The holiless conundrum
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Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
You are absolutely right and my heart cries for the many who will not see it.
The evidence is so abundant that we are without excuse not to know that Jesus is that tree of life that is called the wisdom and understanding of God.
Proverbs 3:13-18 "Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. ......... She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her."
Compare these next two verses: (What kind of fruit did Jesus bear?)
Proverbs 11:30 "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise."
1 Corinthians 1:30 "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption.."
So then, we see how we are to eat of Christ's flesh. That meant that we eat of his righteous wisdom and understanding so as to make it a part of ourselves.
We can see this by the branches grafted into the tree, the trunk of which is Jesus and the roots of which are God. It is the word of truth which flows through that tree into all the branches and to the fruit they produce.
John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
Romans 7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."
The word Jesus speaks is law, we are to live even as he: Matthew 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
Jesus is God's mouth.
I have said many times that we learn sin and that is what David was really talking about doing in the womb of Jerusalem there at Psalms 51:5. You perhaps recall an earlier post where I spoke of that and gave more detail.
Well, this is how it works, Jesus is a tree that stands staight and tall. His way is not bent and he is therefore equipped to teach us.
The first Adam corrupted his way and became a tree bent crooked. When that happens to a tree it points the branches in a different direction.
In Jesus we are pointed the right direction of God's wisdom and righteousness.
Sereously, who can argue with that?
The evidence is so abundant that we are without excuse not to know that Jesus is that tree of life that is called the wisdom and understanding of God.
Proverbs 3:13-18 "Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. ......... She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her."
Compare these next two verses: (What kind of fruit did Jesus bear?)
Proverbs 11:30 "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise."
1 Corinthians 1:30 "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption.."
So then, we see how we are to eat of Christ's flesh. That meant that we eat of his righteous wisdom and understanding so as to make it a part of ourselves.
We can see this by the branches grafted into the tree, the trunk of which is Jesus and the roots of which are God. It is the word of truth which flows through that tree into all the branches and to the fruit they produce.
John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
Romans 7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."
The word Jesus speaks is law, we are to live even as he: Matthew 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
Jesus is God's mouth.
I have said many times that we learn sin and that is what David was really talking about doing in the womb of Jerusalem there at Psalms 51:5. You perhaps recall an earlier post where I spoke of that and gave more detail.
Well, this is how it works, Jesus is a tree that stands staight and tall. His way is not bent and he is therefore equipped to teach us.
The first Adam corrupted his way and became a tree bent crooked. When that happens to a tree it points the branches in a different direction.
In Jesus we are pointed the right direction of God's wisdom and righteousness.
Sereously, who can argue with that?
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Proverbs 11:30 "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise."
Do you see in that how we come to be like this, as follows:
John 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
It has to become our heart, just as it is Jesus'.
Fruit contains seed that grows a new tree.
We must grow a tree of life toward others in us, if we would be like Christ.
Do you see in that how we come to be like this, as follows:
John 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
It has to become our heart, just as it is Jesus'.
Fruit contains seed that grows a new tree.
We must grow a tree of life toward others in us, if we would be like Christ.
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Interesting thread, I have been looking into this some the past few years and from which I came across various verses relating to it. Here are some of the verses.
Romans 8:4-8 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
Deuteronomy 18:13 "Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God."
Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
Job 1:1 "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil."
Job 1:8 "And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"
Job 2:3 "And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."
Psalm 18:32 "It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect."
1 Peter 5:10 "But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you."
2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
1 John 2:5 "But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him."
Revelation 3:2 "Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God."
Romans 8:4-8 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
Deuteronomy 18:13 "Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God."
Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
Job 1:1 "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil."
Job 1:8 "And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"
Job 2:3 "And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."
Psalm 18:32 "It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect."
1 Peter 5:10 "But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you."
2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
1 John 2:5 "But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him."
Revelation 3:2 "Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God."
Perfect, you never got angry for no reason. You never told a white lie. You honestly can say that you stand before God perfect. John couldn't stand before Him, He found himself eating dirt. Before I was saved, I was in this imperfect flesh body and when I got saved I was still in this imperfect flesh body and will remain imperfect until I leave this flesh body. Maybe yours changed but, mine didn't. Oh wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from this body of flesh. Jesus said when you see these things come to pass, look up for your Redemption draweth nigh. What was He talking about, we are redeemed at salvation right. Yes, we are in spirit, are minds are being renewed by the Word of God, Our bodies have not yet been redeemed. The price has been paid and we long for the day that it is completed. Why are the bodies of the dead in Christ raised at the trump.
Yes crossnote, I have met perfect in the flesh IN THIS LIFE on this world. He is also the One that makes ALL HIS FAMILY PERFECT.... Right here on earth in this life in this world... He calls them the ELECT. He chose them for Himself. To seperate them from the others..... This is what I tried to convey to you for many weeks now...
This church of God is ON THIS DAY IN THIS WORLD and it looks like this... That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
God said He will always have a "Body of Christ" "church" here on earth.And God shows us in Eph 4:11 to 13 that He has a set standard for the members of this Body of Chrsit (His church). They all have to be saints, that would be made unto a perfect man, edified into the Body of Christ to the fulness of Jesus.
If I say there is no perfection in this world then God has to be a lier, because God said HE APPOINTED some as apostles, some as prophets some as evangelists and some as pastors and teachers.... FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS...
Wonder who is lieing about the perfection here on earth bit... God or the others? God says HIS MEN makes the saints perfect, others say perfection is not possible here on this earth... Where do God appoint hese men? Here on earth! And they need to perfect the saints? But some "believers" tell me that is not possible... Also others say sinlessness is impossible here, yet they speak of being REBORN, and God says in 1 John 3:9 that ALL or WHOSOEVER is born of God (reborn) does not and CANNOT sin... Again who is lieing? The sinning "believers" or God in His Word?
I think in spite of not many HOLY MEN I know, and I am not without sin, I will trust God to also give me "BORN OF GOD". And this man Sinless cannot be anything ELSE than perfect, if GOD GAVE HIM BORN OF GOD..... I believe EVERY WORD that God said in the Bible, and I trust HIM, My Holy God, to make my whole BODY, SOUL and SPIRIT blameless, holy and perfect. He is the ONLY ONE that can do this, and I believe HE WILL DO THIS FOR ME... When? ON HIS TIME! That is what the Bible teach, and I believe the bible... Also 1 John the whole book.
Crossnote, you know I write this in love, and that love is NOT MY OWN. The love with which i wrote here, is a love that made me forgive and love even my enimy. It is NOT PERFECT YET, but I know it will be perfected, because God does not stop on what He started withour FINISHING HIS CHILDREN.... And when God is finished all His children is PERFECT AS HE IS PERFECT, right here on this World... Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
My friend Crossnote, not ONE PERSON will have boldness in the day of judgement if he has sin against his name. ONLY PERFECT, sinless people can have boldness in TRUTH and LIFE, and WAY, because they were sinless in Truth and Life and Way... they Truly were as God is in this world....
This church of God is ON THIS DAY IN THIS WORLD and it looks like this... That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
God said He will always have a "Body of Christ" "church" here on earth.And God shows us in Eph 4:11 to 13 that He has a set standard for the members of this Body of Chrsit (His church). They all have to be saints, that would be made unto a perfect man, edified into the Body of Christ to the fulness of Jesus.
If I say there is no perfection in this world then God has to be a lier, because God said HE APPOINTED some as apostles, some as prophets some as evangelists and some as pastors and teachers.... FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS...
Wonder who is lieing about the perfection here on earth bit... God or the others? God says HIS MEN makes the saints perfect, others say perfection is not possible here on this earth... Where do God appoint hese men? Here on earth! And they need to perfect the saints? But some "believers" tell me that is not possible... Also others say sinlessness is impossible here, yet they speak of being REBORN, and God says in 1 John 3:9 that ALL or WHOSOEVER is born of God (reborn) does not and CANNOT sin... Again who is lieing? The sinning "believers" or God in His Word?
I think in spite of not many HOLY MEN I know, and I am not without sin, I will trust God to also give me "BORN OF GOD". And this man Sinless cannot be anything ELSE than perfect, if GOD GAVE HIM BORN OF GOD..... I believe EVERY WORD that God said in the Bible, and I trust HIM, My Holy God, to make my whole BODY, SOUL and SPIRIT blameless, holy and perfect. He is the ONLY ONE that can do this, and I believe HE WILL DO THIS FOR ME... When? ON HIS TIME! That is what the Bible teach, and I believe the bible... Also 1 John the whole book.
Crossnote, you know I write this in love, and that love is NOT MY OWN. The love with which i wrote here, is a love that made me forgive and love even my enimy. It is NOT PERFECT YET, but I know it will be perfected, because God does not stop on what He started withour FINISHING HIS CHILDREN.... And when God is finished all His children is PERFECT AS HE IS PERFECT, right here on this World... Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
My friend Crossnote, not ONE PERSON will have boldness in the day of judgement if he has sin against his name. ONLY PERFECT, sinless people can have boldness in TRUTH and LIFE, and WAY, because they were sinless in Truth and Life and Way... they Truly were as God is in this world....
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I think the BORN OF GOD, gives us the Spirit that RULES OVER THE LUST OF THE FLESH.... Has Jesus not concoured (spelling) ALL! If God's Spirit is in my flesh, can He not rule over sin? 100%? Yes that is why HE puts His Spirit in the flesh of every person HE SAVES.... Only the Holy Spirit cannot sin.
If God makes us perfectly one with HIM, do you think ANY person made ONE WITH GOD is still a imperfect soul? NEVER! Every soul and spirit made ONE WITH GOD, and JESUS... IS PERFECT ONE WITH GOD... Perfect, even the flesh follows that holiness IN CHRIST.
When a person is one in GOD the mind is God's, the spirit is God's, the soul is God's and the flesh is God's. God says it is a NEW CREATURE... BEHOLD... hey.... BEHOLD EVERYTHING is NEW.... The OLD HAS PASSED (DIED) DEAD AS DEAD CAN BE!!!
If God declare something DEAD, it is DEAD FOREVER.... And DEAD IN GOD'S EYES DOES NOT EVEN EXIST.... So the sin of the NEW CREATURE is DEAD!... And not even the new creature can give that sin life again... It is removed as far as the East is from the West, from the OLD SINNER. The New creature has NO SIN, and DO NO SIN. He is on the other side of the NARROW gate IN CHRIST... and IN HIM IS NO SIN...
How can I say I sin and still I am in Christ? IN HIM IS NO SIN... And if I am in Truth and I am IN HIM, how can I say I still sin? Also how can I say I am in Him if I still sin? Sin is sin and the Holy Spirit tells us when we sin.... If the Holy Spirit still reproof me of sin, how can I say I am reborn? Or if I know I still sin, how can I claim that Christ is in me, and I in Him? God says clearly sinners are of the devil.... Yet HE CAN SAVE us from the devil, and HE CAN DESTROY the works of the devil for us...
I know one thing... ALL who are in Christ, is NEW CREATURES... and in Him is NO SIN... I am NOT in Him YET, but I trust HE WILL HAVE ME ENTER INTO THE STRAIGHT GATE... INTO HIM!
If God makes us perfectly one with HIM, do you think ANY person made ONE WITH GOD is still a imperfect soul? NEVER! Every soul and spirit made ONE WITH GOD, and JESUS... IS PERFECT ONE WITH GOD... Perfect, even the flesh follows that holiness IN CHRIST.
When a person is one in GOD the mind is God's, the spirit is God's, the soul is God's and the flesh is God's. God says it is a NEW CREATURE... BEHOLD... hey.... BEHOLD EVERYTHING is NEW.... The OLD HAS PASSED (DIED) DEAD AS DEAD CAN BE!!!
If God declare something DEAD, it is DEAD FOREVER.... And DEAD IN GOD'S EYES DOES NOT EVEN EXIST.... So the sin of the NEW CREATURE is DEAD!... And not even the new creature can give that sin life again... It is removed as far as the East is from the West, from the OLD SINNER. The New creature has NO SIN, and DO NO SIN. He is on the other side of the NARROW gate IN CHRIST... and IN HIM IS NO SIN...
How can I say I sin and still I am in Christ? IN HIM IS NO SIN... And if I am in Truth and I am IN HIM, how can I say I still sin? Also how can I say I am in Him if I still sin? Sin is sin and the Holy Spirit tells us when we sin.... If the Holy Spirit still reproof me of sin, how can I say I am reborn? Or if I know I still sin, how can I claim that Christ is in me, and I in Him? God says clearly sinners are of the devil.... Yet HE CAN SAVE us from the devil, and HE CAN DESTROY the works of the devil for us...
I know one thing... ALL who are in Christ, is NEW CREATURES... and in Him is NO SIN... I am NOT in Him YET, but I trust HE WILL HAVE ME ENTER INTO THE STRAIGHT GATE... INTO HIM!
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I had written..."Perfection in this life is impossible. Have you met anyone perfect?"
to which you responded..
I asked an honest question and got a double accusation.
This only confirms to me the scripture...
But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. (Gal 4:29)
It is also now in application as those who rely on the flesh (works of the law) persecute those who rely on God's Promise (faith in the Gospel).
The works of the flesh as opposed to the fruit of the Spirit become apparent with those who's righteousness is based on their own doing and are these...
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
(Gal 5:19-21)
There, now your 'sinless selfrighteousness' don't look so pretty.
to which you responded..
I asked an honest question and got a double accusation.
This only confirms to me the scripture...
But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. (Gal 4:29)
It is also now in application as those who rely on the flesh (works of the law) persecute those who rely on God's Promise (faith in the Gospel).
The works of the flesh as opposed to the fruit of the Spirit become apparent with those who's righteousness is based on their own doing and are these...
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
(Gal 5:19-21)
There, now your 'sinless selfrighteousness' don't look so pretty.
Cobus although we are robed in his righteousness (positional righteousness) we still await when we will be as He is...
For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.
(Gal 5:5)
but not perfect yet...
Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
(1Jn 3:2)
For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.
(Gal 5:5)
but not perfect yet...
Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
(1Jn 3:2)
We are free from the POWER of sin. Not sin in totality, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We still make mistakes, I have done and said things that Holy Spirit convicted me of doing and had to ask forgiveness and repent. I will by no means stand and declare that I am perfect. That in itself is a SIN.
POINT 1: It is also now in application as those who rely on the flesh (works of the law) persecute those who rely on God's Promise (faith in the Gospel).
Point 2: The works of the flesh as opposed to the fruit of the Spirit become apparent with those who's righteousness is based on their own doing and are these...
Typed by Crossnote
POINT 1:
All reborn of god does not rely on flesh. Their flesh is now under the control of God's Spirit, just as Jesus' flesh were MOVED by the Holy Ghost and all holy men EVER... 2 Peter 1:21... ALL HOLY MEN ARE MOVED BY THE HOLY GHOST... all their WORKS are GOD AT WORK. It is not Works of the law, but GOOD WORKS OF GOD!!! This is what God's perfect people do... That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Do you see the difference? God makes ALL HIS MEN PERFECT TO DO GOOD WORKS... IT IS NOT THE WORKS THAT MAKES THE MAN PERFECT, it is the PERFECT MAN THAT DO THE WORKS!!!! God made the flesh perfect to WORK GOOD! You have it the wrong way round my friend.
Point 2
The works of the flesh with the sinning human spirit is only sin when the sinning spirit of the man is still LOST... sin is only done by sinning human spirits that still fall.... But God comes and He calls that spirit unto Him, and god leads that spirit OUT OF SIN AND INTO HIM.... God calls it DEING OFF THE WORKS OF THE FLESH... SIN.... And REPENTANCE is given to that spirit, to RESIST the lusts of the flesh, and take GOD'S WAY OUT... And so the OLD MAN IS CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST... and the NEW MAN to the LIKENESS OF CHRIST can be REBORN... to be PERFECT and thoroughly furnished unto ALL GOOD WORKS....
Thos old has died, and the NEW LIFE IS IN CHRIST...
Point 2: The works of the flesh as opposed to the fruit of the Spirit become apparent with those who's righteousness is based on their own doing and are these...
Typed by Crossnote
POINT 1:
All reborn of god does not rely on flesh. Their flesh is now under the control of God's Spirit, just as Jesus' flesh were MOVED by the Holy Ghost and all holy men EVER... 2 Peter 1:21... ALL HOLY MEN ARE MOVED BY THE HOLY GHOST... all their WORKS are GOD AT WORK. It is not Works of the law, but GOOD WORKS OF GOD!!! This is what God's perfect people do... That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Do you see the difference? God makes ALL HIS MEN PERFECT TO DO GOOD WORKS... IT IS NOT THE WORKS THAT MAKES THE MAN PERFECT, it is the PERFECT MAN THAT DO THE WORKS!!!! God made the flesh perfect to WORK GOOD! You have it the wrong way round my friend.
Point 2
The works of the flesh with the sinning human spirit is only sin when the sinning spirit of the man is still LOST... sin is only done by sinning human spirits that still fall.... But God comes and He calls that spirit unto Him, and god leads that spirit OUT OF SIN AND INTO HIM.... God calls it DEING OFF THE WORKS OF THE FLESH... SIN.... And REPENTANCE is given to that spirit, to RESIST the lusts of the flesh, and take GOD'S WAY OUT... And so the OLD MAN IS CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST... and the NEW MAN to the LIKENESS OF CHRIST can be REBORN... to be PERFECT and thoroughly furnished unto ALL GOOD WORKS....
Thos old has died, and the NEW LIFE IS IN CHRIST...