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C
House of Omri - Conservapedia
This info should be read before replying, as the worship of baal is involved....not my cup of tea...just helping with a link
This info should be read before replying, as the worship of baal is involved....not my cup of tea...just helping with a link
D
Thanks! A good start, that. This link will add a little information:
Omri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Omri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
D
It would probably also be useful to look at History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The real interest for us will probably be that the Prophets Amos and Hosea wrote against the sins of Omri and the other kings of Israel: also the careers of Elijah and Elisha take place during their reigns.
The real interest for us will probably be that the Prophets Amos and Hosea wrote against the sins of Omri and the other kings of Israel: also the careers of Elijah and Elisha take place during their reigns.
K
As far out as you please. Who is who now? For example, are the Wahabis and Salafists on Elisha's side, or are they they latest evolution of idolatry?
I think there is more fruit to be gained from exploring why the Biblical and secular histories of Omri and his successors are so different. Especially since Omri took over part of Assyria, originally part of God's intention to Moses and Joshua. The dual interpretation says volumes about the Catholic history of the Body of Christ.
Related question, maybe. What became of the prophets of the groves who opposed Elijah along with the prophets of Baal? compare I Kings 18: vs. 19 and vs. 40
D
Wow, the Wikipedia page I linked on the Monarchy was useless in the extreme.
I think this chart is handy
http://oldtestamentsurvey.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/the-kings-of-israel-reign-only.jpg
I was proposing the Omri- through Joram period as a relatively coherent one, both as regards royal policies and prophetic opposition. You are as usual correct: I am pointing to a fairly close parallel between the Rechabites and the Wahabis. Not a value judgement: but a useful comparison for understanding how a very austere position can command popular support.
You're going to have to help me on the dual interpretation and the Body of Christ. I'm not sure I follow.
I'm not sure I'd read that much into the absence of the Asherah-prophets. As the god of storms, Baal and his priests would have been the only relevant participants in the prayer contest in time of drought.
I think this chart is handy
http://oldtestamentsurvey.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/the-kings-of-israel-reign-only.jpg
I was proposing the Omri- through Joram period as a relatively coherent one, both as regards royal policies and prophetic opposition. You are as usual correct: I am pointing to a fairly close parallel between the Rechabites and the Wahabis. Not a value judgement: but a useful comparison for understanding how a very austere position can command popular support.
You're going to have to help me on the dual interpretation and the Body of Christ. I'm not sure I follow.
I'm not sure I'd read that much into the absence of the Asherah-prophets. As the god of storms, Baal and his priests would have been the only relevant participants in the prayer contest in time of drought.
K
Then a deeper question is why is it omitted from the Bible that way? The Bible makes Omri sound like a major villain, not as a unifying force.
I suppose it depends on your take on Biblical inspiration. If you believe as most here do, that God guided the writer's choices in the Bible, to report what God wanted written, then the difference in Biblical vs. political interpretation is striking. Thus the omission of the Asherah prophets has a reason in God's mind. If you do not accept the prevalent view, it is just coincidence, I suppose. I once had a dream that the Asherah prophets became the Germanic subculture that stirred up the Third Reich. I could not make a historical case for it. But I still wonder where they went.
Omri followed Jeroboam's decision to split the kingdoms, and was not on God's favorite side. Yet he expanded Israelite influence and set up a worldly kingdom, though of more pagan leanings than the author of Kings would have liked. The roman Catholic church took the early church of James + Paul's outreaches, and combined it with the worldly government. Again, a growing, sucessful worldly kingdom which many feel is not what God would have wanted. The analogy works that far.
It goes a little farther: The pope can be held analgous to Ahab, incorporating pagan practices by marrying the Jezebel's of paganism. Now, who is Elijah in history? Is there one? Where is Samaria in all this - Rome? questions, no answers.
I suppose it depends on your take on Biblical inspiration. If you believe as most here do, that God guided the writer's choices in the Bible, to report what God wanted written, then the difference in Biblical vs. political interpretation is striking. Thus the omission of the Asherah prophets has a reason in God's mind. If you do not accept the prevalent view, it is just coincidence, I suppose. I once had a dream that the Asherah prophets became the Germanic subculture that stirred up the Third Reich. I could not make a historical case for it. But I still wonder where they went.
Omri followed Jeroboam's decision to split the kingdoms, and was not on God's favorite side. Yet he expanded Israelite influence and set up a worldly kingdom, though of more pagan leanings than the author of Kings would have liked. The roman Catholic church took the early church of James + Paul's outreaches, and combined it with the worldly government. Again, a growing, sucessful worldly kingdom which many feel is not what God would have wanted. The analogy works that far.
It goes a little farther: The pope can be held analgous to Ahab, incorporating pagan practices by marrying the Jezebel's of paganism. Now, who is Elijah in history? Is there one? Where is Samaria in all this - Rome? questions, no answers.
D
If we're going to sip a ladle from the Typology pot, sure. Then Elijah would be Luther (and I'm sure somewhere in Reformation history someone has drawn that parallel. Actually, the assumption that not so much as an omission is without theological significance is a very traditionally Jewish view of Torah, and the same style of exegesis is applied, less consistently, to other scriptural books.
Maybe this would be a good time to ask you where you stand on the whole "higher criticism" question.
Maybe this would be a good time to ask you where you stand on the whole "higher criticism" question.
K
I tend to follow Jewish interpretation of the OT. In most cases I rely on my experience to interact with the Bible (broadly defined). That's not too relevant here; I was just making a proposal to build the discussion, as CFultz kind of asked me to. I would not count Luther, as I see no miracles and no showdown that is really comparable. I'm not sure the parallel is even valid.
I see little we can learn from the study of Omri and heirs from the Bible itself. Comparison to secular history is more interesting, and enables us to reflect on the idea of "opinions of men" vs. "opinions of God". What do you see in it, that perhaps you hope to share with us?
I see little we can learn from the study of Omri and heirs from the Bible itself. Comparison to secular history is more interesting, and enables us to reflect on the idea of "opinions of men" vs. "opinions of God". What do you see in it, that perhaps you hope to share with us?
D
I agree that the comparison with secular history is the more profitable course. I think the parallel Omri/ Rechabites and the Saud/ Wahabi is the one that will yield results. The We see a similar struggle between the Hasmoneans and the Hasidim.
In New Testament it doesn't look as though the party of purification is so easily disengaged: probably because we have so much more information. Were we as poorly informed about Jesus as we are about Elijah, the Pharisees, Saduccees, Essenes and Zealots would all have been telescoped into a single group with Jesus as their leader and exponent!
In New Testament it doesn't look as though the party of purification is so easily disengaged: probably because we have so much more information. Were we as poorly informed about Jesus as we are about Elijah, the Pharisees, Saduccees, Essenes and Zealots would all have been telescoped into a single group with Jesus as their leader and exponent!
K
What kidn of results ae we looking for? I would think some sort of general lesson from Scripture about how to interpret such historical movements? What should that lesson be? It seems any such lesson would require finding the Jezebel and the Elijah, and I'm not sure every such movement has such a charismatic leader on both sides.