The Holiness Movement

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A

AnandaHya

Guest
#21
I don't believe in second baptism but I believe in the Holy Spirit manifesting His power in the lives of believers to aid them to spread the gospel and show God's love to the world for the glorification of His name.

I don't think people can control this power any more then they could control God and hold the wind with their bare hands. Neither do I think miracles, gifts and signs should be the focus but GOD and His will.

However I also think people like to pretend to have power and control when they do not.
 
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Aug 12, 2010
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#22
There is an even bigger argument for post conversion EVENTS where people keep getting filled with the spirit. That's ultimately what matters. After you're saved, are you still seeking to be filled?
Do you just mean...seeking to grow as a Christian?

In sound doctrine?

Or something more supernatural?
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#23
Do you just mean...seeking to grow as a Christian?

In sound doctrine?

Or something more supernatural?
I'd say any influence of the spirit on your life is supernatural.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#26
*wonders if my long empty space after YES made zone's head explode*
i did pause...and gasp.
and pondered what i could say without getting banned:D

then there it was.
you......brat.
 
Feb 16, 2011
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#27
I went to a Holiness Bible College and have spent years as a Pentecostal Holiness believer. Here is little of what we were taught in Bible College. I quote one of my textbooks:

We do not believe in sanctification, as some say, as a 2nd definite work of grace, which follows salvation (1st work of God's grace). We believe in sanctification as a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. work of God's grace without end until we get to heaven. A continuous work of grace!
From Pentecostal Catechism by Rev. Warren D. Combs
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#28
I went to a Holiness Bible College and have spent years as a Pentecostal Holiness believer. Here is little of what we were taught in Bible College. I quote one of my textbooks:

We do not believe in sanctification, as some say, as a 2nd definite work of grace, which follows salvation (1st work of God's grace). We believe in sanctification as a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. work of God's grace without end until we get to heaven. A continuous work of grace!
From Pentecostal Catechism by Rev. Warren D. Combs
Pentecostal Assemblies Of God
Of America


Statement Of Faith



1. In the verbal inspiration and inerrancy of the Scriptures, both the Old and New Testaments.


2. Our God is a trinity in unity, manifested in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.


3. In the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, His virgin birth, His sinless life, His miracles, His vicarious and atoning death on the cross, His bodily resurrection, His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory.


4. That regeneration (the New Birth) by the Holy Ghost for the salvation of lost and sinful mankind, through personal faith in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, is absolutely essential.


5. In a life of holiness, without which no man can see the Lord, through sanctification as a definite, yet progressive, work of grace.


6. In the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, received subsequent to the new birth, with speaking in other tongues, as the Spirit gives the utterance, as the initial physical sign and evidence.


7. In water baptism by immersion for believers only, which is a direct commandment of our Lord, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son (the Lord Jesus Christ), and of the Holy Spirit.


8. In the Lord's supper and washing of the Saint's feet.


9. That divine healing is provided for in the atonement, and is available to all who truly believe.


10. In the Pre-millennial second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ; First, to resurrect the righteous dead and to catch away the living saints to meet him in the air (the Rapture); and, Second, to reign on the earth a thousand years.


11. In the bodily resurrection of both the saved and the lost: they that are saved unto the resurrection of life, and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation.


12. PAGA is willing to fellowship all sound Christian believers who are contending for the love of God, and the principles of Christ as revealed in the Holy Bible. However, we cannot and will not endorse or approve radical teachings which gender strife and tend to divide the body of Christ. We firmly stand against and denounce homosexuality, adultery, sexual perversion, scientific interference with natural human progeny, same-sex marriages, pornography, gambling, drug use and partaking of intoxicants, physical abuse, Satanism, or divination in any form. No PAGA minister or affiliate shall be required, but rather prohibited from compromising these principles of faith.


13. In all other teachings, doctrines, principles and standards in the Holy Bible, as interpreted by the Pentecostal Assemblies of God of America.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#30
Preceding the emergence of the Pentecostal movement in the late 19th in America and Great Britain was the Restoration movement (e.g. they call it the Stone-Campbell Movement in seminary) that began on the American frontier during the Second Great Awakening of the early 19th century which purposed to restore Apostolic Christianity. Interestingly, Christians in the Restoration Movement did not consider themselves Protestants, Anglicans, or Catholics. The Churches of Christ came out of this movement.

My view is that each Christian revival has its own unique issues, problems, and challenges arising for many reasons usually including cultural, leadership, etc... factors.
 
May 21, 2009
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#31
Acts 2
5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
8And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabianswe hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.”
12And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”


what do we have?

we have:

1) in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
2) the miracle of Pentecost
3) the devout men from every nation under heaven saying:
how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?...we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God

i wonder what the miracle of languages was?


13But others made a joke of it and derisively said, They are simply drunk and full of sweet [intoxicating] wine.
14But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them: You Jews and all you residents of Jerusalem, let this be [explained] to you so that you will know and understand; listen closely to what I have to say.
15For these men are not drunk, as you imagine, for it is [only] the third hour (about 9:00 a.m.) of the day;
16But [instead] this is [the beginning of] what was spoken through the prophet Joel:
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, God declares, that I will pour out of My Spirit upon all mankind, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy [[b]telling forth the divine counsels] and your young men shall see visions ([c]divinely granted appearances), and your old men shall dream [[d]divinely suggested] dreams.
18Yes, and on My menservants also and on My maidservants in those days I will pour out of My Spirit, and they shall prophesy [[e]telling forth the divine counsels and [f]predicting future events pertaining especially to God's kingdom].



 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#32
Linda
you have it backwards, okay?
but you won't believe that.

in any case, Peter said Pentecost was what Joel prophesied.
there's zero that says Latter Rain outpouring.

it says the opposite.

anyways.
have a great day linda
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#33

all i needs is my daily grace
 
May 2, 2011
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#34
The Holiness Movement
The Holiness Movement - SermonAudio.com

church history series.

audio sermon MP3 56 min.
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY -- WAYNE GRUDEM*

-----------------------------------------------------

THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION 1/2
[mp3]scottsdalebible.com/assets/audio/christian-essentials/20080302WGrudem.mp3[/mp3]

THE DOCTRINE OF
JUSTIFICATION 2/2
[mp3]scottsdalebible.com/assets/audio/christian-essentials/20080309WGrudem.mp3[/mp3]

-----------------------------------------------------

THE DOCTRINE OF
CONVERSION - FAITH AND REPENTANCE
[mp3]scottsdalebible.com/assets/audio/christian-essentials/20080217WGrudem.mp3[/mp3]

-----------------------------------------------------

THE DOCTRINE OF REGENERATION
[mp3]scottsdalebible.com/assets/audio/christian-essentials/20080210WGrudem.mp3[/mp3]

-----------------------------------------------------


THE DOCTRINE OF SANCTIFICATION 1/3
[mp3]scottsdalebible.com/assets/audio/christian-essentials/20080330WGrudem.mp3[/mp3]

THE DOCTRINE OF
SANCTIFICATION 2/3
[mp3]scottsdalebible.com/assets/audio/christian-essentials/20080406WGrudem.mp3[/mp3]

THE DOCTRINE OF
SANCTIFICATION 3/3
[mp3]scottsdalebible.com/assets/audio/christian-essentials/20080413WGrudem.mp3[/mp3]



* Reference [over 200] reviews and other information at:
Link -->> Amazon.com: Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine (9780310286707): Wayne Grudem: Books
 
May 2, 2011
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#35
Preceding the emergence of the Pentecostal movement in the late 19th in America and Great Britain was the Restoration movement (e.g. they call it the Stone-Campbell Movement in seminary) that began on the American frontier during the Second Great Awakening of the early 19th century which purposed to restore Apostolic Christianity. Interestingly, Christians in the Restoration Movement did not consider themselves Protestants, Anglicans, or Catholics. The Churches of Christ came out of this movement.

My view is that each Christian revival has its own unique issues, problems, and challenges arising for many reasons usually including cultural, leadership, etc... factors.

Church of Christ
Note that this movement was mainly out of New England and concentrated in Upstate New
York and parts of Pennsylvania. You are correct, the Campbellites became the Church of
Christ.

Mormon/LDS
Joe Smith came out of New England (New Hampshire) and initiated the Mormon Religion in
Upstate New York in Palmyra, outside Rochester.

SDA - Seventh Day Adventists
William Miller came out of New England (Western Massachusetts) and initiated the SDA
Concepts in Eastern New York. Ellen G. White and her contemporaries picked up the
concept - they were mainly from New England as well.

No Church or Religion *(tho he was affiliated with the Presbyterian)

Charles Finney, a native of Upstate New York, an Attorney at Law and well associated with
the Freemasonic Guild preached to the masonic brethren and developed a Systematic
Theology approach.

meanwhile back in New England (also Western Massachusetts) Jonathan Edwards was
plying his wares in the trade.

The [first] U.S. Civil War ensued.


Tell us more of what they say of these thing 'in seminary'.
 
Aug 18, 2011
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#37
Personally I don't understand how any Man or Woman can consider themselves perfect for if they do their must have been something they overlooked.

If you say you have benn absolved of all sins while in the flesh this simply cannot be true. All you have to do is apply common sense and it will tell you that you are far from perfect even those like the pope and the most pious man in the world!

To say you have reached perfection while in the flesh is analogous to a Barn without a roof and every time it rains (we sin) all that is stored in the barn is reduced in its worth or measure or ruined.
We will never be perfect in the flesh until we are not in the flesh anymore as it is the perverbial anchor that keeps us tied to this realm of existence and The flesh's weaknesses are inherrent from birth I.E. original sin which allows us to accept or recieve more sin as we grow older. For if we were in the spirit purely we would be incapable of sin. Yet we are not... We are constructed of both flesh and spirit in varying proportions according to divine design. When we are in the flesh no more the roofs on the barn and everything is saved from ruin when you have faith in God and if you have no faith or reject him then your roof is never completed

I'm not quite sure how the heresy of perfectionism got started but common sense dictates that it is truly that A HERESY
 
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D

Deadflesh

Guest
#38
Positional and Practical Righteousness

[SIZE=+1]"Now we practically sin every day, right, so practically[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]we are still sinners, practically speaking."(1)[/SIZE]​



[SIZE=+1]uch to the dismay of those who try to make themselves a license for sin, the Bible says that we are to be practically righteous, not practically sinners.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning." [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]1 John 3:7-9 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
Our true character is shown by our conduct. If it was true that we could continue to live as sinners and still be classified as righteous, John could not make this distinction. True conversion not only is intelligent but dramatically effects' our lifestyle. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
The word translated right is the same root word as righteous and is the same righteousness imputed to believers in Romans three and four, real practical righteousness. Some will insist that the gospel makes no provision for making us righteous, but as we see in this passage there is a clear connection. A connection that insists that one is useless without the other.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]
Some ministers will go so far as to leave you with the impression that the only practical difference between a Christian and an unbeliever is a set of purely intellectual or emotional issues. This is a grave error. The scripture is plain: your conduct reveals whether you're righteous or of the devil. I'm not saying you have to work to receive Christ's righteousness. I am saying that someone who has received Christ's righteousness will live as a child of the light and bear the fruit of righteousness. Though all of us can still sin, the standard we should measure ourselves against is righteousness.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Redemption[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]
The Bible teaches that; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]"Christ gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people zealous for good works" (Titus 2:14).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
In the theology Hank holds to, Christ's righteousness is not imputed to us in a way that would purify us from all wickedness.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
Rather in Hanks view we can keep much wickedness in our lives, only now God is blind to it. Therefore we can continue living the life of a sinner while being viewed as righteous.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
Hank told me that:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]"We are positionally accounted as righteous before God because we have transferred to our account all of the righteousness of Christ, so when God looks at us he doesn't see us in the context of our sin, but he sees us in the context of the righteousness of Christ. But practically we still sin and we will till the day we die."(2)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
This is truly prostituting the bible, 1 John 3:7-9 would have to be mutilated to fit in with this theology. Wouldn't the Devil laugh to read-He who lives sinfully is righteous even as he is righteous? He who is sinful is practically of the devil, but God cannot see that and sees you as righteous, if you believe Hank's theology, the whole idea is revolting.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Spiritual Healing[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]
Despite Hanegraaff insisting that we can not be practically righteous, he himself frequently explains one of the reasons why we can and should be practically righteous, while being blind to the implications. Hank has pointed out that the Faith teachers have banked on Isaiah 53:5 as a guarantee of physical healing. In his reply to this he has on several occasions pointed out that the healing referred to in this verse is spiritual rather then physical. In the context of pointing this out he often quotes 1 Peter 2:24-25. The truth is Christ has provided for our spiritual healing so we might "die to sin and live to righteousness". [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
"Isaiah 53:5 say's by his stripes we are healed so the question is what does it mean to say that I am Healed? What does the word rapha actually mean, and the word rapha actually means that we are healed not physically of necessity but spiritually. You determine the meaning of rapha in this context by what the broader context of what Isaiah is trying to say really is, right. and if you look at the context, in the broader context you find out what is being talked about is spiritual healing. What are we being healed of? Well were being healed of transgressions and Iniquities . . . You can take this beyond Isaiah 53 you can take this to 1 Peter 2:24-25 Because really you have peter rephrasing what Isaiah said. Peter said 'he himself bore our sins on his body so that we might die to sin but live to righteousness, by his wounds we have been healed. You were like sheep that had gone astray, but you have returned to the shepherd and overseer of your souls'. Now Peter's theme is absolutely crystal clear, Christ bore our sin's not our sicknesses."[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1](3)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
Hank made the same point in his book.(4) The point I am trying to make is this. Some people seem to be teaching Christ bore our sin's so that we could live in sin (practically sinners ) but be considered righteous. This is not the word of God. The bible teaches he bore our sins so we could die to sin and live to righteousness. It amazes me that Hank could quote this verse and yet so often teach the opposite. This is how we should live. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]"For you were once darkness but now you are light in the Lord[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Live as children of light for the fruit of the light consists in all[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]goodness righteousness and truth . . . have nothing to do with the[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]fruitless deeds of darkness rather expose them."[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Ephesians 5 8-12[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Instruments of Righteousness[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]
Beyond a doubt the word righteous does imply a title or position, but it is only applicable as related to practice. IE a ruler rules one who does not is not really a ruler. I am not at odds with the statement that we are positionally righteous; I believe it, but we should also be practically righteous. We are told to offer ourselves to God as "Instruments of righteousness" in Rom. 6:13. If someone says they're born again, and have received Christ's righteousness, he should bear the fruit of a practical righteousness. This is clearly the result of a true work of Christ in the heart. This righteousness was received when we turned from sin and put our faith in Christ. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
We received justification through eternal redemption (being set free from sin) Romans 3:24. We entered the new covenant:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time say's the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Hebrews 10:16[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
While Calvin seemed to of felt content promoting a justification that would remove consequences while only partially changing the heart God is not. While the blood of goats and bulls only dealt with the external, the blood of Christ does much more. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]"The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God" [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Hebrews 9:13-14.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
The Scripture makes it clear that, while the old covenant only made provision for outward cleansing, the new covenant in Christ has provided for inward cleansing, that we might live for God. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Did Christ Die in our Place, or Obey in our Place?[/SIZE] (See also Justification)
[SIZE=+1]
When the Bible speaks about the gospel, Christ's vicarious atonement and redemption are central; in contrast, when Hank speaks about the gospel, the main emphasis is on what he considers Christ's substitutionary obedience. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]"He lived the perfect life in our place which we could never live, and he offers it to you (Mark) as an absolutely free gift"(5)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
This sounds very nice, but as we examine this idea, you can see the wolf under the sheep's clothing. We both agree that Christ's death was vicarious; but his life is imparted - not substituted - in the sense that he understands it (Rom 8:11). To quote Finney:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]"The idea is absurd and impossible for this reason: Jesus Christ was bound to obey the Law for himself. It was his duty to love the Lord his God with all his heart, soul, mind and strength and to love his neighbor as himself. If he had not done so, it would have been sin.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Although Christ owed perfect obedience to the Law himself, and could not therefore obey as our substitute, yet since he perfectly obeyed, he owed no suffering to the Law or to the Divine Government on his own account. He could therefore suffer for us. This is the true basis for the Gospel - not that Christ obeyed for us, but that he died for us. He took the punishment we deserved.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]The doctrine of imputed righteousness represents God as requiring:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]A) That Christ should render perfect obedience for us[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]B) That he should die just as if no such obedience had been rendered.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]C) That we should repent and obey[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Does God exact triple service?"(6)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
Why would someone invent such a philosophy as this? The Bible does represent righteousness as being imputed to us, but those who hold to this doctrine seem to want righteousness without redemption. It seems that they have devised an understanding of imputed righteousness that eliminates the need for true repentance. Perhaps this relieves them from a sense of obligation; perhaps this allows them to continue in sin without a deep sense that this is offensive to God. Whatever the reason, in their understanding obedience can be looked at with fondness as a nice ideal, while at the same time be rejected as unnecessary. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]
It is foolish to say that he obeyed in our place for him to do that he would have to live in our place. This would not make us practically righteous it would make us practically nonexistent, I hope you are getting the picture.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]The basis for this misunderstanding lies in a principle of responsibility.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
If a man named John sent flowers to his wife, though another delivers them he gets the credit, because he is the agent responsible for the act.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]If John sends an assassin to kill his wife, both have guilt. In this case John may not have pulled the trigger but he is responsible for the murder because he initiated it. In the first case the delivery driver acted (obeyed) in his place, In the second case the assassin obeyed in his place. A more biblical example is found when we consider how David arranged for Uriahs death. This principle is at the basis for Hank's belief that Christ obeyed (Lived his life) in our place. The principle is valid, but only for the person who appointed the act. In the case of our Lord it was the Father who appointed him;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]"I have come down from Heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me" (John 8:38). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
In the sense above mentioned the Son acted in his Fathers place. Both roles portray pure virtue, and not one of us can take credit for what they have done. Do I need add more? It is plain that Jesus did not do our will he did the Fathers.[/SIZE]
"Our own righteousness, we confess, is "filthy rags," and Jesus said, "Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter Into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:20). We must have the inwrought righteousness of Christ. Not a robe simply, that covers our unrighteousness, leaving us sinful and unholy, but His righteousness imparted to us. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9). If all unrighteousness is cleansed away, then certainly there is righteousness in its place. If the atonement of Christ cannot get down as deep as sin has gone, it must be a failure. But who would say that Christ made a failure in His atonement?"[SIZE=+1](7)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Part II Part III[/SIZE]

 
Jan 14, 2010
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#40
i want to make a correction:

zine posted earlier in the first page info:

The Holiness Movement
Written by Gary Gilley
(December 2004 - Volume 10, Issue 12)

(not going to copy the entire thing)... anyways, it mentions Charles Finney "advancing" what John Wesley taught, labeling Arminians as Semi-Pelagian, or, at the worst, Pelagians....

THIS IS FLAT OUT WRONG AND FALSE.

Charles Finney was a Semi-Pelagian, and the inventor of the sinner's prayer... John Wesley was an Arminian, and NEVER held to any kind of Pelgian beliefs. Arminians do not hold to either Pelagianism, or Semi-Pelagianism. the Calvinist authors of the Book Why I Am Not an Arminian on page 39 ADMIT that classical Arminians and 18th century Arminians both held that it was God's grace that starts everything, were NOT semi-Pelagians, and that they were more "semi-Augustinian" than to Pelaginaism or Semi-Pelagianism