The Gross Error of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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Nehemiah6
Hello N6,
It looks like you should have quoted actual Calvinists, rather than misrepresent the view
lets investigate...
Everyone believes they have truth. You believe you have truth or you would not post it. You start out poisoning the well suggesting this strange thought as to what Calvinists believe.
This statement as you intend it is off track...we will show this quite simply.
Everyone other than a heretical universalist .."limits" the atonement.
Do you believe that atonement was made for satan or fallen angels?
Do you believe everyone is going to be saved?
This is a falsehood. Most people resist the truth of limited atonement, or particular redemption.
If a person understands the fall...their theology will have much error.
If I show you this, will you then accuse me of thinking I only have a correct theology?
All five points stand together but the key is the T.....total depravity. Dead men, spiritual corpses can be religious but CANNOT understand the things of God 1cor2:14, romans 8:7
It is God..in mercy loving amultitude of sinners in Christ before the world was, and allowing the rest to be passed over .
okay
(A) JOHN CALVIN (famous Reformer)
“It is often stated—and with considerable propriety—that Calvin did not write an explicit treatment concerning the extent of the atonement, in fact did not deal with this precise issue in the terms to which Reformed theology has been accustomed. It must be owned, of course, that the question had received some attention before Calvin. Notably Gottschalk in the ninth century had given express support to definite atonement and the scholastics had discussed the topic and advanced a partial resolution in asserting that Christ’s death was “sufficient for all men and efficient for the elect.” Calvin alludes to and endorses this distinction but views it as insufficient for a proper analysis of 1 John 2:2. Nevertheless a full discussion of the scope of the atonement is not found in Calvin’s writings, and the assessment of his position in this area has been varied.”
http://www.apuritansmind.com/arminianism/john-calvins-view-of-limited-atonement/
okay...but no one other than you says it is an error so far.
.
good quotes...very true.
no...not even close.
well..lets see what you've got
are you saying all men...will indeed be saved?
Good verse...but are you saying all men will be saved? Jesus accomplished a complete and finished salvation . he actually seeks and SAVES those he came to save. he did not make them potentially saveable, but He accomplished redemption.;
2 [FONT="]Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.[/FONT]
Stay tuned for pt2
Hello N6,
It looks like you should have quoted actual Calvinists, rather than misrepresent the view
lets investigate...Everyone believes they have truth. You believe you have truth or you would not post it. You start out poisoning the well suggesting this strange thought as to what Calvinists believe.
This statement as you intend it is off track...we will show this quite simply.
Everyone other than a heretical universalist .."limits" the atonement.
Do you believe that atonement was made for satan or fallen angels?
Do you believe everyone is going to be saved?
This is a falsehood. Most people resist the truth of limited atonement, or particular redemption.
If a person understands the fall...their theology will have much error.
If I show you this, will you then accuse me of thinking I only have a correct theology?
All five points stand together but the key is the T.....total depravity. Dead men, spiritual corpses can be religious but CANNOT understand the things of God 1cor2:14, romans 8:7
It is God..in mercy loving amultitude of sinners in Christ before the world was, and allowing the rest to be passed over .
okay
(A) JOHN CALVIN (famous Reformer)
“It is often stated—and with considerable propriety—that Calvin did not write an explicit treatment concerning the extent of the atonement, in fact did not deal with this precise issue in the terms to which Reformed theology has been accustomed. It must be owned, of course, that the question had received some attention before Calvin. Notably Gottschalk in the ninth century had given express support to definite atonement and the scholastics had discussed the topic and advanced a partial resolution in asserting that Christ’s death was “sufficient for all men and efficient for the elect.” Calvin alludes to and endorses this distinction but views it as insufficient for a proper analysis of 1 John 2:2. Nevertheless a full discussion of the scope of the atonement is not found in Calvin’s writings, and the assessment of his position in this area has been varied.”
http://www.apuritansmind.com/arminianism/john-calvins-view-of-limited-atonement/
okay...but no one other than you says it is an error so far.
.
good quotes...very true.
no...not even close.
well..lets see what you've got
are you saying all men...will indeed be saved?
Good verse...but are you saying all men will be saved? Jesus accomplished a complete and finished salvation . he actually seeks and SAVES those he came to save. he did not make them potentially saveable, but He accomplished redemption.;
2 [FONT="]Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.[/FONT]
Stay tuned for pt2
Nehemiah6
pt2
yes...the gospel is going to go worldwide, not just in Israel.
yes...not Israel only...Do you believe everyone in the world is going to be saved? Or people from every tribe, nation, and tongue?
Except the whosoever is not in the text...it is everyone believing and who continue on believing shall be saved.
yes God's children are scattered all over the world,0 [FONT="]Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.[/FONT][FONT="]51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;[/FONT]
[FONT="]52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.[/FONT]
All the father gives to the Son will be saved, no more, no less. If everyone who is alive today is given to the Son, then they will be saved....but it does not seem likely does it?
.
He is....there is no other Saviour;
12 [FONT="]Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.[/FONT]
.
yes and verses 37-44 explain who these persons are....you guessed it...ALL The Father gives to the Son
.
same thing my friend....do you think all who ever lived in the world get saved?
1 same question to you...Salvation is actual, not potential.
Yes it winds up to be the sheep...notice those in verse 26 of jn 10 are not sheep , so they cannot believe, they do not have the ability.
see pt3
pt2
yes...the gospel is going to go worldwide, not just in Israel.
yes...not Israel only...Do you believe everyone in the world is going to be saved? Or people from every tribe, nation, and tongue?
Except the whosoever is not in the text...it is everyone believing and who continue on believing shall be saved.
yes God's children are scattered all over the world,0 [FONT="]Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.[/FONT][FONT="]51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;[/FONT]
[FONT="]52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.[/FONT]
All the father gives to the Son will be saved, no more, no less. If everyone who is alive today is given to the Son, then they will be saved....but it does not seem likely does it?
.
He is....there is no other Saviour;
12 [FONT="]Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.[/FONT]
.
yes and verses 37-44 explain who these persons are....you guessed it...ALL The Father gives to the Son
.
same thing my friend....do you think all who ever lived in the world get saved?
1 same question to you...Salvation is actual, not potential.
Yes it winds up to be the sheep...notice those in verse 26 of jn 10 are not sheep , so they cannot believe, they do not have the ability.
see pt3
Nehemiah6;
Let me ask you N6...when Jesus was on the cross, and said it is finished...how did Juan who was dying in Peru that same day...How was he drawn to Jesus? What about an eskimo who died the next day? how was he drawn, having never heard about Jesus and the gospel?
two men,the first Adam,...... the last Adam.....
all in the first adam die...[all men ever born]...
all in the second adam live[all men born again]
Rom 10:12,13).
yes,,,the sheep do that...goats never will
Yes ...the kingdom spreads worldwide...
yes the command goes worldwide... you like verses that say all or world...but not everyone will be saved.
4)
yes...we command all men to repent and believe the gospel.
Jesus is the only mediator...there is no other
literally...everyone, then watch how the context explains who the everyone is;
[FONT="]9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people it is not the seed of Adam, but rather the seed of Abraham.[/FONT]
it is speaking of the elect...notice it says...TO-USWARD.
[/QUOTE]
THE SINS OF...THAT YOU BOLDED IN BLUE...IS NOT IN THE TEXT...SO WE HAVE JESUS AS THE ONLY PROPITIATION FOR ANYONE WHOSE SINS ARE COVERED BY THE BLOOD.......GOOD QUESTIONS...DO YOU HAVE SOME MORE EVEN IF THEY DO NOT HAVE THE WORD ALL OR WORLD IN THEM.
Let me ask you N6...when Jesus was on the cross, and said it is finished...how did Juan who was dying in Peru that same day...How was he drawn to Jesus? What about an eskimo who died the next day? how was he drawn, having never heard about Jesus and the gospel?
two men,the first Adam,...... the last Adam.....
all in the first adam die...[all men ever born]...
all in the second adam live[all men born again]
Rom 10:12,13).
yes,,,the sheep do that...goats never will
Yes ...the kingdom spreads worldwide...
yes the command goes worldwide... you like verses that say all or world...but not everyone will be saved.
4)
yes...we command all men to repent and believe the gospel.
Jesus is the only mediator...there is no other
literally...everyone, then watch how the context explains who the everyone is;
[FONT="]9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people it is not the seed of Adam, but rather the seed of Abraham.[/FONT]
it is speaking of the elect...notice it says...TO-USWARD.
[/QUOTE]
THE SINS OF...THAT YOU BOLDED IN BLUE...IS NOT IN THE TEXT...SO WE HAVE JESUS AS THE ONLY PROPITIATION FOR ANYONE WHOSE SINS ARE COVERED BY THE BLOOD.......GOOD QUESTIONS...DO YOU HAVE SOME MORE EVEN IF THEY DO NOT HAVE THE WORD ALL OR WORLD IN THEM.
I quoted ACTUAL CALVINISTS, and if you are not familiar with C.H. Spurgeon, R. L. Dabney, Ligonier Ministries, Calvinist Corner, etc., or you choose to start your nonsensical responses with a DELIBERATE MISREPRESENTATION of my OP, it would be a waste of time responding to you.
So if you want some serious discussion, retract your accusation, admit that I did quote Calvinists accurately, admit that I did not misrepresent them, and then we will see how much you really care about the Word of God or about simply upholding the errors of Five Point Calvinism. At this point, you are attempting to support a position which has no Scriptural basis and is in fact false teaching. Furthermore, you are not telling the truth about what I quoted.
So if you want some serious discussion, retract your accusation, admit that I did quote Calvinists accurately, admit that I did not misrepresent them, and then we will see how much you really care about the Word of God or about simply upholding the errors of Five Point Calvinism. At this point, you are attempting to support a position which has no Scriptural basis and is in fact false teaching. Furthermore, you are not telling the truth about what I quoted.
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Hmmmph...I answered this t'other night and that post went *poof*. I will try to answer it again.
These gifts come from God and are not innate in man.
Apostle Paul in Romans 8 dictated(or wrote it, though it seems he had it dictated, but I digress) For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.[vss 5-8]
Those who are lost are governed by a mind that is governed by the flesh. And in fact, it goes even deeper than that, as their hearts hate Him, and also can not please Him, as they are in the flesh. The mind set upon the flesh is death, whereas the mind set upon the Spirit is life and peace. These now love Him as their hearts have been changed by Him via divine quickening. 1 John 4:7 says those who love Him have been born of Him. The disconnect betwixt our beliefs is how does one have their minds changed from being set upon the flesh to the Spirit? Now, in vs 14, it says For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God, and I do not think this is just post-conversion, where the Spirit leads us all the way to the Father when we are saved.
In Ezekiel 11:19 it says And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh. In Ezekiel 36:26 it says Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Before anyone can love God, a supernatural exchange must take place. He must quicken them to life, wherein faith and repentance are given, they are exercised, and they are saved.
Jesus told Nicodemus ‘You must be born again.’ Notice this, Jesus did not tell Nicodemus he needed to do something/anything to be born again, only that he must be born again. None of us can do anything that causes us to be born again. That is solely the work of an omnipotent, sovereign God.
These gifts come from God and are not innate in man.
Apostle Paul in Romans 8 dictated(or wrote it, though it seems he had it dictated, but I digress) For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.[vss 5-8]
Those who are lost are governed by a mind that is governed by the flesh. And in fact, it goes even deeper than that, as their hearts hate Him, and also can not please Him, as they are in the flesh. The mind set upon the flesh is death, whereas the mind set upon the Spirit is life and peace. These now love Him as their hearts have been changed by Him via divine quickening. 1 John 4:7 says those who love Him have been born of Him. The disconnect betwixt our beliefs is how does one have their minds changed from being set upon the flesh to the Spirit? Now, in vs 14, it says For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God, and I do not think this is just post-conversion, where the Spirit leads us all the way to the Father when we are saved.
In Ezekiel 11:19 it says And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh. In Ezekiel 36:26 it says Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Before anyone can love God, a supernatural exchange must take place. He must quicken them to life, wherein faith and repentance are given, they are exercised, and they are saved.
Jesus told Nicodemus ‘You must be born again.’ Notice this, Jesus did not tell Nicodemus he needed to do something/anything to be born again, only that he must be born again. None of us can do anything that causes us to be born again. That is solely the work of an omnipotent, sovereign God.
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Nehemiah6
Hello N6,
It looks like you should have quoted actual Calvinists, rather than misrepresent the view lets investigate...
Everyone believes they have truth. You believe you have truth or you would not post it. You start out poisoning the well suggesting this strange thought as to what Calvinists believe.
This statement as you intend it is off track...we will show this quite simply.
Everyone other than a heretical universalist .."limits" the atonement.
Do you believe that atonement was made for satan or fallen angels?
Do you believe everyone is going to be saved?
This is a falsehood. Most people resist the truth of limited atonement, or particular redemption.
If a person understands the fall...their theology will have much error.
If I show you this, will you then accuse me of thinking I only have a correct theology?
All five points stand together but the key is the T.....total depravity. Dead men, spiritual corpses can be religious but CANNOT understand the things of God 1cor2:14, romans 8:7
It is God..in mercy loving amultitude of sinners in Christ before the world was, and allowing the rest to be passed over .
okay
(A) JOHN CALVIN (famous Reformer)
“It is often stated—and with considerable propriety—that Calvin did not write an explicit treatment concerning the extent of the atonement, in fact did not deal with this precise issue in the terms to which Reformed theology has been accustomed. It must be owned, of course, that the question had received some attention before Calvin. Notably Gottschalk in the ninth century had given express support to definite atonement and the scholastics had discussed the topic and advanced a partial resolution in asserting that Christ’s death was “sufficient for all men and efficient for the elect.” Calvin alludes to and endorses this distinction but views it as insufficient for a proper analysis of 1 John 2:2. Nevertheless a full discussion of the scope of the atonement is not found in Calvin’s writings, and the assessment of his position in this area has been varied.”
http://www.apuritansmind.com/arminianism/john-calvins-view-of-limited-atonement/
okay...but no one other than you says it is an error so far.
[/I][/COLOR]good quotes...very true.
no...not even close.
well..lets see what you've got
are you saying all men...will indeed be saved?
Good verse...but are you saying all men will be saved? Jesus accomplished a complete and finished salvation . he actually seeks and SAVES those he came to save. he did not make them potentially saveable, but He accomplished redemption.;
2 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Stay tuned for pt2
Hello N6,
It looks like you should have quoted actual Calvinists, rather than misrepresent the view
lets investigate...Everyone believes they have truth. You believe you have truth or you would not post it. You start out poisoning the well suggesting this strange thought as to what Calvinists believe.
This statement as you intend it is off track...we will show this quite simply.
Everyone other than a heretical universalist .."limits" the atonement.
Do you believe that atonement was made for satan or fallen angels?
Do you believe everyone is going to be saved?
This is a falsehood. Most people resist the truth of limited atonement, or particular redemption.
If a person understands the fall...their theology will have much error.
If I show you this, will you then accuse me of thinking I only have a correct theology?
All five points stand together but the key is the T.....total depravity. Dead men, spiritual corpses can be religious but CANNOT understand the things of God 1cor2:14, romans 8:7
It is God..in mercy loving amultitude of sinners in Christ before the world was, and allowing the rest to be passed over .
okay
(A) JOHN CALVIN (famous Reformer)
“It is often stated—and with considerable propriety—that Calvin did not write an explicit treatment concerning the extent of the atonement, in fact did not deal with this precise issue in the terms to which Reformed theology has been accustomed. It must be owned, of course, that the question had received some attention before Calvin. Notably Gottschalk in the ninth century had given express support to definite atonement and the scholastics had discussed the topic and advanced a partial resolution in asserting that Christ’s death was “sufficient for all men and efficient for the elect.” Calvin alludes to and endorses this distinction but views it as insufficient for a proper analysis of 1 John 2:2. Nevertheless a full discussion of the scope of the atonement is not found in Calvin’s writings, and the assessment of his position in this area has been varied.”
http://www.apuritansmind.com/arminianism/john-calvins-view-of-limited-atonement/
okay...but no one other than you says it is an error so far.
[/I][/COLOR]good quotes...very true.
no...not even close.
well..lets see what you've got
are you saying all men...will indeed be saved?
Good verse...but are you saying all men will be saved? Jesus accomplished a complete and finished salvation . he actually seeks and SAVES those he came to save. he did not make them potentially saveable, but He accomplished redemption.;
2 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Stay tuned for pt2
Arminians seem to be lost when it comes to theology, they never promote their theology and when they make an attempt to defiend their doctrine there is a Scripture that interprets the Biblical meaning that does not promore thier doctrine or the Scripture they used is either out of context or does not support their theology. My favorite is John 3:16 when searching further into the verse it is a strong support for limited atonement, if we look at how the footnote translates "For God so loved the world" it gives a better understanding of how the verse starts, here is how the footnote translates the first part of John 3:16 "For this is how God loved the world" He loved the world in the giving of His Son to be an atonement for sins, "that he gave his only Son". Now we need to look at the next part of the Scripture, "that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." If we look into the Greek the word "pisteuōn" is "believing" so this part of the verse can be translated, "that whoever believing in Him should not be utterly destroyed but hold everlasting life."
The part that those that believe Jesus died for all men and that this Scripture proves it have not considered all Scripture or taken a closer look at the verse they are using. The people not believing are not going to receive eternal life, only those that are believing will receive eternal life, so this verse limits the atonement to those that are believing, then verses 18-20 explains the unbelievers position. It really helps to read any Scripture not only in it's context, but to understand it theological meaning it needs to be taken in it's context.
I also like the idea of two or three wittnesses, so if you can have supporting Scripture in the OT, the Gospels and the epistles you are good to go.
Isaiah 53:8, 11-12 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?...11He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities.12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”
Matthew 1:21 “She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
John 10:15 “I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.”
Galatians 1:3-5 “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,4 who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,5 to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.”
Titus 2:14 “who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.”
There are many more but with these we have three witnesses, the pronouns us, we, our when in the context of speaking of the Church, the elect or the people of the Lord, they are all refering to the Church/the elect as in Ephesians 5:25 “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,”
In John 10 the word “know” comes from the root Hebrew word for knew used in Genesis 4:1 “Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten a man with the help of the Lord.”
Which means a personal intimate knowledge of someone and Jesus knows His people from before the foundations of the world. Ephesians 1:4 “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.”
To be able to chose us, He has to have knowledge of us and it was an intimate knowledge of us, according to the words Jesus used.
Isaiah 53:8, 11-12 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?...11He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities.12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”
Matthew 1:21 “She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
John 10:15 “I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.”
Galatians 1:3-5 “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,4 who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,5 to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.”
Titus 2:14 “who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.”
There are many more but with these we have three witnesses, the pronouns us, we, our when in the context of speaking of the Church, the elect or the people of the Lord, they are all refering to the Church/the elect as in Ephesians 5:25 “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,”
In John 10 the word “know” comes from the root Hebrew word for knew used in Genesis 4:1 “Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten a man with the help of the Lord.”
Which means a personal intimate knowledge of someone and Jesus knows His people from before the foundations of the world. Ephesians 1:4 “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.”
To be able to chose us, He has to have knowledge of us and it was an intimate knowledge of us, according to the words Jesus used.
Calvin’s dead. It’s not a salvation issue .
To me it more how we can we hear God not seen?
The Armenian it would seem say they are drawn by the imaginations of their own heart rather than the perfect law of God found in His book of the law, the Bible. It contains no theories after the imagination of ones heart as private interpretations .
The law of faith is not the law of guessing
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:20
It would seem they are drawn by making the right guess. Some like those in Genesis 6 must of ran out of guesses.
Gen 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
They are described as the froward generation the generation of Adam “no faith” dead in their trespasses and sin without a living hope and God in this world
Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
I would appear In Romans God is no respecter of a person’s imagination. It would be quite difficult to do the will of God if a person does not first hear Him.
For there is no respecter of persons with God. He who is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul pleases has mercy on whosoever he has mercy.
For “as many” as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and “as many” as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Rom 2:11 ( Imputed righteousness)
The law justifies Christ just as it condemns those who have not the Spirit of Christ. . Where there is no law men perish.They will never wake up to new eternal spirit life and receive the promise of a new incorruptible body
Jesus is the just as the one who fulfilled the law giving us His grace because of His finished work of faith or labor of love.
Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
If His Spirit works in us to both will and his good pleasure we can work it out.
It would be hard for those to work out his will if they no do hear God.
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputing: Phi 2:14
Why would it as it seems the Armenian murmur rather than do the will of God by believing God. Have they stopped up the ears like the forward generation of natural man (no faith.... Deuteronomy 32 ) needed to hear the hearing of faith??
But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they "should hear the law, and the words which the LORD" of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts. Zec 7:11
To me it more how we can we hear God not seen?
The Armenian it would seem say they are drawn by the imaginations of their own heart rather than the perfect law of God found in His book of the law, the Bible. It contains no theories after the imagination of ones heart as private interpretations .
The law of faith is not the law of guessing
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:20
It would seem they are drawn by making the right guess. Some like those in Genesis 6 must of ran out of guesses.
Gen 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
They are described as the froward generation the generation of Adam “no faith” dead in their trespasses and sin without a living hope and God in this world
Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
I would appear In Romans God is no respecter of a person’s imagination. It would be quite difficult to do the will of God if a person does not first hear Him.
For there is no respecter of persons with God. He who is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul pleases has mercy on whosoever he has mercy.
For “as many” as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and “as many” as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Rom 2:11 ( Imputed righteousness)
The law justifies Christ just as it condemns those who have not the Spirit of Christ. . Where there is no law men perish.They will never wake up to new eternal spirit life and receive the promise of a new incorruptible body
Jesus is the just as the one who fulfilled the law giving us His grace because of His finished work of faith or labor of love.
Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
If His Spirit works in us to both will and his good pleasure we can work it out.
It would be hard for those to work out his will if they no do hear God.
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputing: Phi 2:14
Why would it as it seems the Armenian murmur rather than do the will of God by believing God. Have they stopped up the ears like the forward generation of natural man (no faith.... Deuteronomy 32 ) needed to hear the hearing of faith??
But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they "should hear the law, and the words which the LORD" of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts. Zec 7:11
the server on this website was updated so my message was lost here it is again:
can some calvinist answer me whats the role of the devil? he is supposed to be the enemy of God's people and God. but if God predestines everything then wouldnt God just be working thru the devil and devil is just a fellow worker of God? thats what im thinking when i hear that all is predestined.
but the bible says its teh enemy and fighting God and archangel Michael.
can some calvinist answer me whats the role of the devil? he is supposed to be the enemy of God's people and God. but if God predestines everything then wouldnt God just be working thru the devil and devil is just a fellow worker of God? thats what im thinking when i hear that all is predestined.
but the bible says its teh enemy and fighting God and archangel Michael.
Wow, I can't believe our whole conversations are GONE!
I am just going to say: God's gift of eternal life is available to all men through Jesus Christ. If one does not believe in Jesus Christ - one is condemned . . . . so in the sense that one has to believe in Jesus Christ to receive the gift of eternal life - I believe in limited atonement. The "gift" is there but one has to receive it by, through Jesus Christ. When one believes in Jesus Christ, confesses him as Lord and believes in his heart that God raised Jesus from the dead then one is saved - sealed with Holy Spirit, i.e. belief, then regeneration. Regeneration can only begin when one is born again of the Spirit and one is born of the Spirit through faith (belief/trust) in Jesus Christ.
Please, everyone don't just tell me my understanding is wrong without giving an explanation as to why it is wrong. Thanks
I am just going to say: God's gift of eternal life is available to all men through Jesus Christ. If one does not believe in Jesus Christ - one is condemned . . . . so in the sense that one has to believe in Jesus Christ to receive the gift of eternal life - I believe in limited atonement. The "gift" is there but one has to receive it by, through Jesus Christ. When one believes in Jesus Christ, confesses him as Lord and believes in his heart that God raised Jesus from the dead then one is saved - sealed with Holy Spirit, i.e. belief, then regeneration. Regeneration can only begin when one is born again of the Spirit and one is born of the Spirit through faith (belief/trust) in Jesus Christ.
Please, everyone don't just tell me my understanding is wrong without giving an explanation as to why it is wrong. Thanks
D
Okay, honestly here. I can't usually refute you, not because you're not wrong, but because you tend to start with the side of the negative.
And that's a debate/Logic problem, not literally "negative." (You aren't being negative, yet your argument is one from nothing.)
Before I explain the problem with discussing things with you, I have to show the bigger problem in terms you'll understand.
Example: I used to argue with atheists, until I figured out why that was futile, logically speaking. You see, they start with "There is no God." (There the negative is plain.) I start with, "Not only is there God, we know him."
You can't prove a negative. You can't prove nothing with literally nothing to prove. Since there is no god, then what evidence can prove something doesn't exist, right? So the honus on proving God is, always landed on me. (I could. I still can, but it became futile when I put in all the effort, and all they did afterward was say they disagreed.)
Which brings me to the point of why I can rarely discuss things with you.
No, really. I can't argue with this, because that's not in the Bible. That's your opinion or something you were taught. So, it is nothing, and I can't prove something out of nothing. And I can't prove that's nothing, unless I quote the entire Bible so you read it, look for that in there, and find it doesn't exist.
That's why I can't go beyond, "You're wrong." Nothing personal, not angry, not scolding, I just can't prove nothing/the negative. Basic Logic problem.
And that's a debate/Logic problem, not literally "negative." (You aren't being negative, yet your argument is one from nothing.)
Before I explain the problem with discussing things with you, I have to show the bigger problem in terms you'll understand.
Example: I used to argue with atheists, until I figured out why that was futile, logically speaking. You see, they start with "There is no God." (There the negative is plain.) I start with, "Not only is there God, we know him."
You can't prove a negative. You can't prove nothing with literally nothing to prove. Since there is no god, then what evidence can prove something doesn't exist, right? So the honus on proving God is, always landed on me. (I could. I still can, but it became futile when I put in all the effort, and all they did afterward was say they disagreed.)
Which brings me to the point of why I can rarely discuss things with you.
No, really. I can't argue with this, because that's not in the Bible. That's your opinion or something you were taught. So, it is nothing, and I can't prove something out of nothing. And I can't prove that's nothing, unless I quote the entire Bible so you read it, look for that in there, and find it doesn't exist.
That's why I can't go beyond, "You're wrong." Nothing personal, not angry, not scolding, I just can't prove nothing/the negative. Basic Logic problem.
Cain and Able. God gave Cain a choice. God knew the choice Cain would make yet the choice was offered.
Ge 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Ge 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
ugh, i responded to this earlier, and poof! server maintenance. i'll try again.
i 2000 % agree that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord, in genuine faith and repentance, will be saved.
(just don't tell postuhman i said 2000 % or i'll get a math lesson.)
i wholeheartedly affirm that. anyone who comes to Christ in repentance and faith will be saved. i know this because i believe in Sovereign election, and i know that whoever comes, to them it has been granted to come. God foreknew (foreloved) that person, Christ died for that person, and in time the Holy Spirit enables that person to come to Jesus.
the verses you quoted apply to the believers. in Rom 8, the 'us all' are the believers. in 2 Cor 5, the 'us all' for whom Christ died are those who no longer live for themselves, but for God, the believers.
particular redemption may not be as easy to see in the Scriptures as election. neither is the Trinity, yet Christians affirm the Trinity. i think if someone can't, or won't, see election as a Biblical doctrine, particular redemption becomes all the more untenable.
but i was thinking about this last night (and yes, i had a thought! lol).
why is God's electing a people for Himself and choosing to have mercy on some such a hard pill to swallow? it makes God a 'monster', 'capricious', and so on, because in choosing a people, He doesn't have mercy on all, and thus, in that way of thinking, condemns some. (i don't believe that, but i see the logic...)
all Christians affirm God's omniscience, right? so if God, er, looks down the corridors of time, sees who will choose Him and who definitely will not, and intentionally creates those who will not choose Him and are destined for hell, knowing that will be their destination...
is that really any different? as a dear friend who has gone Home used to say, we're stuck with the same 'pig'; we've just put lipstick on it.
i really appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me.
i 2000 % agree that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord, in genuine faith and repentance, will be saved.
(just don't tell postuhman i said 2000 % or i'll get a math lesson.
)i wholeheartedly affirm that. anyone who comes to Christ in repentance and faith will be saved. i know this because i believe in Sovereign election, and i know that whoever comes, to them it has been granted to come. God foreknew (foreloved) that person, Christ died for that person, and in time the Holy Spirit enables that person to come to Jesus.
the verses you quoted apply to the believers. in Rom 8, the 'us all' are the believers. in 2 Cor 5, the 'us all' for whom Christ died are those who no longer live for themselves, but for God, the believers.
particular redemption may not be as easy to see in the Scriptures as election. neither is the Trinity, yet Christians affirm the Trinity. i think if someone can't, or won't, see election as a Biblical doctrine, particular redemption becomes all the more untenable.
but i was thinking about this last night (and yes, i had a thought! lol).
why is God's electing a people for Himself and choosing to have mercy on some such a hard pill to swallow? it makes God a 'monster', 'capricious', and so on, because in choosing a people, He doesn't have mercy on all, and thus, in that way of thinking, condemns some. (i don't believe that, but i see the logic...)
all Christians affirm God's omniscience, right? so if God, er, looks down the corridors of time, sees who will choose Him and who definitely will not, and intentionally creates those who will not choose Him and are destined for hell, knowing that will be their destination...
is that really any different? as a dear friend who has gone Home used to say, we're stuck with the same 'pig'; we've just put lipstick on it.
i really appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me.
