The institution of the real presence of Jesus' body in the eucharist.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#41
"Take, Eat, this IS my body, which is broken for you."

Sure seems like we're supposed to eat His Body.

That said, the gate analogy doesn't really make sense here. In that instance, it's quite clear he was speaking figuratively. In the institution of the Eucharist, He's going out of His way to emphasize the literalness of His words.
Yet in John 6 Jesus promised whoever ate of this bread will never die, Never hunger, Never thirst, Live forever, Be raised (not delivered) on the last day. Have eternal life. Not, like the fathers who ate over and over and over) and are dead, but can eat once and live forever.

This surely does not sound like the same bread Jesus broke. For whoever eats that bread is guaranteed NONE of the promises Jesus himself made in John 6.


As Jesus said, whoever does not eat is dead (has no life) whoever eats it has life. A life he calls eternal in nature. And will never die. If you will never die, you never have to eat again.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#42
hmmm going to have to read this when I get more time.....

But Jesus tells us what we need to get into Heaven and He did not mention the Eucharist...


John 3
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”


Romans 10:8-11
New King James Version (NKJV)
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”[a](that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[b
 
H

Hearer

Guest
#43
hmmm going to have to read this when I get more time.....

But Jesus tells us what we need to get into Heaven and He did not mention the Eucharist...


John 3
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Romans 10:8-11
New King James Version (NKJV)
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”[a](that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[b
1) In RC church the spirit transforms the gifts of bread and wine and water.
2)The mass celebrates the death and resurrection of Jesus and his authority in heaven to heal us.

We have this celebration because we are baprtised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and can commune with God and with each other.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#44
1) why do you take as implied thaat Jesus is "just" speaking spiritually when he is adamant and emphatic that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood.
even if that were true,

He is Alive.
and not here. He is Risen.

so there's no flesh.

and we need that precious blood applied by our High Priest to our sins.

so, all you're left with is a wicked alchemy performed by superstition, which claims men have to power to (re)create the Body and Blood of Jesus.


What is transubstantiation?


Answer: Transubstantiation is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines this doctrine in section 1376:

"The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: ‘Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.’"

In other words, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that once an ordained priest blesses the bread of the Lord's Supper, it is transformed into the actual flesh of Christ (though it retains the appearance, odor, and taste of bread); and when he blesses the wine, it is transformed into the actual blood of Christ (though it retains the appearance, odor, and taste of wine). Is such a concept biblical? There are some Scriptures that, if interpreted strictly literally, would lead to the “real presence” of Christ in the bread and wine. Examples are John 6:32-58; Matthew 26:26; Luke 22:17-23; and 1 Corinthians 11:24-25. The passage pointed to most frequently is John 6:32-58 and especially verses 53-57, “Jesus said to them, ‘I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life … For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him … so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.’”

Roman Catholics interpret this passage literally and apply its message to the Lord’s Supper, which they title the “Eucharist” or “Mass.” Those who reject the idea of transubstantiation interpret Jesus’ words in John 6:53-57 figuratively or symbolically. How can we know which interpretation is correct? Thankfully, Jesus made it exceedingly obvious what He meant. John 6:63 declares, “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.” Jesus specifically stated that His words are “spirit.” Jesus was using physical concepts, eating and drinking, to teach spiritual truth. Just as consuming physical food and drink sustains our physical bodies, so are our spiritual lives saved and built up by spiritually receiving Him, by grace through faith. Eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking His blood are symbols of fully and completely receiving Him in our lives.

The Scriptures declare that the Lord's Supper is a memorial to the body and blood of Christ (Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24-25), not the actual consumption of His physical body and blood. When Jesus was speaking in John chapter 6, Jesus had not yet had the Last Supper with His disciples, in which He instituted the Lord’s Supper. To read the Lord’s Supper / Christian Communion back into John chapter 6 is unwarranted. For a more complete discussion of these issues, please read our article on the Holy Eucharist.

The most serious reason transubstantiation should be rejected is that it is viewed by the Roman Catholic Church as a "re-sacrifice" of Jesus Christ for our sins, or as a “re-offering / re-presentation” of His sacrifice. This is directly in contradiction to what Scripture says, that Jesus died "once for all" and does not need to be sacrificed again (Hebrews 10:10; 1 Peter 3:18). Hebrews 7:27 declares, "Unlike the other high priests, He (Jesus) does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins ONCE for all when He offered Himself."

What is transubstantiation?

~

The Right Words

[SIZE=-1]It is a firm belief in magic that if one does not say the incantation exactly right - it's an incantation, not an invocation - there will be no result. One must get the hocus-pocus right. That term is a Protestand insult to the Roman Catholic Mass.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]Those who still would like to cling to the Latin Mass - which the Roman Church did say at the 16th century Council of Trent was forever, an idea dropped after a Vatican council in our century - argue that the words of consencration don't work in other languages, making the Mass more like a Protestant memorial of the Last Supper than a Roman Catholic miracle of transubstantiation on the altar.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]In the history of magic there are reports that the single word Agla, if said in the right way, prodoced extraordinary results. It is also said that merely by pronouncing seven names correctly (Adonai, Perai, Tetragrammaton, Anexhexeton, Inessensatoal, Pathumaton, and Itemon) King Solomon was able to bring all demons under his personal control. The name Primematum holds power over the whole host of Heaven. The name of God commands the hosts of Hell. You open the Gates of Hell by chanting Zazas, Zazas, Nasantanada, Zazas. Closing them is considerably more difficult. You know of the story with 'Open, Sesame!' What was the password for closing?[/SIZE]​

 
H

Hearer

Guest
#45
even if that were true,

He is Alive.
and not here. He is Risen.

so there's no flesh.

and we need that precious blood applied by our High Priest to our sins.

so, all you're left with is a wicked alchemy performed by superstition, which claims men have to power to (re)create the Body and Blood of Jesus.


What is transubstantiation?


Answer: Transubstantiation is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines this doctrine in section 1376:

"The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: ‘Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.’"

In other words, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that once an ordained priest blesses the bread of the Lord's Supper, it is transformed into the actual flesh of Christ (though it retains the appearance, odor, and taste of bread); and when he blesses the wine, it is transformed into the actual blood of Christ (though it retains the appearance, odor, and taste of wine). Is such a concept biblical? There are some Scriptures that, if interpreted strictly literally, would lead to the “real presence” of Christ in the bread and wine. Examples are John 6:32-58; Matthew 26:26; Luke 22:17-23; and 1 Corinthians 11:24-25. The passage pointed to most frequently is John 6:32-58 and especially verses 53-57, “Jesus said to them, ‘I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life … For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him … so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.’”

Roman Catholics interpret this passage literally and apply its message to the Lord’s Supper, which they title the “Eucharist” or “Mass.” Those who reject the idea of transubstantiation interpret Jesus’ words in John 6:53-57 figuratively or symbolically. How can we know which interpretation is correct? Thankfully, Jesus made it exceedingly obvious what He meant. John 6:63 declares, “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.” Jesus specifically stated that His words are “spirit.” Jesus was using physical concepts, eating and drinking, to teach spiritual truth. Just as consuming physical food and drink sustains our physical bodies, so are our spiritual lives saved and built up by spiritually receiving Him, by grace through faith. Eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking His blood are symbols of fully and completely receiving Him in our lives.

The Scriptures declare that the Lord's Supper is a memorial to the body and blood of Christ (Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24-25), not the actual consumption of His physical body and blood. When Jesus was speaking in John chapter 6, Jesus had not yet had the Last Supper with His disciples, in which He instituted the Lord’s Supper. To read the Lord’s Supper / Christian Communion back into John chapter 6 is unwarranted. For a more complete discussion of these issues, please read our article on the Holy Eucharist.

The most serious reason transubstantiation should be rejected is that it is viewed by the Roman Catholic Church as a "re-sacrifice" of Jesus Christ for our sins, or as a “re-offering / re-presentation” of His sacrifice. This is directly in contradiction to what Scripture says, that Jesus died "once for all" and does not need to be sacrificed again (Hebrews 10:10; 1 Peter 3:18). Hebrews 7:27 declares, "Unlike the other high priests, He (Jesus) does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins ONCE for all when He offered Himself."

What is transubstantiation?

~

The Right Words

[SIZE=-1]It is a firm belief in magic that if one does not say the incantation exactly right - it's an incantation, not an invocation - there will be no result. One must get the hocus-pocus right. That term is a Protestand insult to the Roman Catholic Mass.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]Those who still would like to cling to the Latin Mass - which the Roman Church did say at the 16th century Council of Trent was forever, an idea dropped after a Vatican council in our century - argue that the words of consencration don't work in other languages, making the Mass more like a Protestant memorial of the Last Supper than a Roman Catholic miracle of transubstantiation on the altar.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]In the history of magic there are reports that the single word Agla, if said in the right way, prodoced extraordinary results. It is also said that merely by pronouncing seven names correctly (Adonai, Perai, Tetragrammaton, Anexhexeton, Inessensatoal, Pathumaton, and Itemon) King Solomon was able to bring all demons under his personal control. The name Primematum holds power over the whole host of Heaven. The name of God commands the hosts of Hell. You open the Gates of Hell by chanting Zazas, Zazas, Nasantanada, Zazas. Closing them is considerably more difficult. You know of the story with 'Open, Sesame!' What was the password for closing?[/SIZE]​


THe words Jesus used and which are repeated in the mass are "This is my body..." Which if we give Jesus due reverence then we take his words to be spirit and life and we follow him to the letter.

It is also not a re-sacrifce but a participation in the eternal one sacrifice of Jesus. It is a true memorial bringing to the fore the one sacrifice of Jesus. Not just a snack to have every now and again with a watered down emotion. Instead the good catholic has due adoration and love for the presence of God and this especially in the Eucharist. Much prayer and joyful singing occurs at this sincere time.
 
H

Hearer

Guest
#46
Hoc es enim corpus meum

it says, "This is My body." The Extraordinary Form Missals say, "For this is My Body"
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#47
Hoc es enim corpus meum

it says, "This is My body." The Extraordinary Form Missals say, "For this is My Body"
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

since He hadn't been Crucified yet, did He too, at the Last Supper perform transubstantiation and turn the wine into His blood (which hadn't been shed yet)?

did He go around pouring out wine and turning it into blood for the forgiveness of sins? or did He bleed and die?

see He used the word IS? if what you say is true, He actually had them drink His Holy Blood right there at the Last Supper. so why go to the Cross at all? why not just turn every communion service into His Blood and Flesh?

or was it figurative?

get real.
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#48
would make an interesting vampire novel...drinking blood and all....
 
H

Hearer

Guest
#49
Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

since He hadn't been Crucified yet, did He too, at the Last Supper perform transubstantiation and turn the wine into His blood (which hadn't been shed yet)?

did He go around pouring out wine and turning it into blood for the forgiveness of sins? or did He bleed and die?

see He used the word IS? if what you say is true, He actually had them drink His Holy Blood right there at the Last Supper. so why go to the Cross at all? why not just turn every communion service into His Blood and Flesh?

or was it figurative?

get real.
The sacrifice is eternal and was memorialized by Jesus at the last supper in the same way years later we celebrate that one sacrifice. Jesus could, before his impending death still celebrate that one death because he had been slain from the beginning of time:


Revelation 13:8
And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#50
The sacrifice is eternal and was memorialized by Jesus at the last supper in the same way years later we celebrate that one sacrifice. Jesus could, before his impending death still celebrate that one death because he had been slain from the beginning of time:


Revelation 13:8
And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world.

wow.
the lengths ppl will go to twist the scriptures and denegrate the REAL BLOOD and BODY.
sad.
 
H

Hearer

Guest
#51
wow.
the lengths ppl will go to twist the scriptures and denegrate the REAL BLOOD and BODY.
sad.
we reverence the body of Chrst just as much as anyone else, generally, whcih is why we have a crucifix rather than an empty cross.

and empty cross takes away the real incarnation of Christ and spiritualizes him away.
Then the eucharist also celebrates the body of Christ which in the incarnation was sacriiced. But that does not take away the scripture in Revelation!

Revelation 13:8
And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world.

 
R

rainacorn

Guest
#52
So, 2 people take communion.

One thinks it REPRESENTS Christ's body and blood.

The other thinks it has magically turned into Christ's literal body and blood.

Neither one is saved by this action.
 
H

Hearer

Guest
#53
So, 2 people take communion.

One thinks it REPRESENTS Christ's body and blood.

The other thinks it has magically turned into Christ's literal body and blood.

Neither one is saved by this action.
1)the gifts are not magically transformed but are transubstantiated through the Holy Spirit.
2)We are saved through our baptism.
3)but we should not presume upon our salvation but come daily to God for his mercy and transforming love.
 
R

rainacorn

Guest
#54
1)the gifts are not magically transformed but are transubstantiated through the Holy Spirit.
2)We are saved through our baptism.
3)but we should not presume upon our salvation but come daily to God for his mercy and transforming love.
We need to take communion every day and believe it is (magically) transubstantiated into flesh and blood otherwise we are not really saved?

Is that what you're saying?
 
H

Hearer

Guest
#55
We need to take communion every day and believe it is (magically) transubstantiated into flesh and blood otherwise we are not really saved?

Is that what you're saying?
1) We are saved through our baptism

(we should attend mass at least once a week as a communion sacriment.)

2) We should not presume (be presumptuous) upon our salvation but come to God every day for his mercy and transforming grace.
 
Last edited:
R

rainacorn

Guest
#56
1) We are saved through our baptism

(we should attend mass at least once a week as a communion sacriment.)

2) We should not presume upon our salvation but come to God every day for his mercy and transforming grace.

1. uh ok
2. do you think repeating yourself is the same thing as explaining?
 
H

Hearer

Guest
#57
1. uh ok
2. do you think repeating yourself is the same thing as explaining?
it is up to you to think too about what I write. But if you want me to spell it out, we are saved through our baptism not through communion.

we need not attend communion every day but we should still go to God in prayer every day in repentance and not presume that because we are saved through our baptism that we can Lord it over others about "salvation" the way evangelicals and other protestant groups do.

Excuse me for not sounding humble but you need to think a bit too.
 
R

rainacorn

Guest
#58
it is up to you to think too about what I write. But if you want me to spell it out, we are saved through our baptism not through communion.

we need not attend communion every day but we should still go to God in prayer every day in repentance and not presume that because we are saved through our baptism that we can Lord it over others about "salvation" the way evangelicals and other protestant groups do.

Excuse me for not sounding humble but you need to think a bit too.
I am thinking, however I cannot read your mind. If I asked for clarification once, repeating the exact same thing won't change my desire for clarification.

I won't take passive aggressive jabs at you in return, I just want to understand where you're coming from because I honestly don't understand why this thread is an argument.

If communion isn't important to salvation, why does it matter how we view it? If someone thinks it is representative of the body and blood instead of the literal body and blood, does that somehow diminish it? Communion itself is representative of the sacrifice on the cross.
 
H

Hearer

Guest
#59
I am thinking, however I cannot read your mind. If I asked for clarification once, repeating the exact same thing won't change my desire for clarification.

I won't take passive aggressive jabs at you in return, I just want to understand where you're coming from because I honestly don't understand why this thread is an argument.

If communion isn't important to salvation, why does it matter how we view it? If someone thinks it is representative of the body and blood instead of the literal body and blood, does that somehow diminish it? Communion itself is representative of the sacrifice on the cross.
we take communion because Jesus established it, and he instructed us to eat of his body and drink his blood. It is a hard teaching and even Jesus agreed so, but it was necessary to have eternal life amongst other things.

We have communion and share in it because we are saved by the one baptism. We too who partake of Jesus body are one body, the body of Christ.

So whether you think it is necessary or not Jesus said on a number of occassions that we will be partaking of his body and blood.

Some think he was just speaking "spiritually" but that is a cop-out and a heresy which takes away the power of Jesus own words. Protestants want everyone to obey the word but then when we want to obey Jesus own words we are told not to take it seriously only "spirituallY" when they mean spirit as "figurative" as if it a mere parable. It is not a parable that we should obey Jesus own words because he taught his own disciples to eat of his flesh. By God's grace he gives it to us in the form of bread and wine so that we are not cannibals and are not disgusted. But that is God's way.

The catholics seem far more in tune with the mystery of God's real power and presence through the Holy Spirit and will not take Jesus or his words lightly or for granted.

Especially when he himself tells us how solemn he talks and assured he is of his words.His words are very very profoundly said and so cannot be taken lightly.

John 6:53
And Jesus said to them, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, you cannot have any life in you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood
 
A

AnandaHya

Guest
#60
John 6
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[e]Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[g] has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed,[h] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”


what is the "bread"? Jesus tells us it is the WORDs that He speaks to the disciples which is SPIRIT. it is not "figurative" and but is "spiritual" for God is Spirit. That does NOT make it less SERIOUS. Most Christians talk every Word uttered from the Lord quite Seriously.

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


Jesus is the WORD/Bread that came down from Heaven, to eat of His flesh is to consume His words and allow them to live and transform your heart for men shall not live on bread alone but EVERY WORD from God.
 
Last edited: