I am a bit confused by this discussion but one thing that does seem to stick out is the idea of entering God's rest...my understanding is that entering God's rest means that we rest from our own works of righteousness which are inadequate to save us and come under God's mantle of salvation...the sabbath was the day of rest that pointed to the one who would give us everlasting rest from our useless, futile works and that is Jesus..He is our rest..He is our finished work of righteousness..He gives us His righteousness in exchange for our sins that He bore the punishment for and rose again..Jesus says...Come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest...are you weary and heavy laden from your burden of sin..rest in Jesus
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F
(KJV+) Let us labourG4704 thereforeG3767 to enterG1525 intoG1519 thatG1565 rest,G2663 lestG3363 any manG5100 fallG4098 afterG1722 theG3588 sameG846exampleG5262 of unbelief.G543
unbelief - like in becoming Atheists?
Lets look up G543: Strong's
G543
ἀπείθεια
apeitheia
ap-i'-thi-ah
From G545; disbelief (obstinate and ): - disobedience, unbelief.
Thayer:
G543
apeitheia
Thayer Definition:
1) obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will
(ASV) Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.
(ESV) Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Rough Translation
(ABP+) We should hurryG4704 thenG3767 to enterG1525 intoG1519 thatG1565 G3588 rest,G2663 lestG2443 G3361 [3inG1722 4theG3588 5sameG1473 1anyoneG5100 6exampleG5262 2should fall]G4098 G3588 of disobedience.G543
Let "us" (Christians, self inclusive of the writer) take heed, (give diligence, strive,) "SO" (this is why we need to strive as Christians) "no one" (Us Christians) does not fall after the same example of disobedience.
being disobedient is the same as unbelief - Jn 3:36 (look at in Greek or any other trans besides KJV), Luk 12:43-f., Heb 5:9, 10:26.
If we believe that is impossible for a Christan to do so, then we are not taking heed, but being deceived.
unbelief - like in becoming Atheists?
Lets look up G543: Strong's
G543
ἀπείθεια
apeitheia
ap-i'-thi-ah
From G545; disbelief (obstinate and ): - disobedience, unbelief.
Thayer:
G543
apeitheia
Thayer Definition:
1) obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will
(ASV) Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.
(ESV) Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Rough Translation
(ABP+) We should hurryG4704 thenG3767 to enterG1525 intoG1519 thatG1565 G3588 rest,G2663 lestG2443 G3361 [3inG1722 4theG3588 5sameG1473 1anyoneG5100 6exampleG5262 2should fall]G4098 G3588 of disobedience.G543
Let "us" (Christians, self inclusive of the writer) take heed, (give diligence, strive,) "SO" (this is why we need to strive as Christians) "no one" (Us Christians) does not fall after the same example of disobedience.
being disobedient is the same as unbelief - Jn 3:36 (look at in Greek or any other trans besides KJV), Luk 12:43-f., Heb 5:9, 10:26.
If we believe that is impossible for a Christan to do so, then we are not taking heed, but being deceived.
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C
Thank you for this unadulterated question.
Through God's Spirit beckoning to them to come to the Light. Through the process of answering the knock on the door so their Savior can come and fellowship with them and tell them of all the goodness of God. Praise our God that He is longsuffering while knocking with bleeding knuckles. One just has to love our God in not giving up on sinners.
Through God's Spirit beckoning to them to come to the Light. Through the process of answering the knock on the door so their Savior can come and fellowship with them and tell them of all the goodness of God. Praise our God that He is longsuffering while knocking with bleeding knuckles. One just has to love our God in not giving up on sinners.
F
I don't need to prove anything because you need a loophole, you prove they were not Christians, sense you want proof they were members of the church but not saved. Second he said "us" does that mean the writer is included with unsaved people? As for your other 2 questions they mean nothing here and are only an attempt to find a way out of what is stated. So you need to go through Hebrews sense w know they were part of the church and we know they were Christians, you need to find a passage that's shows either 1. There are two groups or 2. They were not saved. Honestly I did not expect an answer like this from you, it shows you can't deal with the passage
M
Calm down.
I can deal with the message.
I don't need any loophole. A loophole for what?
I'm not "trying to find a way out" of anything. I don't have to.
If you're right in whatever you're asserting, great.
Is the Book of Acts filled with the disciples and apostles preaching to two groups continually? Is there nearly always an audience of people listening - and some believe and some don't?
Why is Hebrews absolutely NOT the same?
Does scripture say there were Israelites who did not partake of eternal life, that were some who did?
Are there not two groups of Hebrews (unbelievers and believers)?
Doesn't Paul describe his broken heart for his kinsmen after the flesh that he might save some (that he almost wished he could forfeit his own salvation for their sakes?)
Does he shake his raiment after contending with them for so long a time, telling them he would now be going to the gentiles? So, yes...much of New Testament scripture DOES involve 2 groups.
Isn't Jesus dealing with two groups of Israelites? - unbelievers and doubters and those who believed on Him?
My information says Hebrews was written much later than most other writings...in fact, just before Titus came. This is significant.
Here's how my copy of the Book of Hebrews starts:
Hebrews 1:1
God’s Final Word in His Son
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
"Second he said "us" does that mean the writer is included with unsaved people? "
I believe the writer is Paul, but that's not the issue - was the writer an HEBREW or not? - of course he would say "us".
Just as the other jewish apostles and disciples did when referring to their kin, as well as "us" when referring to those in Christ?
Is the writer not teaching about Who Jesus is? He is explaining that God formerly dealt with them through prophets, but in those last days has spoken to them through His Son - is he teaching them? or telling them something they knew for CERTAIN?
Is he not immediately launching into a recap of how God had previously dealt with the Hebrews?
"God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,"
Can we begin by agreeing that this Book was not written for gentiles (though certainly gentile Christians now believing and reading the Book can better understand the Old Covenant and history of the Hebrews)?
I can deal with the message.
I don't need any loophole. A loophole for what?
I'm not "trying to find a way out" of anything. I don't have to.
If you're right in whatever you're asserting, great.
Is the Book of Acts filled with the disciples and apostles preaching to two groups continually? Is there nearly always an audience of people listening - and some believe and some don't?
Why is Hebrews absolutely NOT the same?
Does scripture say there were Israelites who did not partake of eternal life, that were some who did?
Are there not two groups of Hebrews (unbelievers and believers)?
Doesn't Paul describe his broken heart for his kinsmen after the flesh that he might save some (that he almost wished he could forfeit his own salvation for their sakes?)
Does he shake his raiment after contending with them for so long a time, telling them he would now be going to the gentiles? So, yes...much of New Testament scripture DOES involve 2 groups.
Isn't Jesus dealing with two groups of Israelites? - unbelievers and doubters and those who believed on Him?
My information says Hebrews was written much later than most other writings...in fact, just before Titus came. This is significant.
Here's how my copy of the Book of Hebrews starts:
Hebrews 1:1
God’s Final Word in His Son
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
"Second he said "us" does that mean the writer is included with unsaved people? "
I believe the writer is Paul, but that's not the issue - was the writer an HEBREW or not? - of course he would say "us".
Just as the other jewish apostles and disciples did when referring to their kin, as well as "us" when referring to those in Christ?
Is the writer not teaching about Who Jesus is? He is explaining that God formerly dealt with them through prophets, but in those last days has spoken to them through His Son - is he teaching them? or telling them something they knew for CERTAIN?
Is he not immediately launching into a recap of how God had previously dealt with the Hebrews?
"God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,"
Can we begin by agreeing that this Book was not written for gentiles (though certainly gentile Christians now believing and reading the Book can better understand the Old Covenant and history of the Hebrews)?
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M
Alright.
I don't know what your final assertion is on whether or not justified believers have entered God's Rest.
Let's say for the sake of argument, in the way that really matters for us while we are still alive in the flesh, we HAVE entered into that Rest - God is no longer angry with us, as He was with the israelites who died in the wilderness and did not enter Caanan. We KNOW we have been (past tense) reconciled to an angry God through Christ. He is not angry with us.
Agree so far?
Christ Crucified was the propitiation for our sins.
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. - 1 John 2:2
hilasmos: propitiation
Original Word: ἱλασμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hilasmos
Phonetic Spelling: (hil-as-mos')
Short Definition: a propitiation, atoning sacrifice
Definition: a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice.
2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós ("propitiation").
(I think regardless of disagreements about Rest and so on, we have ALL agreed that we do still sin, and that we must confess our sins, and He is faithful to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, keeping us white and clean).
So, the once-lost condemned sinner is now a redeemed saint, cleansed and justified.
He will be and is being sanctified, he will be glorified.
Agree so far?
So look at this whole chapter, particularly the part that we have been in contention over:
Romans 8
Deliverance from Bondage
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
Our Victory in Christ
26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”
37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Is there really ANYTHING in this chapter that says God has not fully accomplished what He intended when He justifies (saves, reconciles) a sinner to Himself through Christ?
Is this chapter written for the comfort and assurance of those who BELIEVE (have been given pistis - the ability to know and love God, to set their minds on the Spirit; to be at peace, knowing they have eternal life; they know they can't be lost? Is there ANY condemnation for those in Christ Jesus)?
Here's the big issue:
6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Are people God has created anew; caused to be born again; bestowed with a spirit of adoption; given faith as a gift HOSTILE TO GOD?
are these people in whom God Himself has perfomed a miraculous work not even able to submit themselves to Him, and can in no way please Him?
Whay does this suggest about God's ability to do what He said He would do, and to do it completely and fully according to what HE REQUIRES AND DESIRES?
In other words, is Romans 8 describing different classes of Christians?
Or is it describing the lost as opposed to the saved?
I don't know what your final assertion is on whether or not justified believers have entered God's Rest.
Let's say for the sake of argument, in the way that really matters for us while we are still alive in the flesh, we HAVE entered into that Rest - God is no longer angry with us, as He was with the israelites who died in the wilderness and did not enter Caanan. We KNOW we have been (past tense) reconciled to an angry God through Christ. He is not angry with us.
Agree so far?
Christ Crucified was the propitiation for our sins.
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. - 1 John 2:2
hilasmos: propitiation
Original Word: ἱλασμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hilasmos
Phonetic Spelling: (hil-as-mos')
Short Definition: a propitiation, atoning sacrifice
Definition: a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice.
2434 hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. 2434 (hilasmós) is only used twice (1 Jn 2:2, 4:10) – both times of Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath, on all confessed sin. By the sacrifice of Himself, Jesus Christ provided the ultimate 2434 /hilasmós ("propitiation").
(I think regardless of disagreements about Rest and so on, we have ALL agreed that we do still sin, and that we must confess our sins, and He is faithful to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, keeping us white and clean).
So, the once-lost condemned sinner is now a redeemed saint, cleansed and justified.
He will be and is being sanctified, he will be glorified.
Agree so far?
So look at this whole chapter, particularly the part that we have been in contention over:
Romans 8
Deliverance from Bondage
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
Our Victory in Christ
26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”
37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Is there really ANYTHING in this chapter that says God has not fully accomplished what He intended when He justifies (saves, reconciles) a sinner to Himself through Christ?
Is this chapter written for the comfort and assurance of those who BELIEVE (have been given pistis - the ability to know and love God, to set their minds on the Spirit; to be at peace, knowing they have eternal life; they know they can't be lost? Is there ANY condemnation for those in Christ Jesus)?
Here's the big issue:
6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Are people God has created anew; caused to be born again; bestowed with a spirit of adoption; given faith as a gift HOSTILE TO GOD?
are these people in whom God Himself has perfomed a miraculous work not even able to submit themselves to Him, and can in no way please Him?
Whay does this suggest about God's ability to do what He said He would do, and to do it completely and fully according to what HE REQUIRES AND DESIRES?
In other words, is Romans 8 describing different classes of Christians?
Or is it describing the lost as opposed to the saved?
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C
I will respond tomorrow. But for now, please see the very first post of this thread as to where I stand on God's rest. We have entered Christ's rest (the rest from the heavy laden placed upon us by our expulsion from Eden and now our works are in Him and not in the flesh), but since we are not before God atm, we are not in God's rest (as the cloud of witnesses and Jesus and the angels) nor our sabbatical rest (our rest from Christ's toils).
M
original question:
Follow-up question:
Is there ever a time in this life the believer KNOWS he has been reconciled to God?
When and how does he know this?
What did Jesus say?
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. - John 5:24
Is this not the first resurrection? Born again? "but has passed out of death into life"
I don't want to go off topic, and I do not know if you are a futurist, but:
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. - Revelation 20:6
But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; - 1 Peter 2:9
Follow-up question:
Is there ever a time in this life the believer KNOWS he has been reconciled to God?
When and how does he know this?
What did Jesus say?
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. - John 5:24
Is this not the first resurrection? Born again? "but has passed out of death into life"
I don't want to go off topic, and I do not know if you are a futurist, but:
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. - Revelation 20:6
But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; - 1 Peter 2:9
M
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels - Hebrews 12:22
Don't you believe Jesus is reigning now in Heaven?
in Heavenly Jerusalem who is our mother?
His burden is light and easy - this is not toil.
He said rest for our souls. I have rest for mine. No guilt or fear. CLEAN. Going to be with Jesus with I die.
No doubts.
Anyway.
I've had enough of this for now.
Goodnight.
Don't you believe Jesus is reigning now in Heaven?
in Heavenly Jerusalem who is our mother?
His burden is light and easy - this is not toil.
He said rest for our souls. I have rest for mine. No guilt or fear. CLEAN. Going to be with Jesus with I die.
No doubts.
Anyway.
I've had enough of this for now.
Goodnight.
F
Im not hyper, I just have no idea why you would ask me to prove they were written to Christians, should not you be the one to try and find support they were not. This is not the book of acts, it is not a historical account.
Context. Period. Acts was written as an account of what happened as the Aposteles went their ways to differnt places preaching the word.
Hebrews is a book written directly to chiristians, for the the purpose of:
1. exhoriting them, to stay faithful and and showing them that Christ is above (better) than the law, in which false teachers were trying to bring them back under.
2. To scold them because they needed to be taugtht basic princlpes chpater 5.
3. to reveal to them why jesus came in human form, and to conitnue in the His covanant.
It is not an account of what happened, like Acts, it is a letter written to the church.
Even though I feel I the burden of proof is on you, I will show why we know they were Christians.
But you have so many separte statments, I will first answer them.
Sure, some Israelite fell through disobeidne. Some Christians may return to a life of sin. This still does not afect the context.
In the context, there are passages that show us without a doubt these were saved, and there is nothing between those passages and chapter 4 to support a change in groups. Or a chagne in audiences. Or even that there were two groups.
I will get to that.
Sure in Romans, yet this does not mean because Paul mentions Jews that were not saved to the Romans, that he was speaking to non-saved people in Romans. Again that letter was written to teh church, and if one is member of the Lord's church, he/she is saved. Again no kind of support to show he stopped addressing the church, and started addressing unebleivers.
Same answer above, this has nothign to do with the context of Hebrews.Your showing everything BUT hebrews.
You cant make a case with every sernio in the Bible to show what is being wriiten in a a certian book. That is like me saying since Jesus spoke to Satan in Matt 4:4, it is possible he was speaking to Satan in Jn 17.
We need to look at Hebrews, not every other account in scripture.
Sure, how do we know? Context. See where I am going with that?
That's fine, and why significant?
Context. Period. Acts was written as an account of what happened as the Aposteles went their ways to differnt places preaching the word.
Hebrews is a book written directly to chiristians, for the the purpose of:
1. exhoriting them, to stay faithful and and showing them that Christ is above (better) than the law, in which false teachers were trying to bring them back under.
2. To scold them because they needed to be taugtht basic princlpes chpater 5.
3. to reveal to them why jesus came in human form, and to conitnue in the His covanant.
It is not an account of what happened, like Acts, it is a letter written to the church.
Even though I feel I the burden of proof is on you, I will show why we know they were Christians.
But you have so many separte statments, I will first answer them.
Sure, some Israelite fell through disobeidne. Some Christians may return to a life of sin. This still does not afect the context.
In the context, there are passages that show us without a doubt these were saved, and there is nothing between those passages and chapter 4 to support a change in groups. Or a chagne in audiences. Or even that there were two groups.
I will get to that.
Sure in Romans, yet this does not mean because Paul mentions Jews that were not saved to the Romans, that he was speaking to non-saved people in Romans. Again that letter was written to teh church, and if one is member of the Lord's church, he/she is saved. Again no kind of support to show he stopped addressing the church, and started addressing unebleivers.
Same answer above, this has nothign to do with the context of Hebrews.Your showing everything BUT hebrews.
You cant make a case with every sernio in the Bible to show what is being wriiten in a a certian book. That is like me saying since Jesus spoke to Satan in Matt 4:4, it is possible he was speaking to Satan in Jn 17.
We need to look at Hebrews, not every other account in scripture.
Sure, how do we know? Context. See where I am going with that?
That's fine, and why significant?
This is also invalid, because of what the passage says. He is not saying "we" as in all hebrews, saved and unsaved, or in tour case "we" as in Hebrews, but "you need to take heed". That does not make sense.
Look at the passage.
let "us" labor (him and those who hear, race, saved, unsaved?)
So, "us" they needed to Labor, be diligent, strive, for what???
It does not matter even if you want this to mean Us Hebrews:
Lets use your theory, and it still gives the same message:
Let US HEBREWS labor, lest (so that, for the reason, unless) any man fall after the same example of disobedience.
Let us Hebrews labor not to such, just as Israel did, who thought they were God's people, and thoguht they could not be condemned.
Chapter 3 and 4 is giving this message. Notice Chapter 3:
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
To "depart" means they were there at one time. Just as Paul says many will "Depart from the faith".
I know he is not telling them who Jesus is, that supports what I am saying, they already knew the truth, and were already part of the church:
Notice again:
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers,<----Is there ever a time when the unsaved should be teachers??
ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God;<---This is why they needed to be teachers by this time, because they already had been taught the truth, and instead of growing, they needed to be taught again
I am not sure, I would say it was not written TO Gentiles, but it is FOR everyone, just as every other book we have.
There is nothing in Hebrews that would not apply to us as well as them. Even what is stated concerning the law of Moses.
Now another point:
This passages shows they were NOT under the law, and shows they were Christians.
Chapter 10 is a continuation of Paul's point that the law is done away, and was only a shadow of what was to come - 10:1
Seeing there were some forsaking the Christian assembly, and returning to the law, he shows by warning them of the seriousness of doing such, they were in fact Christians:
Notice:
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching
1. "us" cannot be meaning all Jews, but Christians.
2. unsaved Jews would not be told to "hold fast the profession of our faith" if they had not come to the faith.
3. The Jews were not commanded to assemble together with the Christians.
Notice below the severity of those who were forsaking the assembly, and this shows they were Christians:
26 For if we sin wilfully(forsaking the assmebly the context) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, <---This can ONLY mean, by sinning willfully, the Christian does not have the sacrifice of Christ effecting him.
If it was speaking of unsaved people, then what sacrificed would stop remaining by them forsaking the assembly and willfully sinning?
If it was talking about sacrifice under the law of Moses, then it would imply that if they DID NOT sin willfully then THERE WOULD STILL remain a sacrifice for their sins.
IF talking about animal, then it would be saying this is still a valid offering for sin, we know better than that.
Now before you reject this, keep reading the following passages:
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28
He that despised Moses 'law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: <--A contast, those that disobeyed the law of Moses, were worthy of death. What is is point? Keep reading:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God,<----Why would they be worthy of a more sorer punishemnt than those under the law, if they were under the law??
It is because:
and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?<-----The Spirit of grace does not say we can sin willfully because of grace, therefore by doing such, we are despising this Spirit.
So is this really a warning to God's people, Christians? KEEP READING:
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord.
And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God
Marinna, please be honest with yourself. These passages are not as hard as many try to make them. I do not get any gain in my life by believing we must Obey God, because that goes for me as well.
The only gain I get, is knowing I can be saved if I have the humility to accept what God says.
These were Christians being written to.
Chapter 12 and 13 also show this, but because I dont want this too long, I will save that for when it's needed. Please focus on what these passages are saying.
Obedience is our duty, and Jesus is only saving those who obey - Heb 5:9
In fact, read Hebrews 5:9 and answer this one quesiton:
If Jesus is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him...what odes that imply of all them that do not obey him.
Before you say, obey means to believe, read Luke 12:43-f., believing that you have a Lord, is more reason to obey, if we dont, then were not saved.
It is not "work based" because obedience is not a work (a deed) but our duty.
And what would I get from believing this? What to do those who fight against this so hard get? A convenient conscience, covered my words like "i am fitly rag" "I trust in Jesus not me" etc.
The fact is, if one does not think he has to keep his commands, he does not trust nor believe jesus ONE BIT.
Look at the passage.
let "us" labor (him and those who hear, race, saved, unsaved?)
So, "us" they needed to Labor, be diligent, strive, for what???
It does not matter even if you want this to mean Us Hebrews:
Lets use your theory, and it still gives the same message:
Let US HEBREWS labor, lest (so that, for the reason, unless) any man fall after the same example of disobedience.
Let us Hebrews labor not to such, just as Israel did, who thought they were God's people, and thoguht they could not be condemned.
Chapter 3 and 4 is giving this message. Notice Chapter 3:
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
To "depart" means they were there at one time. Just as Paul says many will "Depart from the faith".
I know he is not telling them who Jesus is, that supports what I am saying, they already knew the truth, and were already part of the church:
Notice again:
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers,<----Is there ever a time when the unsaved should be teachers??
ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God;<---This is why they needed to be teachers by this time, because they already had been taught the truth, and instead of growing, they needed to be taught again
I am not sure, I would say it was not written TO Gentiles, but it is FOR everyone, just as every other book we have.
There is nothing in Hebrews that would not apply to us as well as them. Even what is stated concerning the law of Moses.
Now another point:
This passages shows they were NOT under the law, and shows they were Christians.
Chapter 10 is a continuation of Paul's point that the law is done away, and was only a shadow of what was to come - 10:1
Seeing there were some forsaking the Christian assembly, and returning to the law, he shows by warning them of the seriousness of doing such, they were in fact Christians:
Notice:
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching1. "us" cannot be meaning all Jews, but Christians.
2. unsaved Jews would not be told to "hold fast the profession of our faith" if they had not come to the faith.
3. The Jews were not commanded to assemble together with the Christians.
Notice below the severity of those who were forsaking the assembly, and this shows they were Christians:
26 For if we sin wilfully(forsaking the assmebly the context) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, <---This can ONLY mean, by sinning willfully, the Christian does not have the sacrifice of Christ effecting him.
If it was speaking of unsaved people, then what sacrificed would stop remaining by them forsaking the assembly and willfully sinning?
If it was talking about sacrifice under the law of Moses, then it would imply that if they DID NOT sin willfully then THERE WOULD STILL remain a sacrifice for their sins.
IF talking about animal, then it would be saying this is still a valid offering for sin, we know better than that.
Now before you reject this, keep reading the following passages:
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28
He that despised Moses 'law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: <--A contast, those that disobeyed the law of Moses, were worthy of death. What is is point? Keep reading:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God,<----Why would they be worthy of a more sorer punishemnt than those under the law, if they were under the law??
It is because:
and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?<-----The Spirit of grace does not say we can sin willfully because of grace, therefore by doing such, we are despising this Spirit.
So is this really a warning to God's people, Christians? KEEP READING:
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord.
And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God
Marinna, please be honest with yourself. These passages are not as hard as many try to make them. I do not get any gain in my life by believing we must Obey God, because that goes for me as well.
The only gain I get, is knowing I can be saved if I have the humility to accept what God says.
These were Christians being written to.
Chapter 12 and 13 also show this, but because I dont want this too long, I will save that for when it's needed. Please focus on what these passages are saying.
Obedience is our duty, and Jesus is only saving those who obey - Heb 5:9
In fact, read Hebrews 5:9 and answer this one quesiton:
If Jesus is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him...what odes that imply of all them that do not obey him.
Before you say, obey means to believe, read Luke 12:43-f., believing that you have a Lord, is more reason to obey, if we dont, then were not saved.
It is not "work based" because obedience is not a work (a deed) but our duty.
And what would I get from believing this? What to do those who fight against this so hard get? A convenient conscience, covered my words like "i am fitly rag" "I trust in Jesus not me" etc.
The fact is, if one does not think he has to keep his commands, he does not trust nor believe jesus ONE BIT.
G
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
This verse, properly interpreted, really puts the kabitz on OSAS, I think, feed.
'by' modifies grace, this is a passive word. 'By' = a byline. By=the route one took. One, by land. Two, by sea....
you have been saved BY this passive act that God did, oh, sure, it is a great act but it's just 'by grace.' Certainly, without God's grace we are not justified . But what about the next part? Through faith. Now, if Scripture said we were just justified by grace then that would be fine, OK, dandy-mandy, I can live with that. But, it does NOT.
Justified by grace AND faith. James says it's important, how can we possibly not understand this and think that grace alone gets us to Heaven when God's holy inspired Word says different ??? This mindboggles me.
The unfaithfulness of us and the must-be faithfulness of God mindboggles me too.
What is your OSAS showing? I mean, IF it's your grace that leads you through faith to understand that we must do Godly works on earth, then HAVE your OSAS , I won't put down anothe word about it !!!
But, if YOUR OSAS blanket-statement saves you by GRACE ALONE, no, didn't you pay any attention to my Ephesians 2:8-9 thread??? BY GRACE . Through faith ! One is a passive reception and one is an active reception. We ARE saved by God's grace, but IF you just fashion your heine to THAT ALONE doctrine then what are you doing? You are DEAD !! YOUR grace appreciation will NOT put God on a requirement assignment to faithfully get you to Heaven because God cannot be unfaithful, NO!, you will high-tail your rear to His throne of GRACE and say 'Lord, I want to KNOW you more !!! '
Like I said in another thread I just did, WHY would you want to PUT your most heavenly Father of all creation on a YOU will do this or else stipulation !!
No, it's not a question !!Why !! You will be with Him in Heaven, why in the world would you EVER want to TEST God's faithfulness by saying 'I can go do whatever I want but God will REMAIN FAITHFUL . He MUST !!!
eg, why ??? You understanding this point, you are supposed to be the child of God YET you are bossing around your Jesus. Why ?
Why do you want people to have to SECOND GUESS if they are really saved by saying 'Well, if a person becomes with righteousnenss and serving God and then leaves God then he was never saved in the first place?'
Why can't you see too, that they were not just run-of-the-mill maybe believers or seekers of Christ in 1 John 2:19, those people who were NEVER SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE were 'antichrists.'
Why,eg? Why do you have to be saved so simply by grace alone, just preach , preach preach this, and, YES!, you are right we are NOT saved by works, why you keep saying to me "Quit trying to work your way to Heaven' is beyond me,' sigh, but, you do, EVEN after I did the Ephesians 2:8,9 thread, even after I said that you ARE saved by grace, through faith. So,
what? Why? Who put these ideas in your head, eg, grandpa, that grace is able to save us, EVEN without faith, when Christ does say in zillions of Scriptures that grace is with faith.
GRace with faith, and, that is apparent in Scripture too
This verse, properly interpreted, really puts the kabitz on OSAS, I think, feed.
'by' modifies grace, this is a passive word. 'By' = a byline. By=the route one took. One, by land. Two, by sea....
you have been saved BY this passive act that God did, oh, sure, it is a great act but it's just 'by grace.' Certainly, without God's grace we are not justified . But what about the next part? Through faith. Now, if Scripture said we were just justified by grace then that would be fine, OK, dandy-mandy, I can live with that. But, it does NOT.
Justified by grace AND faith. James says it's important, how can we possibly not understand this and think that grace alone gets us to Heaven when God's holy inspired Word says different ??? This mindboggles me.
The unfaithfulness of us and the must-be faithfulness of God mindboggles me too.
What is your OSAS showing? I mean, IF it's your grace that leads you through faith to understand that we must do Godly works on earth, then HAVE your OSAS , I won't put down anothe word about it !!!
But, if YOUR OSAS blanket-statement saves you by GRACE ALONE, no, didn't you pay any attention to my Ephesians 2:8-9 thread??? BY GRACE . Through faith ! One is a passive reception and one is an active reception. We ARE saved by God's grace, but IF you just fashion your heine to THAT ALONE doctrine then what are you doing? You are DEAD !! YOUR grace appreciation will NOT put God on a requirement assignment to faithfully get you to Heaven because God cannot be unfaithful, NO!, you will high-tail your rear to His throne of GRACE and say 'Lord, I want to KNOW you more !!! '
- John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
- Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
- Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"
- Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
- Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
- Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
- Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
- Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
- Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
- Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
- Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
- Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
- Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
- Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
- Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
- Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
- Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
- Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
- Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
- Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
- Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
- Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
- Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
- Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
- Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
- Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
- 1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life
Like I said in another thread I just did, WHY would you want to PUT your most heavenly Father of all creation on a YOU will do this or else stipulation !!
No, it's not a question !!Why !! You will be with Him in Heaven, why in the world would you EVER want to TEST God's faithfulness by saying 'I can go do whatever I want but God will REMAIN FAITHFUL . He MUST !!!
eg, why ??? You understanding this point, you are supposed to be the child of God YET you are bossing around your Jesus. Why ?
Why do you want people to have to SECOND GUESS if they are really saved by saying 'Well, if a person becomes with righteousnenss and serving God and then leaves God then he was never saved in the first place?'
Why can't you see too, that they were not just run-of-the-mill maybe believers or seekers of Christ in 1 John 2:19, those people who were NEVER SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE were 'antichrists.'
Why,eg? Why do you have to be saved so simply by grace alone, just preach , preach preach this, and, YES!, you are right we are NOT saved by works, why you keep saying to me "Quit trying to work your way to Heaven' is beyond me,' sigh, but, you do, EVEN after I did the Ephesians 2:8,9 thread, even after I said that you ARE saved by grace, through faith. So,
what? Why? Who put these ideas in your head, eg, grandpa, that grace is able to save us, EVEN without faith, when Christ does say in zillions of Scriptures that grace is with faith.
GRace with faith, and, that is apparent in Scripture too
G
The 'through faith' goes with how we are justified by grace, and, the faith is not of us, it is of God, who gave us our 'measure of faith,' it is not a result of works that we receive our faith, we are not boast about it. We are just supposed to DO WORKS !!
Saved by grace, through faith. The faith is NOT following the grace train of though, the COMMA breaks it up, it lets us KNOW that there is more to this 'grace salvation' than MEETS THE EYE, it is in the doing God's work, hence Ephesians 2:10 speaks of we are made by Christ to create and do good works which He planned for us to do before we are born.
It's a cop-out to say, 'no, Scripture says , 'faith in the blood,' is what is talked of in Ephesians 2:8, it is about having faith in the Cross. The 'faith' word SOLELY modifies grace. '
No. That is not correct. There really is no modifier for grace it's just there, it's a given, nothing precedes it to modify it, but FAITH, now that is HEAVILY MODIFIED.
Faith is both modified by 'and that not of yourself,' AND the last clause, 'that no man should boast.' BOTH speak of FAITH !! Wipe it clear far from your mind that 'and that not of yourselves' is speaking of 'saved' word. No ! It is NOT. I have pointedly made this clear in Ephesians 2:8 verse study done, the Lord leads, but, yes, that point was made clear for you all
And, to be fair, here are some verses that speak of justified by grace, since I listed 'justified by faith' verses....Actually, just Titus 3 mentioned. FAir enough
OSAS , don't take this personal, this is a FORUM , we are entitled and subject to our opinions as the Lord individually leads us, we ALL want the Truth. Just keep the ACCUSTATIONS out, eg, ARE YOU LISTENING!!! And, judgmentalism, SQUIRREL, I Love Ya, but ARE YOU LISTENING, OK, cee, you too, mari, and, sure, everyone, and, oh , OK, even me
<< Titus 3 >>
New International Version 1984 Doing What Is Good
1Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men.
3At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.
9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned
Saved by grace, through faith. The faith is NOT following the grace train of though, the COMMA breaks it up, it lets us KNOW that there is more to this 'grace salvation' than MEETS THE EYE, it is in the doing God's work, hence Ephesians 2:10 speaks of we are made by Christ to create and do good works which He planned for us to do before we are born.
It's a cop-out to say, 'no, Scripture says , 'faith in the blood,' is what is talked of in Ephesians 2:8, it is about having faith in the Cross. The 'faith' word SOLELY modifies grace. '
No. That is not correct. There really is no modifier for grace it's just there, it's a given, nothing precedes it to modify it, but FAITH, now that is HEAVILY MODIFIED.
Faith is both modified by 'and that not of yourself,' AND the last clause, 'that no man should boast.' BOTH speak of FAITH !! Wipe it clear far from your mind that 'and that not of yourselves' is speaking of 'saved' word. No ! It is NOT. I have pointedly made this clear in Ephesians 2:8 verse study done, the Lord leads, but, yes, that point was made clear for you all
And, to be fair, here are some verses that speak of justified by grace, since I listed 'justified by faith' verses....Actually, just Titus 3 mentioned. FAir enough
OSAS , don't take this personal, this is a FORUM , we are entitled and subject to our opinions as the Lord individually leads us, we ALL want the Truth. Just keep the ACCUSTATIONS out, eg, ARE YOU LISTENING!!! And, judgmentalism, SQUIRREL, I Love Ya, but ARE YOU LISTENING, OK, cee, you too, mari, and, sure, everyone, and, oh , OK, even me
<< Titus 3 >>
New International Version 1984 Doing What Is Good
1Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men.
3At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.
9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned
M
Right.
So if they were solidly in the faith, why does the writer have to convince them that Sinai was NOT the place they needed to think about?
Everything about this book is teaching and reminding HEBREWS that they now have a NEW Covenant.
Did they or did they not contend with believer and unbelievers?
Did Stephen's sermon sound a lot like the Book of Hebrews?
So you agree it was written to keep them (HEBREWS) from returning to a Covenant and system which would soon be thoroughly and literally demolished?
Gentiles were never included in that Covenant
Okay. So far you haven't said anything I haven't already said.
With the exception that the Book was written to HEBREWS. You state categorically Christians. Saved people.
There is NOTHING which says the audience was all saved individuals.
In fact, everything about it says it was a mixed audience, just like the assembly of Israelites had always been. Some believing and faithful, some who would want to turn back.
c. 68 AD.
Jerusalem and all the Temple system would soon be GONE (though sacrifices and observances were still taking place, even during the roman jewish wars).
No more sacrifice for sins if they departed from the teachings they had received about JESUS, since no more system would be in place. Within a few short years.
Returning to the people )Rabbis etc) who had mocked and called for the Crucifixion was akin to recrucifying Him.
The Book goes on to tell them the Patriarchs NEVER looked for a continuing city (earthly Jerusalem), and that they suffered as pilgrims, persecuted.
The warning was against going BACK to the system which was never intended to continue.
This book was not written for pagan gentiles who had left their own systems. You know this.
I don't see your problem.
The Church - which is the remnant of the ancient assembly of the faithful into which the gentiles were grafted.
But unless i missed it, where is it addressed to A church, as are the other epistles?
Alright.
Alright.
Without a doubt.
Even though you say:
They fell because of UNBELIEF. Unbelief is the reason people are disobedient.
That's why they didn't enter the promised land.
They wanted to GO BACK.
They didn't BELEIVE.
The same message is in Hebrews.
Don't Go Back. There's nothing to go back to.
What?
Is there a consitent theme throughout scripture or not?
Believe and be saved (and obey becvause you believe), or turn away in unbelief (because you don't believe)?
It seems simple enough to me.
The Jewish Christians suffered terrible persecution for their faith.
There are warnings throughout Scripture not to crumple under persecution.
They are not all Israel who are Israel.
Many would have seen the blessings and heard the news, but just as they do today, they can not break away from what they know (tribally and historically - and today's Jewish people have no more sacrifice for sins...do they)
What's your point?
If people REALLY believe what is written, will they not endure?
I don't understand.
I'm already dead to this world. What can man do to me?
You're reaching.
No, I'm going to look at Hebrews AND every other account. You do what you like.
Yes, you want to isolate that Book for one purpose, yet universalize it for another.
Because within 2 years there would be PROOF that there was nothing to go back to.
As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” - Hebrews 3:15
Is this about gentiles who weren't delivered from egypt and wandered in the wilderness?
Is the warning one they would have recognized from their own history?
Is he saying IF, IF, today you finally do hear His voice, don't harden your hearts against Him like your fathers did in the rebellion.
Hear Him TODAY.
What is so hard to understand?
The warning to heed the gospel is the same for everyone.
Don't turn away.
The parable of the Sower knits into this well.
Strive to enter the REAL Promised Rest - Christ!
Don't reject the Gospel due to UNBELIEF.
Clearly some were in danger of unbelief and turning back to Judaism!
Right.
But what is the HEART of it all - JUST SIN?
or faith in JESUS????
Oh now it suits you to bring in other parts of the scriptures?
No, I believe the writer was convincing them that JESUS IS the Living God.
He describes the Spiritual Rock. All of it.
Here's an example of departing due to unbelief:
John 6
41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48I am that bread of life. 49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Just because it says they were His "disciples" doesn't mean they were His disciples INDEED.
They departed due to unbelief.
If you continue in my word, you are my DISCIPLES INDEED:
66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
But you want to make this about WILLFUL SIN.
The true believers will always say:
"Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."
No, they were being TAUGHT about Who Jesus was in relation to the Old Covenant.
Some were believers and clearly some were not.
i'll finish the rest later. Too long, Late here and I'm watching the "Selection" puppet show
God Bless
marianna
So if they were solidly in the faith, why does the writer have to convince them that Sinai was NOT the place they needed to think about?
Everything about this book is teaching and reminding HEBREWS that they now have a NEW Covenant.
Did they or did they not contend with believer and unbelievers?
Did Stephen's sermon sound a lot like the Book of Hebrews?
So you agree it was written to keep them (HEBREWS) from returning to a Covenant and system which would soon be thoroughly and literally demolished?
Gentiles were never included in that Covenant
Okay. So far you haven't said anything I haven't already said.
With the exception that the Book was written to HEBREWS. You state categorically Christians. Saved people.
There is NOTHING which says the audience was all saved individuals.
In fact, everything about it says it was a mixed audience, just like the assembly of Israelites had always been. Some believing and faithful, some who would want to turn back.
c. 68 AD.
Jerusalem and all the Temple system would soon be GONE (though sacrifices and observances were still taking place, even during the roman jewish wars).
No more sacrifice for sins if they departed from the teachings they had received about JESUS, since no more system would be in place. Within a few short years.
Returning to the people )Rabbis etc) who had mocked and called for the Crucifixion was akin to recrucifying Him.
The Book goes on to tell them the Patriarchs NEVER looked for a continuing city (earthly Jerusalem), and that they suffered as pilgrims, persecuted.
The warning was against going BACK to the system which was never intended to continue.
This book was not written for pagan gentiles who had left their own systems. You know this.
I don't see your problem.
The Church - which is the remnant of the ancient assembly of the faithful into which the gentiles were grafted.
But unless i missed it, where is it addressed to A church, as are the other epistles?
Alright.
Alright.
Without a doubt.
Even though you say:
They fell because of UNBELIEF. Unbelief is the reason people are disobedient.
That's why they didn't enter the promised land.
They wanted to GO BACK.
They didn't BELEIVE.
The same message is in Hebrews.
Don't Go Back. There's nothing to go back to.
What?
Is there a consitent theme throughout scripture or not?
Believe and be saved (and obey becvause you believe), or turn away in unbelief (because you don't believe)?
It seems simple enough to me.
The Jewish Christians suffered terrible persecution for their faith.
There are warnings throughout Scripture not to crumple under persecution.
They are not all Israel who are Israel.
Many would have seen the blessings and heard the news, but just as they do today, they can not break away from what they know (tribally and historically - and today's Jewish people have no more sacrifice for sins...do they)
What's your point?
If people REALLY believe what is written, will they not endure?
I don't understand.
I'm already dead to this world. What can man do to me?
You're reaching.
No, I'm going to look at Hebrews AND every other account. You do what you like.
Yes, you want to isolate that Book for one purpose, yet universalize it for another.
Because within 2 years there would be PROOF that there was nothing to go back to.
As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” - Hebrews 3:15
Is this about gentiles who weren't delivered from egypt and wandered in the wilderness?
Is the warning one they would have recognized from their own history?
Is he saying IF, IF, today you finally do hear His voice, don't harden your hearts against Him like your fathers did in the rebellion.
Hear Him TODAY.
What is so hard to understand?
The warning to heed the gospel is the same for everyone.
Don't turn away.
The parable of the Sower knits into this well.
Strive to enter the REAL Promised Rest - Christ!
Don't reject the Gospel due to UNBELIEF.
Clearly some were in danger of unbelief and turning back to Judaism!
Right.
But what is the HEART of it all - JUST SIN?
or faith in JESUS????
Oh now it suits you to bring in other parts of the scriptures?
No, I believe the writer was convincing them that JESUS IS the Living God.
He describes the Spiritual Rock. All of it.
Here's an example of departing due to unbelief:
John 6
41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48I am that bread of life. 49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Just because it says they were His "disciples" doesn't mean they were His disciples INDEED.
They departed due to unbelief.
If you continue in my word, you are my DISCIPLES INDEED:
66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
But you want to make this about WILLFUL SIN
.The true believers will always say:
"Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."
No, they were being TAUGHT about Who Jesus was in relation to the Old Covenant.
Some were believers and clearly some were not.
i'll finish the rest later. Too long, Late here and I'm watching the "Selection" puppet show
God Bless
marianna
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