The Intermediate State & Heaven

[Atwood]

John 14:1-3 is regarded by some as the first reference in the Bible to the Rapture, though "caught up" or "raptured" does not occur in it, as it does in 1 Thes 4:17. John 14:1-3 is consistent with the POV that

When Christ comes back for believers, He will appear in the air, take them up to a meeting in the air, and proceed with them to Heaven, where they shall be during Daniel's 70th week (popularly called the tribulation); then He shall return with them as in Revelation 19 at the end of the trib to take over planet earth & install the Millennial Kingdom; at the end of the 1000 yr Kingdom, Christ puts down a rebellion; the wicked are raised, judged, & put in the Lake of fire; then earth is recreated as a New Earth & the New Jerusalem comes down to earth.

Christians do not agree on all those above details, but generally they do agree that John 14:1-3 speaks of Heaven as the House of Christ's Father with many abodes for believers in Heaven.

John 14:

" Let not your heart be troubled:believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father’s house [oikia] are many dwellings; if it were not so, I would have told you; for
I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. . . .
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, , , , the Spirit of truth: . . .
I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world beholdeth me no more; . . . .

28 Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father; . . . .


Data extracted from Vine's Expository Dictionary:

1. oikos (οἰ̂κος, 3624) denotes
(a) “a house, a dwelling,” e.g., Matt. 9:6, 7; 11:8;

is used of the Tabernacle, as the House of God, Matt. 12:4,
and the Temple similarly, e.g., Matt. 21:13; Luke 11:51, kjv, “temple,” rv, “sanctuary”; John 2:16, 17;

called by the Lord “your house” in Matt. 23:38 and Luke 13:35 (some take this as the city of Jerusalem);

metaphorically of Israel as God’s house, Heb. 3:2, 5, where “his house” is not Moses’, but God’s;
believers, similarly, v. 6, where Christ is spoken of as “over God’s House” (the word “own” is rightly omitted in the rv); Heb. 10:21; 1 Pet. 2:5; 4:17;

of the body, Matt. 12:44; Luke 11:24;

(b) by metonymy,
of the members of a household or family, e.g., Luke 10:5; Acts 7:10; 11:14; 1 Tim. 3:4, 5, 12; 2 Tim. 1:16; 4:19, rv (kjv, “household”); Titus 1:11 (plural);

of a local church, 1 Tim. 3:15;

of the descendants of Jacob (Israel) and David, e.g., Matt. 10:6; Luke 1:27, 33; Acts 2:36; 7:42.

2. oikia (οἰκία, 3614), . . . ;
in Attic law oikos denoted the whole estate, oikia stood for the dwelling only; . . .

In the NT it denotes
(a) “a house, a dwelling,” e.g., Matt. 2:11; 5:15; 7:24-27; 2 Tim. 2:20; 2 John 10;
it is not used of the Tabernacle or the Temple, as in the case of No. 1;

(b) metaphorically,
[1] the heavenly abode, spoken of by the Lord as “My Father’s house,” John 14:2, the eternal dwelling place of believers;

[2] the body as the dwelling place of the soul, 2 Cor. 5:1;
similarly the resurrection body of believers (id.);

[3] property, e.g., Mark 12:40;

[4] by metonymy, the inhabitants of a house, a household, e.g., Matt. 12:25; John 4:53; 1 Cor. 16:15.

 

[ELECT]

1 Thes.4: 16-17


One of the passages of scripture usually quoted by the "heaven bound" believers is 1 Thes.4:16-17. Let's look at these verses to see if they teach or prove that believers would go to heaven. V17 says; "Then we ...Shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Which part of this verse does it say that the redeemed would go to heaven?


The Lord is descending and the redeemed are caught up, we meet him in the air among the clouds. Is this going back to heaven? No. This is the meeting place. The text says "and so shall we ever be with the Lord". Where ever the Lord goes after we meet him in the air, we would go with him; whether back to heaven, down on the earth (ground) or staying among the clouds. But where would he go? We must find out from the scriptures, this verse does not say.

 

[ELECT]

John 14:1-3


"Let not your heart be troubled: Ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my father's house are many mansions: if it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you I will come again and receive you unto myself: that where I am, there you may be also".


This is another text used by the "heaven bound" to justify their claim. Again, let us examine this statement, and make it plain. Jesus exhorted his disciples to believe in him as they believed in God. He said there are many mansions in his father's house, and if that were not a fact, he would have told them. So what he told them was in fact true. The mansions are there- already existing. Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place for you". How would he do this, and what is he doing now? Let the bible speak. In Acts 7:56 we read, "And said, behold, I see the heavens opened and the son of man standing on the right hand of God" . Heb 8:1-2. "Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest who is set on the right hand of the throne of the majesty in the heavens"; Heb 9:11-12 "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place having obtained, eternal redemption for us". Verse 24 says "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us".


Verse 15 says "and for this cause he is the mediator of the New Testament". In Col. 3:1 we read "If ye then be risen with Christ seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God". Again in 1 Jn 2:1 we read "My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" ... See also Rom.8:34.


All these scriptures and more tell what Jesus is doing, and how he is preparing a place for us. He is our High Priest, Mediator, Advocate and Intercessor. Pleading our case; forgiving our sins, standing in the breach for us in the presence of the Almighty God, at his right hand. Jesus said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also". One day Jesus will leave the right hand of God and come back to earth. "I will come again....that where I am there ye may be also". When he comes, wherever he will be, there will we be also.


Now some read these verses and then ask; where is Jesus now? When you answer he is in heaven now, the response is well! There is where we will be, because he said that where I am, there ye may be also. This reasoning is worth a query. The question should rather be; where will Jesus be when he comes again? The answer to this question is what we are searching for to find out whether heaven was promised to men or not.

 

[john832]

Balderdash! In 1 Cor 5:3 he is not absent from the body; he is absent from Corinth. He says he is present in Corinth "in the spirit."


3 For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing, 4 in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,

There is nothing about death here at all. I does raise questions about existence by the spirit in a place where one's body is not. There is nothing about his spirit being dormant in Corinth. This would be against any doctrine of "soul sleep."

Yep, the whole concept. You used that phrase to try to say that "absent from the body..." means that we go to heaven, in reality it is colloquialism that was used by Paul in his day.

 

[Butch5]

First of all, who is this Christ to which you refer? Paul expected to be with YHWH, God the Son, the 2nd person of the trinity; God who became a man with flesh & blood, who died on the cross to pay for our sins, was buried & raised from the dead.

Is that the Christ to which you refer? Don't duck the question, Butch.

Seriously? I’m referring to Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

[/COLOR]
That's what you say.
This is what God's Word says:

1 Cor 6:
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit."


1 Cor 5:
For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. 2 For verily in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven: 3 if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For indeed we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened; not for that we would be unclothed, but that we would be clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that wrought us for this very thing is God, who gave unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord 7 (for we walk by faith, not by sight); 8 we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord. 9 Wherefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well-pleasing unto him. 10 For we must all be made manifest before the judgment-seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

This is begging the question, the claim is presumed in the premise. Your premise is that Paul expected to be conscious with Christ after his death but before the resurrection. I reject that premise, thus the onus is on you to prove it from the Scriptures.

So

also the woman that is unmarried and the virgin is careful for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit:

There’s difference between having a spirit and being one.

Let's see the proof of that one.
But it is irrelevant, as Paul the prophet got his teaching from God. The Pharisees followed human tradition, negating scripture & were taken to task for this by the Lord Jesus.

It’s not irrelevant at all. Moses also got his teaching from God. God gave him the Law, Paul was a student of the Law. There’s nothing in the OT about man being a spirit.

[/COLOR]
Have you read the OT? The Bible, OT & NT are absolutely clear that man has a body & a spirit. Man is dust, a being characterized by dust, but not just dust.

Zech:
Thus saith Jehovah, who stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him:


Mal:
15 And did he not make one, although he had the residue of the Spirit? And wherefore one? He sought a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. 16 For I hate putting away, saith Jehovah, the God of Israel, and him that covereth his garment with violence, saith Jehovah of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.

cf. Job 32:8

there is a spirit in man,
And the breath of the Almighty giveth them understanding.


But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him; for Jehovah thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as at this day.


I will speak in the anguish of my spirit;

Ps 31 Into thy hand I commend my spirit:


Blessed is the man unto whom Jehovah imputeth not iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no guile.-
Jehovah is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart,
And saveth such as are of a contrite spirit.


I commune with mine own heart;
And my spirit maketh diligent search.
7 Will the Lord cast off for ever?


9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee earnestly:


5 Thus saith God Jehovah, he that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; he that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:


15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite. 16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth; for the spirit would faint before me, and the souls that I have made.


41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.


50 And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit.


1 For who among men knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of the man, which is in him? even so the things of God none knoweth, save the Spirit of God.


7:1 Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

James 2 "the body apart from the spirit is dead,"

As I said, there is a difference between having a spirit and being one. Yes, there is a spirit in man, we see that Gen 2:7, it is God’s breath or spirit. As I said, Ruwach and Neshanah mean literally, breath, and metaphorically, spirit. Scritpure says that God breath/spirit is in all flesh, so yes man has a spirit in him. However, that doesn’t mean man “IS” a spirit, he’s “NOT”, he’s dust as the Scriptures clearly state.

See if you can find Scripture that says man “IS” a spirit. You won’t find any.

 

[Butch5]

Question is, What do you go with Butch? Certainly not Scripture.
I go with scripture & YHWH the Son, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, the Lord Jesus; God Who became a man with flesh & blood; who died for my sins & rose from the dead having a body of flesh & bone.

This is another fallcay

 

[Butch5]

Thomist posted a proof text that physically dead saints from the OT were alive currently.

Explain Christ's comment that God is, "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Jesus stressed the present tense. He then continues that "God is a God of the living, not of the dead." So, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were still alive at the time of Christ, even though they had suffered a fleshly death.



It must be noted that the Lord Jesus referred to present time, which is before the resurrection. His argument destroys the contention that death ends it all, which appears to be the Sadducean POV, from which they operated in opposition to the resurrection. So He addresses both issues. The present tense argument implies they are currently alive. But as their bodies were dead, they had to have spiritual existence.

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Mat 22:29-32 KJV)

Thus they have not perished making a resurrection impossible; they are currently alive.

Let me make sure I’m understanding you properly. Are you saying that Jesus’ argument refutes the Old Testament?
Your argument is flawed, Jesus clearly says, as touching the resurrection of the dead. He acknowledges right up front that they are dead. The definite article place before living and dead, “The Living” and “The Dead” shows that participle is being used as a noun. This refers to groups of people collectively. The time element of Greek participles is only relative when in the indicative mood, “zao” is not. So, the passage is not saying they are alive at that moment, it’s talking about two different groups of people, the Living and the Dead.

As a matter of fact he states that the dead are not dead, but living. For though there was no debate that their bodies were dead, their spirits were alive, and death had not ended it all. He doesn't say "will have" (future) but now, present tense. God is the God of the living; thus they were alive right then, though physically speaking dead. The context concerns life after death & resurrection, not spiritual death or the Lake of Fire.

This assumes Dualism which is not taught in the Scriptures. The passage doesn’t say, as touching the resurrection of the dead bodies, it says, ‘as touching the resurrection of the dead.
Your argument also doesn’t follow because Jesus speaks of two classes of people, the living and the dead. He contrasts one against the other, if the dead were just bodies and the living were their spirits, as you suggest, then the living and the dead, would be the same group of people, not two different groups. Since the groups oppose one another they essentially the same, so if the dead are just dead bodies, then the living have to be living bodies. Likewise, if you claim the living are spirits then you have to say the dead are spirits.

The perspective is truth. The refutation is of the idea that death ends it all. Abraham is asserted to be currently alive, as also in the Parable in Luke of the rich man & Lazarus.

Notice Jesus words,


All indeed have life at that time in history to God, not to men, for men go by what they experience on earth; namely persons who used to live are in graves. But God is aware of all men, some in Hades, others in Paradise.
The two parts of the verse do not contradict:
1) He is the God of the living (thus Abraham lives presently);
and 2) all men are either in Hades or Paradise.

There is a death from man's POV & from God's.
The passage addresses both the present tense & the resurrection to come, assuring that there is life after death.

As I said, your argument about the present tense is moot, the participle isn’t saying that. Jesus clearly says this is about the resurrection of the dead, not the resurrection of dead bodies, or of living spirits or anything like that, He says “the dead”.
Your appeal to Lazarus and the rich man does not address the issue as the parable has nothing to do with life after death, it’s about the priesthood being taken from the Jews.
Jesus applies the statement to the resurrection not to their present state. Regarding their present state He admits they are dead.

 

[Butch5]

He says He is going away & that was to Heaven as we know, not a trip to Herod's temple. The context cannot refer to Herod's temple. The word for Father's House is (so far as I know) unique in scripture here, oikia, not oikos. But the earthly temple is the oikos of God, not the oikia in scripture.

Are you a Greek scholar or a Lexicon to claim what the words mean? The two words are different. The suffix -ia is a famous abstract noun suffix.

As I said, they both mean the same thing. It seems you’re trying to create difference to support a doctrine. Oikia stems from Oikos and both mean house.

He addresses disciples & my little children, which includes all Christians. You cannot limit it as the text does not. The idea that there would be a Coming Again just for a few apostles is nonsense. The context defines the "you." It is obvious that Christ's return became a blessed hope for all believers, which James 5 indicates they should take note of.

It’s a matter of reasoning. That Jesus is returning for all believers doesn’t have any effect on His statement to the disciples. They were there with Him and He said you. That means He was talking to them, He didn’t say anything about anyone else. It’s illogical to read a return for all back into a statement that was made to a group of men.

Obviously that applies to persons who have established parties -- it doesn't address disciples or "my little children" in general.

It’s no different than Jesus addressing the twelve. We can’t pick and choose what applies we have to follow the rules of language.

So that where He is [Heaven], they can be. That where I am, there you may be also.

He said He would return the they could be with Him. Again, He had just told them they can’t go.

If you want an allegory, you note that right after he is told to look at the New Jerusalem (from Heaven) what he is shown is the Church!

I’m not sure what that has to do with him seeing the New Jerusalem.

He says that in My Father's oikia are many dwelling places. As it is not the Temple of Herod, nothing else fits aside from in Heaven, the place where God lives.

Look at the passage, He didn’t say He was going to His Father’s house, He said He was going to prepare a place for them.

But the Bible gives a time-line which rules out the New Jerusalem being brought to earth at Christ's return in Rev 19. A millennium ensues next.

As I said, I wasn’t giving a timeline but rather a sequence of events.

 

[mpaper345]

Jesus said that He went to prepare a place for us that where He dwells the saints may also be there.

Jesus left the earth to prepare this place so the saints will not dwell on earth forever.

God said that the old earth and the old heaven will not be remembered and He will create a new heaven and a new earth.

Since the earth and heaven has been tainted with sin they will have to be done away with and there will be a new earth and heaven where sin has never been and sin will never be there.

 

[ELECT]

Jesus said that He went to prepare a place for us that where He dwells the saints may also be there.

Jesus left the earth to prepare this place so the saints will not dwell on earth forever.

God said that the old earth and the old heaven will not be remembered and He will create a new heaven and a new earth.

Since the earth and heaven has been tainted with sin they will have to be done away with and there will be a new earth and heaven where sin has never been and sin will never be there.

Which heavens are being referred to here ?

 

[ELECT]

Job, raised the question of life after death. Notice how he answered it: "O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time [the time of the resurrection], and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee . . ." (Job:14:13-15




, King James Version

 

[ELECT]

Hi ThomistColin,

That is the typical understanding of the passage, however, upon closer look I think we can draw a different conclusion. The first thing to note is that Jesus applied this passage to the resurrection, not to the current state of those men.

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Mat 22:29-32 KJV)

25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
(Mar 12:25-27 KJV)


In the very passage Jesus acknowledges that they are dead. Also notice that the living and the dead are each a class of people. God is the God of the believers, they will have eternal life (the living), He is not the God of those who reject Him who will be cast into the fire (the dead).

However, we have to keep in mind that his is all from God's perspective, not ours. Notice Jesus words,

36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (Luk 20:36-38 KJV)

Jesus tells us this is from God's perspective as Luke records, "for all life unto Him."



All of these passages apply the statement to the resurrection of the dead, not the current state of these men. They also acknowledge that they are dead now when they refer to the resurrection of the dead.

the Bible describe our experience after death not as going to heaven or hell, but simply as sleep. Notice, for example, how Daniel refers to the state of the dead in this prophecy of the resurrection: "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel:12:2). When an individual is in a deep sleep, he has absolutely no conscious awareness of the passing of time nor any knowledge of events that are occurring while he is asleep.
Paul repeatedly compared death to sleep (1 Corinthians:11:30; 15:6, 18, 20, 51; 1 Thessalonians:4:13-15). Peter similarly writes of the patriarchs who "fell asleep" in death (2 Peter:3:4).

 

[Butch5]

the Bible describe our experience after death not as going to heaven or hell, but simply as sleep. Notice, for example, how Daniel refers to the state of the dead in this prophecy of the resurrection: "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel:12:2). When an individual is in a deep sleep, he has absolutely no conscious awareness of the passing of time nor any knowledge of events that are occurring while he is asleep.
Paul repeatedly compared death to sleep (1 Corinthians:11:30; 15:6, 18, 20, 51; 1 Thessalonians:4:13-15). Peter similarly writes of the patriarchs who "fell asleep" in death (2 Peter:3:4).

Yes, I believe that is because that is how we should view death. All who die will one day be raised again so it is similar to sleep, however, the Scriptures do say that man returns to dust.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus said that He went to prepare a place for us that where He dwells the saints may also be there.

Jesus left the earth to prepare this place so the saints will not dwell on earth forever.

God said that the old earth and the old heaven will not be remembered and He will create a new heaven and a new earth.

Since the earth and heaven has been tainted with sin they will have to be done away with and there will be a new earth and heaven where sin has never been and sin will never be there.

God said He was going to make all things new. The present heavens and earth will be made new and the earth will be the destiny of the saved.

Also Jesus didn't say anyone was going with Him, He said He was coming back so they could be where He was.

 

[ELECT]

Yes, I believe that is because that is how we should view death. All who die will one day be raised again so it is similar to sleep, however, the Scriptures do say that man returns to dust.

Do animal have a spirit ?
Do angels have a spirit ?

 

[ELECT]

"the first resurrection" in Revelation:20:5. those in this resurrection came to life and "reigned with Christ for a thousand years" (verse 4), during the period commonly known as the Millennium. Notice that they do not go to dwell in heaven—they live and reign with Jesus on earth, to which He has returned to establish God's Kingdom!
Verse 6 goes on to explain: "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power [because they will then be the resurrected, immortal children of God], but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." Revelation:5:10 confirms that they will be "a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth" (NIV).

 

[Butch5]

Do animal have a spirit ?
Do angels have a spirit ?

Hi Elect,

The word translated spirit literally means breath. There are two Hebrew words that mean spirit one is Neshamah and the other is Ruach. The both mean breath or spirit and are used interchangeably. The only difference I'm aware of is I believe Neshamah is only used of God and humans, whereas Ruach is used of God, humans, and animals. My contention is that this spirit that is in man is not "the man" but rather it is what animates him. To answer your question do animals have a breath/spirit, the Scriptures say that if God was to retrieve His breath/spirit all flesh would die. This indicates that God's breath/spirit is in all flesh, including animals. Regarding angels, the word means messenger and could be either human or a being from Heaven. I think you're referring to the heavenly ones, correct? Honestly, I can't answer that, however, they are called, spirits. That would literally be breaths.