virgin, and not only that, but sinless??? Wooooaah, blow me down! Do they really believe that???]

Mary is the Mother of God. That is in the NT.

#2 error: church is led by priests [huh??? wow what a confusion of the Old Testament temple worship, and the New Testament church!]

"Priest" comes from greek, "presbyteros", meaning "elder". That is in the NT.

#3 error: only special holy famous dead people are "saints" [In the Bible all true believers in Jesus are saints, because they've been made holy because their sins are washed away, praise God! How the Catholic church clouds this precious truth with their erroneous usage of this precious Bible word "saint".]

A saint who has been canonized by the Church is an individual whose life of faith was exemplary and is considered a model for others to follow. Nothing wrong with that. Eastern Orthodox, Armenian, Assyrian, Chaldean Churches, all have saints.

And the list goes on and on.......... but I'll stop there.

Yes, I would stop there. You have made no sense so far.

Bottom line: read the Bible, believe the Bible, not the Catholic church (or any church when it differs from the Bible), amen!

Bible teaches Eucharist, teaches Mary is Mother of God, teaches priests, bishops, are officers and leaders of the Church. And, teaches Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth and shall endure to end of time.

Afraid, your idea of errors is erroneous.

In Christ
 
May 3, 2009
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#40
The Eucharist is the center of the Apostolic Faith. Why is the Eucharist the center of worship by Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, Assyrian, Armenian, Chaldean and other apostolic Churches? The answer can be had in two words: Jesus Christ.


The Eucharist: Jesus Christ himself

The Eucharist is the center because Jesus Christ is the center of our life and worship. The Church still professes, as it has for two millennia, that the Eucharist is nothing less than Jesus Christ himself. For example, The Second Vatican Council called the Eucharist the center and the summit of the Christian life. How could these bishops be so bold in their affirmation? Does not such a statement show that the Church places too much emphasis on the Eucharist? Perhaps the Protestant criticisms of our insistence on the sacraments are valid. Why this insistence on the centrality of the Eucharist?

The main reason for so great a confidence resides in the meaning of the Eucharist: Jesus Christ is here on earth again in the Eucharist, just as he was two thousand years ago. He is not just present in memory. He is not just spiritually present. He is on earth, body and blood, soul and divinity. The doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is more than a convenient belief; it is an absolute necessity. Why? Because the whole pattern of scriptural teaching demands it and because the Church could not continue in its life and work without the bodily presence of Jesus on earth today.

The Real Presence is at the heart of every Mass, but its roots go far back into the history of God's ancient people, the Jews. The sacrificial lamb at the annual Passover meant reenactment of the Exodus. The Passover liturgy used by the Jews for centuries places into the mouth of the eldest son the question: "Why is this night different from all others?"

The answer celebrates the Lord Yahweh who redeemed his chosen people from the darkness of Egypt on this night. The words and actions of the Eucharistic celebration also reenact the Last Supper of Jesus and celebrate the Messiah himself. Just as the lamb in each Jewish household symbolized the original offering of a lamb on the first night of Passover, so every Mass gives a converted Host that symbolizes Jesus' original offering of himself. The prophets of the Old Testament often pictured salvation in the messianic age as a second Exodus with the imagery of the pillar of fire and with the glory of God (kabod) dwelling in the midst of his people (see Isa. 4:5-6; Zech. 2:5).

The meaning of the original Passover and its renewal in the future days of the Messiah is summed up in the promise to Abraham, "I will be . . . a God to you and your descendants after you" (Gen. 17:7). This promise stands at the center of the Old Testament promise of salvation that we have inherited. Prophet after prophet reiterated it. Isaiah especially announced the Immanuel theme in 7: 14 ("The virgin shall conceive and bear a Son and shall call his name Immanuel") and declared his supremacy in chapter 9 verses 6 and 7.

But the promise of God dwelling with his people pervaded the prophetic hope. Jeremiah a century later placed at the center of the new covenant this expectation: "I will be their God and they shall be my people" Oer. 31 :33). Within a few years, the exilic prophet Ezekiel promised a new heart and a new spirit for God's people. Again, the renewed relationship was at the heart of his message: "I will be your God and you will be my people" (Ezek. 36:22-32).


Former enemies now friends

Lest we think that this promise of God's presence and person living in and among his people was limited to the people of Israel, the prophets teach that in the day of God's renewed covenant the borders of God's love will be pushed back, and all nations will be invited to God's holy mountain (Isa. 2:1-5). The former enemies of God's people (Egypt, Assyria) will now be counted among God's holy people (Isa. 19:18-25). This dual background of expectations for the messianic age almost require the Real Presence and the catholic nature of the Church. The Church must be universal to fulfill the prophets' message, and God must really dwell among his people to satisfy all that was lacking in the first covenant.

The teaching of the New Testament builds on this Old Testament background with its emphasis on salvation as a new experience of the presence of God. The act of God's Son becoming a man shows at once his humility and his desire to be with his people. From the very beginning, in Matthew's account ofJesus' birth, the Immanuel theme of Isaiah pervades the story. The name Jesus, a Hellenization of the Hebrew name Joshua, means "the Lord is salvation," as the angel explains to Joseph (Matt. 2:21).

But salvation is explained further with the promise that God has come to be with his people. God, living with his beloved people, is salvation. Matthew's distinctive way of telling Jesus' life and ministry ends on the same theme of God's presence when Jesus tells the apostles, "I will be with you until the consummation of the age" (Matt. 28:20). Little wonder then that Jesus, in Matthew's account of the Last Supper, adds the words "with you" to his promise to drink the cup once again in the future fulfillment of God's kingdom (compare Mark 14:25 with Matt. 26:29). Jesus' ministry of salvation brought more than forgiveness of sins; he intended to give his own presence to his people as an eternal gift.

What form would that presence take? Would he leave them a book to read so they might remember him? Perhaps a letter would do? If they were careful and devout enough, they could probably muster enough strength and courage to remember his ministry and continue it. But Jesus did not leave the problem of his continuing presence to the fickle powers of his apostles. Nor did he leave them with a book or letter, though those would come in time.


Christ's understandable action

Rather, he gathered them together to do something each and every man could understand. He gathered them for a meal and fed them. But this meal meant more than a time of fellowship and far more than a simple occasion of thinking on Jesus. Jesus transformed ordinary bread into his body and everyday wine into his blood. The words from his sacred lips, "This is my body," assured them his own person would continue on with them in the tasks he had given them to do. He would not leave them orphans. He would be with them. Matthew's account of Jesus' life assures us that the Eucharist we celebrate today is nothing less than the presence of the same Jesus who first broke the bread that night long ago.

The Real (bodily) Presence of Jesus today is confirmed by the Greek word commonly translated "remembrance."The phrase "in remembrance of me" occurs only in Paul's (1 Cor. 11:23-26) and Luke's (Luke 22:19) accounts of the institution of the Lord's Supper. It is likely that Paul passed this down to Luke, since they had close associations in ministry together.

Unfortunately, our English word "remember" cannot begin to do justice to the Greek anamnesis used by Paul and Luke. Our word "remembrance" suggests that we think about Jesus' life and death in our minds as an event that is in the past for us. There is no doubt that idea is included, but the Greek word means more. Anamnesis means that the thing to be "remembered" is an otherworldly reality that is made present to the one "remembering." The past events of Jesus' life are taken up into the heavenly realms and is now made real to the worshiping community.

Thus, when Jesus says, "Do this in remembrance of me," he is calling on his apostles to reenact the night and giving his assurance to them is that he will be with them in the future reenactment just as much as he was with them that first night. Anamnesis is not primarily a mental event on our part; it is a liturgical event on the part of Jesus' appointed representatives, the apostles and their successors. We remember Jesus in our minds because he is here again just as he was with the apostles-physically.

The physical presence of Jesus on the altar underlies Paul's rhetorical questions in 1 Corinthians 10: 16,17. These references to the Eucharist occur in a context of admonitions to avoid idolatry. Why should we avoid associations with false religions? Why should we not participate in pagan ritual? Paul's question in verse 16 assumes a powerful truth: "Isn't the cup of blessing that we bless a participation in the blood of Christ? Isn't the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?" The Corinthians already know the answer to this question. Yes! This meal is a real participation, a genuine communion in these heavenly realities-the body and blood of Christ. The union with the one Lord excludes participation in the rituals of other gods.

Paul explicitly confirms this: "You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons" (10:21). Such strong language is based on the belief that Paul had already given to the Church at Corinth. This celebration that was so central to the life of the church involved a real communion with Christ. And not just with Christ in general, but with his body and his blood.

No wonder then that Paul emphasized that the Church is one body (see 1 Cor. 12:12-30). But how do the different people become one body? Chapter 10 verse 17 says that it's through partaking of the one body of Christ via the consecrated bread: "Since there is (only) one bread, we though many are actually one body because we all share in the one bread." How could bread make us one? Impossible! But the one body of Jesus Christ has the power to make us one.

We the Church are one body because we are the body of Jesus Christ in the world today. We are his body because we nourish ourselves on his body. That same underlying belief in the Real Presence is behind Paul's admonition not to partake unworthily. How could a person be guilty of the body and blood of Christ by eating and drinking unworthily if this bread and this cup were not in fact the body and blood of Christ?


The Center of liturgy: Jesus Christ

Consider the Mass. To many non-Catholics and non-E. Orthodox, especially low-church Protestants, the Mass seems to be an elaborate form of worship that bears little resemblance to the simplicity of New Testament worship. But what appears as a complicated series of liturgical movements is in fact a structure of worship that focuses primarily on Jesus Christ as the Redeemer of mankind. The Eucharistic celebration and the Communion which occurs at the end of every Mass is the culmination of an entire service that is built around the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Church sees the events of Christ's life as saving events, occurrences in the life of our Redeemer that include us as his redeemed.

This belief explains why from the very beginning the Church has always included a reading from the Gospels in the liturgy. Whereas some churches may not read from the Gospels in worship for months, the Catholic and E. Orthodox Churches requires its pastors to lay before Christ's sheep the saving stories recorded for us in one of the four Gospels at every Mass. More often than not, the events or words of Jesus' life are the direct subject of the homily. In this way, the attentive listener (or reader) cannot mistake the central theme of worship. The Church calls the faithful Christian to focus his attention on his Lord and Master, Jesus Christ. Why?

Because Catholicism and E. Orthodoxy teach that these saving events in the life of our Lord are not simply dead events of the past that happen to be recorded in the Bible. They are historical realities that followed him into heaven and are again present to us on earth in the Gospel readings. When the Canaanite woman came to Jesus begging that her daughter be released from demonic influence, Jesus declared that her faith was great (Matt 15:21-28). This declaration is preceded by our Lord's apparent rebuke to the woman for attempting to cross social boundaries and to receive the promised salvation given to the Jews.

Knowing that Matthew was written for a Jewish-Christian audience, we can see clearly the Gospel writer's intention. Jesus Christ came for all people. He came to save even the despised of the world and to receive any who come to him in faith. Yet these truths are not ours simply by remembering what he did or said in the case of the Canaanite woman. They are present realities because Jesus still reaches out from heaven to all peoples of the earth and receives them when they come to him in faith.

The Church does not leave this totally up to us, either. It incorporates invitations to come to Jesus in faith within the structure of worship itself. When the priest kisses the altar upon entering the Church, we too are greeting Christ who is symbolized by the altar and inviting his presence into our lives. Then when we beg Christ for mercy in the penitential rite ("Christ have mercy"), we are exactly in the position of the Canaanite woman who saw Jesus as her daughter's only hope. Then in the Communion Rite proper, we also pray through our priest, "Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church."

Finally, when we are invited to receive the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, we respond with the words of another outsider, the centurion: "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you but only say the words and I [my soul] shall be healed." Here we are begging the Lord Jesus to be merciful to us as he once was to the woman who was an outsider but who also had great faith.

The events that took place in ancient history are present again because Christ, through the word of God read and preached, is present again. That encounter with the foreign woman is an essential part of the heavenly reign of Christ and the truths this encounter embodies are ours by the liturgical reading and preaching.


Jesus Christ in Word and Deed

Jesus came preaching the kingdom of God, but he also demonstrated the reality of the message by his life. His deeds confirmed the truth of his words. The summaries of his ministry recorded in the Gospels are enlightening. He taught with authority (Matt. 7:28-29). Mark especially connects Jesus' teaching ministry with his power of exorcism (Mark 1:21ff).

When John the Baptist is dismayed at his arrest and begins to doubt that Jesus is indeed the coming one, Jesus response points to his deeds as proof of his being the Messiah (see Matt. 11:2ff). Other New Testament authors also confirm the importance of Jesus' ministry in word and deed (see Heb 2:1-4).

The New Testament teaches that the Church must be like Christ, powerful in word and deed too. The early Church could not miss the message of Jesus' parable of the sheep and the goats. Judgment will be based on good deeds done in his name (Matt. 25:31-46). They and we must preach the gospel to every creature, but we must also give a cup of cold water in the name of Christ (Matt. 10:42).

James is not at all strange in his insistence that a faith that has no works is a dead faith Gas. 2: 14-26); he is simply following the clear teaching of our Lord. It is he who does the will of God that will enter into the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 7:21-26). Paul, too, commands the Christians at Colossae to be active in word and deed for the glory of God (Col. 3:17).

Following this pattern of word and deed, our Lord commanded his apostles to have a twofold ministry of teaching and sacraments, "Go, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to keep everything I have commanded you" (Matt. 28:19-20). Ministry of the word (teaching) is complemented by a sacramental ministry in actions (baptism).

This pattern of word and deed accompanying and confirming each other also makes the Eucharist a necessary component in the fullness of worship because both are essential for the health of the Church. The Eucharist, as Augustine said, is the word made visible and the Word made visible. The Church can only fulfill its mission given by Jesus by verbal instruction joined to visible demonstration of the truths of the gospel. If preaching and teaching are a necessary pan of the worship and work of the Church, the sacramental ministry of the Church is also necessary for the continuance of the body of Christ.


The Eucharist becomes an absolute necessity for the Church and the individual Christian when seen in the light of its central meaning and the Church's task of bring all men into the unity of faith. In Jesus Christ are not only all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Col. 2:3); he also has all authority in heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18). Only he can bring unity to believers by his power and love.

The Church Fathers and the medieval doctors were so impressed with the unitive power of the Eucharist that they called this the "sacrament of Church unity." Ignatius of Antioch, within living memory of the apostles, stressed the common chalice as a symbol of the unity found in the blood of Christ.[Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Phildelphians 4:1: "There is only one chalice that you may be united in the blood of Christ."] In the middle of the third century, when the Church was being torn apart by schism and persecution, Cyprian insisted on the Eucharist as symbol and an instrument of unity: "When the Lord calls his body the bread which is made up of many grains joined together, he means by that the union of Christian people, which he contained within himself."[Cyprian of Carthage, Epistle 69, ch. 2.] No wonder that Thomas Aquinas wrote, "In this sacrament the whole mystery of our salvation is held.[Summa Theologiae, q.83, a. 4.] The Eucharist, more than any other sacrament, symbolizes the Church and each member of the body of Christ joined with one another.

We saw Paul teaching in 1 Corinthians 10:14-17 that the Eucharist is a real participation in the body and blood of Christ. In that same text he drew on the known celebration of the Eucharist as having only one loaf to underscore that the body of Christ (the Church) is only one. In the mystery of God's plan, this one (physical) body of Christ symbolically reminds us that Christ founded only one Church.

At the same time that physical body really unites us to the one mystical body. Christ draws together people from every nation into a new society of faith. Their continued growth in faith is a process of being ever more deeply ingrafted into the body of Christ by the body of Christ. The Eucharist is absolutely necessary because the unity of the Church is perfectly proclaimed in it and because it brings about that unity in an increasing degree until Christ comes again.

As a Protestant, I began to see clearly that the lack of Eucharistic faith and celebration in most Protestant churches was directly linked to endless schism and disunity. Without frequent Eucharist the most vivid reminder of unity is eliminated. Without a deep faith in the Real Presence of Christ's body, the most important instrument of unity is removed from the hearts and minds of the faithful.

Soon I began to bask in the warmth of God's provision. He did not leave the problem of disunity to a human creativity that can be so easily misguided. His provision unites the faithful into his body by giving us nothing less than himself. The Catholic Church has no choice but to emphasize the Eucharist, for it is Christ alone who can bring his lost sheep into the Church so that there will be one shepherd and one flock (John 10:16
 
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