The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[Nehemiah6]

Do you also take the rest of this part of John this literally.
KJV John 6: 48I am that bread of life. 49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Blessings
Bill

While this is an attempt to deflect attention from the truth that Christ not only gave His life for the sheep, but He also gave His life for the world. The world of humanity is a world of sinners, so no one is a sheep automatically. All must hear the Gospel, all must repent, and all must believe in order to be saved. The truth is that only relatively few will be saved. But that does not change what Christ said or accomplished.

Now getting back to your question, we all know that no one can literally partake of the actual flesh and blood of the Son of Man. And He did not intend for His words to be taken in that way. But to partake of Christ is to receive Him into one's very soul and spirit by faith, and believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit indwell the believer.

So how should we interpret he that eateth me, even he shall live by me? In the light of other Gospel truth. Ans this is clarified by other Scriptures.

 

[Johnny_B]

Men are only dead spiritually not physically. Men have an ability to choose. What caused you to respond to the gospel? What was your response?

Faith comes from hearing and hearing the word of God. The Holy Spirit moves in a mans heart through the word of God to convict a man that he is a sinner and that as a sinner he justly deserves eternal condemnation. The Holy Spirit shows forth the righteousness of Christ as pleasing to the Father. Christ as our only Savior.

You frustrate the grace of God by elevating election above the goodness of God which leads men to repentance. Grace is not rendered of no effect because some will not believe. How many in the church profess that which they do not possess? They have a gospel that does not rely on the Holy Spirit to bring them to Christ. A gospel of election rather than mercy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Thank you for revealing the truth, being that man is spiritually dead, so they can not become spiritually alive, only God can cause them to be born again. But you devalue the unmerited favor of God by saying that there is some good in man that ove rrides God's goodness in grace. The Scripture clearly show that man in his physical state cannot please God. Man must be born again to even see the kingdom of God, without being born again how can one choose the Lord?

John 3:3 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” And Peter tells us that it is the Father that causes us to be born again.

I Peter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"

In mans physical state he cannot please God, to become spiritually alive.

John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

Romans 8:7-8 "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

 

[Johnny_B]

Your theology is solid as a rock, anyone who has read your posts knows you do not skim the surface.

Thank you for defending the truth from scripture not the systematic theology of men.

I have known many people testify to what you have stated here, they heard, they were convicted of the truth and they believed upon the work of Jesus on the cross and were born again.

Really he never quoted one Scripture, he only reveal your truth, not Biblical truth. Which by definition is a systematic theology.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Can you by the Scriptures show how someone that cannot see the kingdom of God, would repent?

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes one needs to be born again no argument there.

How do you define repent?

People post scripture all the time, if only, if only it were that easy , then we would probably not even need this bible discussion board

Really he never quoted one Scripture, he only reveal your truth, not Biblical truth. Which by definition is a systematic theology.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againhe cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Can you by the Scriptures show how someone that cannot see the kingdom of God, would repent?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Can you by the Scriptures show how someone that cannot see the kingdom of God, would repent?

Well first of all a sinner must ENTER the Kingdom of God in order to SEE the Kingdom of God. It is similar to someone standing outside a museum. He would see absolutely nothing unless he first entered into the museum through the front door.

So the real question is how does a sinner enter into the Kingdom of God? And the answer is found in Scripture (Acts 2:34-41), and it is through repentance and faith in the one who is both Lord and Christ. And after sinners become saints by receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, they can actually see the Kingdom of God:

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. [THIS IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD]

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

 

[Iconoclast]

and this goes right back to the doctrine of God and people clinging to manmade doctrines, such as Calvinism, because they do not understand how against the Character of God Calvinism actually is

you cannot convince people, it seems, to study these fundamental basics that constrain our own thoughts about God

Doctrine comes from God. It is given to men.
Most times people want to speak of the character of God they substitute their own ideas filled with emotional and carnal error and in reality they do not come within a mile of an honest discussion of the true attributes of God.

 

[fredoheaven]

Any text w/o context is pretext for a proof text.

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.[Romans 5:1-11]

This jives with the Doctrines of Grace. The Christ died for the ungodly, as He said He gives His life for the sheep.[John 10:11,15]

Good to deal with the Context and I say amen!

But I need a proper context to get the full view not just a part/half view. Well, Paul has to start Romans 5:1 with the word ‘Therefore’ which referring to something previously stated.

Chapter 4 speaks of the Patriach Abraham, even as David in regards to the promise of God’s righteousness and justification by faith.

Chapter 3 speaks about Jews and Gentile are both the same, they are under sin and that “… all the world may become guilty before God.” “....For there is no difference:”

Proper Context on the given text includes the whole chapter especially of verses 12 and 18 indicating all men (Elect and Non Elect ) have sinned and that Christ died for them.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Romans 3
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17And the way of peace have they not known: 18There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 

[Iconoclast]

They did constrain God's will. He wanted them to do something. They chose not to do it.

God want's all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). That is God's will. So why won't everyone be saved? Because they choose not to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

We are to pray for God's will to be done on earth. If God's will always comes to pass, why did Jesus tell us to pray for it?

God wants all kinds of men to be saved, kings, those in authority,

 

[fredoheaven]

This jives with the Doctrines of Grace. The Christ died for the ungodly, as He said He gives His life for the sheep.[John 10:11,15]

And so,how do we call the non elect?Godly?

And who are these sheep?

Please expound?

Thanks

 

[fredoheaven]

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Romans 6:23a For the wages of sin is death;

Scriptures says men taste death. Is that for elect only? Nop .
but Christ bear the sins of the many (countless) not some or few.

Men(sinners/elect or non elect whatever we call it) dies because of the penalty of sin and that was what Christ died for.

 

[Nehemiah6]

God wants all kinds of men to be saved, kings, those in authority,

Deliberate MISINTERPRETATION in order to accommodate false doctrine. However, this one Scripture (Acts 17:30) totally demolishes your interpretation.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Now are you going to twist this into a pretzel, or are you honestly going to back off from your false interpretation?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Most times people want to speak of the character of God they substitute their own ideas filled with emotional and carnal error and in reality they do not come within a mile of an honest discussion of the true attributes of God.

This is a very apt description of those who cling to the man-made doctrines of Calvinism, which actually came from a Catholic bishop -- Augustine.

 

[SovereignGrace]

And so,how do we call the non elect?Godly?

And who are these sheep?

Please expound?

Thanks

We were the children of wrath, even as others.[Eph. 2:3] These sheep you mockingly make fun of, are those chosen from before the foundation of the world.[Eph. 2:1] These sheep you mockingly make fun of are those the Christ said He would give His life for.[John 10:11,15]

The context of Romans 5:1-11 is the ungodly elect receive the gift of eternal life.

Adios senor.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Romans 6:23a For the wages of sin is death;

Scriptures says men taste death. Is that for elect only? Nop .
but Christ bear the sins of the many (countless) not some or few.

Men(sinners/elect or non elect whatever we call it) dies because of the penalty of sin and that was what Christ died for.

Those the Christ died for, He removed their guilt from them, took the curse upon Himself on their behalf. These are the ones God seeks and saves.[Matthew 1:21]

 

[preacher4truth]

Really he never quoted one Scripture, he only reveal your truth, not Biblical truth. Which by definition is a systematic theology.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born againhe cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Can you by the Scriptures show how someone that cannot see the kingdom of God, would repent?

Not only that, but she thoroughly contradicted notuptome by placing hearing and conviction at the forefront of any inherent ability, because there is no ability without it. It's unreal how they don't even think about what they're saying, don't grasp what the other said either, then contradict themselves. LOL!

 

[John146]

God wants all kinds of men to be saved, kings, those in authority,

If you have to change the word of God to fit your theology, I say, change your theology to fit the word of God.

 

[valiant]

Well first of all a sinner must ENTER the Kingdom of God in order to SEE the Kingdom of God.

How can you enter something you cannot see? A man must be born again in order to see it, THEN he may enter it.

It is similar to someone standing outside a museum. He would see absolutely nothing unless he first entered into the museum through the front door.

But you have to SEE the museum before you can enter it.

So the real question is how does a sinner enter into the Kingdom of God?

No the first question is how does he see it. Only then can he enter it. And to see it he must be born again,

And the answer is found in Scripture (Acts 2:34-41), and it is through repentance and faith in the one who is both Lord and Christ. And after sinners become saints by receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, they can actually see the Kingdom of God:

A man must see it, otherwise he would not enter it. The motive power is GOD's. God moves, THEN we respond.

34-35 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool. [THIS IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD]

Hardly the kingdom of God. That is His judgement on unbelievers.

To enter the kingdom of God you must first SEE it. And that results from the work of God. We are born first, then we see it, and THEN we enter it.

 

[notuptome]

Not only that, but she thoroughly contradicted notuptome by placing hearing and conviction at the forefront of any inherent ability, because there is no ability without it. It's unreal how they don't even think about what they're saying, don't grasp what the other said either, then contradict themselves. LOL!

It would be unwise to judge another persons experience based on unknown factors.

I know how I came to know Christ as my Savior. I know what it is to be under conviction of the Holy Spirit over my sin. I know what it is to admit to God that I deserved to be condemned. I know what it is to confess that my self righteousness is no good in the sight of the righteousness of Christ. It's that John 16:8-11 thingy.

I'm not at all confident that many who claim to be Christian ever faced the fact that they were lost and deserving of eternal condemnation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[peacefulbeliever]

In all of this, what you're espousing is the Christ did His part so you now could do yours. That dog won't hunt.

I am espousing that we don't receive the gift of salvation except through Jesus Christ - we cannot come to God except by Jesus Christ . . . I believe that is what scripture repeatedly says - we must believe.

No, I am not saying we receive the Holy Spirit first, the Christ said that to Nicodemus. I am just repeating what He said You must be born again before you can see the kingdom of heaven. He didn't say you must do something to be born again.

Faith is the evidence of the new birth, not the cause of it.

You must be born again . . . what does that mean? Does it mean you must be saved to see the kingdom of heaven? How does one get saved? How is one born from above? How is one born of the Spirit?

He that believes on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:38,39

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12,13)

This new creation, created in you is Spirit - it was not created by the blood of men, nor by the sexual desires of the flesh, nor by man's will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure but because of God's plan and His purposes - to give eternal life through Christ. When I say man has a choice - it is not a choice in creating that Spirit within, i.e. the new birth, the new creation - man's choice is to obey the gospel, the good news . . . Jesus Christ and him crucified - raised to eternal life giving eternal life to those who believe in him.

 

[Rokurac]

This is a very apt description of those who cling to the man-made doctrines of Calvinism, which actually came from a Catholic bishop -- Augustine.

With all due respect, Augustine was not a roman catholic. When the church fathers use the word Catholic, they are referring to the universal (catholic, katholikos) church.
The roman catholic church we know today did not exist during the time of Augustine. The west-east schism had not even happened until the 1000s so I hope you stop saying this. It doesnt hold up to scrutiny.

The roman catholic church teaches synergism, Augustine taught monergism, so his teachings directly contradict the roman catholic dogma.