THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[Hizikyah]

How does one know if the Spirit they are following is of Yahweh.

Since the Spirit says the EXACT same thing as the Law; judging what one thinks is ok, against the Scripture say is ok would be my personal method.

Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

"Law" is word #H8451 - torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah

Or is it that as soon as I physically read, "do not steal" and physically think, wow I shouldn't steal, it is then im evil and fallen because I read "the LETTER of the Law"

Or is "the LETTER of the Law"

something different, a different understanding than what we have 2,000 years later.

Could "the LETTER of the Law" teaching POSSIBLY be what the Pharisees had done by taking Instructions dismantling them?

Example:

The "rabbis" interpret Scripture by something called Midrashic interpretation, which ignores language and ignores context. They say Scripture is a divne code and only the rabbis have the knowledge to decipher that divine code. Here is an ACTUAL example of Midrashic interpretation used by the rabbis:

They take Exodus 23:2, "Do not follow the crowd in doing evil. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd."

After Midrashic interpretation is applied, they come out with : "follow the crowd."

Thus even when one disagrees or knows something is wrong he must, "follow the crowd," or as the Talmud puts it in Baba Metzia 59b (top of post), "after the majority must one incline."

Deuteronomy 30:11-13, "For this Law which I command you this day is not hidden from you, nor is it beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask; Who will ascend up into heaven for us, and bring it to us, so that we may hear it and then do it? Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask; Who will cross the sea, and bring it to us, so that we may hear it and then do it?"

After Midrashic interpretation is applied, they come out with : "‘It is not in heaven.’4 What did he mean by this? — Said R. Jeremiah: That the Torah had already been given at Mount Sinai; we pay no attention to a Heavenly Voice" (Baba Metzia 59b)

Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them:
And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"

Mattithyah 15:8-9, "These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

Mattithyah 5:43-44, "You have heard that it has been said: You will love your brother--but hate your enemies; But I say to you; Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do well to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."

Most people think Yahshua is rebuking "OT", not at all, nowhere in Yahweh's words is this hate taught. This hate comes from the Talmud of the pharisees. Yahweh's words says:

Leviticus 19:34, "The stranger living with you must be treated as one of your native-born, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. I am Yahweh."

Yahchanan (John) 4:24, "Yahweh is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth."

Isayah 59:21, "As for Me, this is My covenant with them, says Yahweh: My Spirit which is upon you, namely My Word (Instructions) which I have put in your mouth; they will not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your seed, nor from the mouth of your seed's seed, says Yahweh: from this time and forevermore."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The Words (Instructions) that I speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."

John 6:63, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Romans 8:13, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of Yahweh, they are the sons of Yahweh!"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yahchanan (John) 4:24, "Yahweh is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth."

Isayah 59:21, "As for Me, this is My covenant with them, says Yahweh: My Spirit which is upon you, namely My Word (Instructions) which I have put in your mouth; they will not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your seed, nor from the mouth of your seed's seed, says Yahweh: from this time and forevermore."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The Words (Instructions) that I speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."

John 6:63, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Romans 8:13, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of Yahweh, they are the sons of Yahweh!"

So the words of God which say whoever does not obey ALL the words of the law is cursed. we just ignore? they mean nothing??

You love to post how one is to obey, and yuo will get no argument.

But if you going to say this, you better post ALL the words God told Israel.

 

[john832]

So the words of God which say whoever does not obey ALL the words of the law is cursed. we just ignore? they mean nothing??

Uh, isn't that what you do?

 

[Hizikyah]

So the words of God which say whoever does not obey ALL the words of the law is cursed. we just ignore? they mean nothing??

You love to post how one is to obey, and yuo will get no argument.

But if you going to say this, you better post ALL the words God told Israel.

Nice way to oversimlify and ignore wha I posted.
Jesus Christ said this;

Yahchanan (John) 5:14, Afterward, Yahshua found him in the sacred precincts and said to him: Behold, you are healed. Sin no more, or a worse thing will come upon you.

I don't see you huffing and puffing over that one.... or should I say, "we just ignore? they mean nothing??"

No we don;t ignore any Scripture, but rather look at all Scripture. Is there mercy if one sins?

And to the point, you said, "God which say whoever does not obey ALL the words of the law is cursed"

To this very day what can happen if someone is promiscuous, they can catch a "curse" so yeah I trust Yahweh when He says, "don't listen and you will bring a curse upon yourself." Acts 15 says not to eat meat with blood in it, if that is disobeyed one could get a "curse" aka a (illness).

SO yeah, disobedience can bring curses.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Uh, isn't that what you do?

How am I doing this?

My Gospel is based on this. Those words I do not deny, I live by those words.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, [SUP]22 [/SUP]even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[SUP][h][/SUP] who believe. For there is no difference; [SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [SUP]24 [/SUP]being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [SUP]25 [/SUP]whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, [SUP]26 [/SUP]to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Gal 3:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”[SUP]11 [/SUP]Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]12 [/SUP]But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” [SUP]13[/SUP]Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— [SUP]14 [/SUP]so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit[SUP][e][/SUP] through faith.

 

[Hizikyah]

What time is this prophecy for, and if it is the end times, why is the world made waste for not following the Law, if the Law is done away?

Isayah 24:1-6, "Behold, Yahweh makes the earth empty and makes it waste, perverts the face of it and scatters abroad its inhabitants; And it will be: as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his owner; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with him who takes usury, so with him who gives usury to him: The land will be utterly emptied and utterly plundered, for Yahweh has spoken this word. The earth mourns and fades away, the world mourns and fades away, and the haughty people of the earth languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants of it, because they have transgressed the Laws, changed the ordinance, and broken the everlasting covenant. Because of this, the curse has devoured the earth, and they who dwell therein are desolate; therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left."

 

[john832]

How am I doing this?

My Gospel is based on this. Those words I do not deny, I live by those words.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, [SUP]22 [/SUP]even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[SUP][h][/SUP] who believe. For there is no difference; [SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [SUP]24 [/SUP]being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [SUP]25 [/SUP]whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, [SUP]26 [/SUP]to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Gal 3:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”[SUP]11 [/SUP]Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]12 [/SUP]But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” [SUP]13[/SUP]Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— [SUP]14 [/SUP]so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit[SUP][e][/SUP] through faith.

Funny thing, those of us who realize that grace is the undeserved, unearned forgiveness for sin (breaking the Law) and who do believe that obedience is good and right are called legalists. What do you call someone who does not obey and tramples on God's Law yet claims grace and says they have no need of the Law or to even acknowledge it because they are under grace?

Paul said this...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

 

[Hizikyah]

Philippians 4:13 (NKJV), "I can do all things through Christ[a] who strengthens me."

I can do all things through Christ[a] who strengthens me

and

You can do all things through Christ[a] who strengthens you

Mattithyah 28:20, “Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nice way to oversimlify and ignore wha I posted.

How did I ignore what you posted. How does what you posted agree with what moses said? and what paul said? does it make the words of paul and moses null and void?

Jesus Christ said this;

Yahchanan (John) 5:14, Afterward, Yahshua found him in the sacred precincts and said to him: Behold, you are healed. Sin no more, or a worse thing will come upon you.

I don't see you huffing and puffing over that one.... or should I say, "we just ignore? they mean nothing??"

No we don;t ignore any Scripture, but rather look at all Scripture. Is there mercy if one sins?

And to the point, you said, "God which say whoever does not obey ALL the words of the law is cursed"

To this very day what can happen if someone is promiscuous, they can catch a "curse" so yeah I trust Yahweh when He says, "don't listen and you will bring a curse upon yourself." Acts 15 says not to eat meat with blood in it, if that is disobeyed one could get a "curse" aka a (illness).

SO yeah, disobedience can bring curses.

You still did not listen to what moses and paul said, Your twisting what they said.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

Have you obeyed ALL THINGS WRITTEN in the law?

That is the standard as written by Moses, and confirmed by paul .

You cant twist ALL THINGS WRITTEN to mean your cursed ONLY when you do a certain sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Philippians 4:13 (NKJV), "I can do all things through Christ[a] who strengthens me."

I can do all things through Christ[a] who strengthens me

and

You can do all things through Christ[a] who strengthens you

Mattithyah 28:20, “Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Amen.

So again, Have you OBEYED ALL THINGS written in the law?

Or has the law not condemned you (and still condemns you?)

 

[Timeline]

Is that what he goes on to say?

v17

[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]113 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]athesmōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀθέσμων[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]lawless[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-GMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
lawless is word #113 - athesmos

athesmos: lawless
​

Original Word: ἄθεσμος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: athesmos
Phonetic Spelling: (ath'-es-mos)
Short Definition: lawless
Definition: lawless, unrestrained, licentious.

This is what the Scripture goes on to say;

New International Version
Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.

New Living Translation
I am warning you ahead of time, dear friends. Be on guard so that you will not be carried away by the errors of these wicked people and lose your own secure footing.

English Standard Version
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

New American Standard Bible
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

King James Bible
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, dear friends, since you know this in advance, be on your guard, so that you are not led away by the error of lawless people and fall from your own stability.

International Standard Version
And so, dear friends, since you already know these things, continuously be on your guard not to be carried away by the deception of lawless people. Otherwise, you may fall from your secure position.

NET Bible
Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard that you do not get led astray by the error of these unprincipled men and fall from your firm grasp on the truth.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
You therefore, beloved, as you have known beforehand, guard your souls, lest you go after the deception of those who are without The Law and you fall from your own stability.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Dear friends, you already know these things. So be on your guard not to be carried away by the deception of people who have no principles. Then you won't fall from your firm position.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Ye, therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things in advance, be on guard lest by the error of the wicked ye be deceived with the others and fall from your own steadfastness.

King James 2000 Bible
You therefore, beloved, seeing you know these things beforehand, beware lest you also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

American King James Version
You therefore, beloved, seeing you know these things before, beware lest you also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

American Standard Version
Ye therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware lest, being carried away with the error of the wicked, ye fall from your own stedfastness.

Douay-Rheims Bible
You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness.

Darby Bible Translation
*Ye* therefore, beloved, knowing [these] things before, take care lest, being led away along with the error of the wicked, ye should fall from your own stedfastness:

English Revised Version
Ye therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware lest, being carried away with the error of the wicked, ye fall from your own stedfastness.

Webster's Bible Translation
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

Weymouth New Testament
You, therefore, dear friends, having been warned beforehand, must continually be on your guard so as not to be led astray by the false teaching of immoral men nor fall from your own stedfastness.

World English Bible
You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness.

Young's Literal Translation
Ye, then, beloved, knowing before, take heed, lest, together with the error of the impious being led away, ye may fall from your own stedfastness,

2 Peter 3:17 ►Text Analysis
[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4771 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Hymeis[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Ὑμεῖς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]You[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-N2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3767 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]oun[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]οὖν,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]therefore,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]27 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]agapētoi[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀγαπητοί,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]beloved,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-VMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4267 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]proginōskontes[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]προγινώσκοντες[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]knowing [this] beforehand,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-NMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5442 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]phylassesthe[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]φυλάσσεσθε[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]beware,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PMM-2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2443 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hina[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἵνα[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]that[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3361 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]mē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]μὴ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τῇ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]with the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-DFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τῶν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-GMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]113 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]athesmōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀθέσμων[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]lawless[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-GMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4106 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]planē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]πλάνῃ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]error[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-DFS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4879 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]synapachthentes[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]συναπαχθέντες[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]having been led away,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-APP-NMP[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1601 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ekpesēte[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐκπέσητε[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]you should fall from[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-ASA-2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τοῦ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"][your][/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2398 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]idiou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἰδίου[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]own[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4740 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]stērigmou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]στηριγμοῦ,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]steadfastness.[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

John 1:14-18
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. [SUP]15 [/SUP]John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” [SUP]16 [/SUP]For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. [SUP]18 [/SUP]No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Romans 4:13-18
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;[SUP]15 [/SUP]for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.[SUP]16 [/SUP]For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, [SUP]17 [/SUP](as it is written, “A father of many nations have I made you”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. [SUP]18 [/SUP]In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”

Romans 6:12-14
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. [SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! [SUP]16 [/SUP]Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? [SUP]17 [/SUP]But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, [SUP]18 [/SUP]and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. [SUP]19 [/SUP]I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.


Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”


Galatians 5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Galatians 5:13-15
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

 

[john832]

Philippians 4:13 (NKJV), "I can do all things through Christ[a] who strengthens me."

I can do all things through Christ[a] who strengthens me

and

You can do all things through Christ[a] who strengthens you

Mattithyah 28:20, “Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Careful there my friend, you ought to know by now that the gospel is from Paul and Christ's instructions and teaching were just for those under the Law, he says in total sarcasm.

How is it that people claim to follow Christ and that He is the head of the church and they are His disciples yet marginalize everything He did or said and claim that He only spoke to those under the Old Covenant and that Paul is where we find the New Covenant teachings.

Yet, John wrote this...

Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

And what did Christ say about the Law?

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

Mat 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

No one ever explains why Mat 19:17 doesn't really mean what it says, do they?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Funny thing, those of us who realize that grace is the undeserved, unearned forgiveness for sin (breaking the Law) and who do believe that obedience is good and right are called legalists. What do you call someone who does not obey and tramples on God's Law yet claims grace and says they have no need of the Law or to even acknowledge it because they are under grace?

I call them licentious, in fact Jude calls them something.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.


What does this have to do with the standard moses (actually God through Moses) set in stone, and paul confirmed, that whoever does not obey ALL THE WORDS WRITTEN are cursed?

Paul said this...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Yeah yeah same old crap.

Show where I have said we can go on living in sin.

 

[john832]

John 1:14-18
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. [SUP]15 [/SUP]John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” [SUP]16 [/SUP]For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. [SUP]18 [/SUP]No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Romans 4:13-18
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;[SUP]15 [/SUP]for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.[SUP]16 [/SUP]For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, [SUP]17 [/SUP](as it is written, “A father of many nations have I made you”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. [SUP]18 [/SUP]In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”

Romans 6:12-14
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. [SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! [SUP]16 [/SUP]Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? [SUP]17 [/SUP]But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, [SUP]18 [/SUP]and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. [SUP]19 [/SUP]I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.


Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”


Galatians 5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Galatians 5:13-15
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

So, John 1:17 huh? How about if you explain why Mat 19:17 is not grace and truth?

Oh and by the way, why do you suppose that someone who believes that we should be obedient to the Law is seeking to justify themselves by the Law?

How about if you address the fact that when we break the Law we sin and that we need the grace of God daily for our sins?

Or do you believe that you don't sin?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Careful there my friend, you ought to know by now that the gospel is from Paul and Christ's instructions and teaching were just for those under the Law, he says in total sarcasm.

How is it that people claim to follow Christ and that He is the head of the church and they are His disciples yet marginalize everything He did or said and claim that He only spoke to those under the Old Covenant and that Paul is where we find the New Covenant teachings.

Yet, John wrote this...

Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

And what did Christ say about the Law?

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

Mat 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

No one ever explains why Mat 19:17 doesn't really mean what it says, do they?

Matt 19 is easy.

He tried to get the guy to admit he failed to live the commandments. The guy thought he was in. Because he obeyed the commands since birth.

Oh but wait, He loved money ore than God, Thus he broke the first command, Yet when jesus confronted him with this, He did not admit, Ok, yes jesus your right, I have not obeyed since the begining, I am cursed, as moses said, instead the guy walked away, he STILL did not get it.

 

[john832]

I call them licentious, in fact Jude calls them something.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.


What does this have to do with the standard moses (actually God through Moses) set in stone, and paul confirmed, that whoever does not obey ALL THE WORDS WRITTEN are cursed?




Yeah yeah same old crap.

Show where I have said we can go on living in sin.

Yep, rail against the Law and then tell everyone how evil they are for believing they should obey the Ten Commandments.


What do you call Ismaaiyl Brinsley?

I would call him a person who broke the sixth Commandment.

 

[john832]

Matt 19 is easy.

He tried to get the guy to admit he failed to live the commandments. The guy thought he was in. Because he obeyed the commands since birth.

Oh but wait, He loved money ore than God, Thus he broke the first command, Yet when jesus confronted him with this, He did not admit, Ok, yes jesus your right, I have not obeyed since the begining, I am cursed, as moses said, instead the guy walked away, he STILL did not get it.

If you read this verse...

Mat 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

As...

Mat 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But you can't keep the Commandments and if you want to enter into life ignore them."

Then it is obvious that we went to different schools.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So, John 1:17 huh? How about if you explain why Mat 19:17 is not grace and truth?

Oh and by the way, why do you suppose that someone who believes that we should be obedient to the Law is seeking to justify themselves by the Law?

It depends.

Am I being obedient SO I CAN BE SAVED.

or am I being obedient, BECAUSE I AM SAVED, AND LOVE MY ABBA FATHER who would NEVER LEAD ME WRONG.

Huge difference.

How about if you address the fact that when we break the Law we sin and that we need the grace of God daily for our sins?

Or do you believe that you don't sin?

What a silly question. do I believe I do not sin? If I did, I would have to preach that i no longer need grace, I have made it on my own ability. And paul would call me a fool, for begining in the Spirit, and trying to be perfected by the flesh (law)

Evidently you must, You deny the fact that you are still condemned by the law even on your best day. If you did not deny this, you would KNOW your salvation can only be secure in christ, and not in your own ability to do good.

Again, How good is good enough?

Moses told you, paul confirmed what moses said.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

 

[Hizikyah]

John 1:14-18
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. [SUP]15 [/SUP]John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” [SUP]16 [/SUP]For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. [SUP]18 [/SUP]No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Romans 4:13-18
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;[SUP]15 [/SUP]for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.[SUP]16 [/SUP]For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, [SUP]17 [/SUP](as it is written, “A father of many nations have I made you”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. [SUP]18 [/SUP]In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”

Romans 6:12-14
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. [SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! [SUP]16 [/SUP]Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? [SUP]17 [/SUP]But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, [SUP]18 [/SUP]and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. [SUP]19 [/SUP]I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.


Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”


Galatians 5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Galatians 5:13-15
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

Paul;

Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."

Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you, yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."


Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

Careful there my friend, you ought to know by now that the gospel is from Paul and Christ's instructions and teaching were just for those under the Law, he says in total sarcasm.

How is it that people claim to follow Christ and that He is the head of the church and they are His disciples yet marginalize everything He did or said and claim that He only spoke to those under the Old Covenant and that Paul is where we find the New Covenant teachings.

Yet, John wrote this...

Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

And what did Christ say about the Law?

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

Mat 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

No one ever explains why Mat 19:17 doesn't really mean what it says, do they?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you read this verse...

Mat 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

As...

Mat 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But you can't keep the Commandments and if you want to enter into life ignore them."

Then it is obvious that we went to different schools.

No.

He said, you must obey the commands. (as moses said, and paul confirmed)

What did James say?

if you break the least of the commands, your guilty of the whole law. Did this guy break the law?

The guy answered, What commands.

Jesus answered.

The guy said, I have since birth

Jesus said, good then go sell all you have and follow me.

The guy walked away.. why? He proved he did not keep all the commands, He loved his money more than God, he broke the first commands.

The law condemned him. They guy did not see it, because he thought he was good enough.

Jesus did this alot when he was on the earth. to trip people up and try to get them to think.