The Law Debacle Resolved

[Utah]

Shhh! They cannot hear you anway.

Nice snarky little comment from one who claims he doesn't judge anyone. If you didn't judge anyone you wouldn't make snarky little comments in an insulting manner towards those who view Scripture differently than you.

 

[Utah]

LOL You're not a Baptist. Budweiser makes Bud wiser. LOL

I'm Christian; saved by faith. Nothing more; nothing less.

 

[JaumeJ]

This is only in reference to the same people who continuously ignore all of what we have said dozens of times. I am sorry if you feel it may directed at people other than those mentioned. It is quite similar, though in my own words, of what has been said and taught in the Word. Do not cas pearls before the swine is even worse sounding than what I posted, and it was taught by Jesus Christ. I did not call anyone swine. It is written those who are def, dumb and blind cannot understand, and more..pardon if I paraphrase with understanding, but this is a freedom afforded all who share truth

Nice snarky little comment from one who claims he doesn't judge anyone. If you didn't judge anyone you wouldn't make snarky little comments in an insulting manner towards those who view Scripture differently than you.

 

[Utah]

No one of those here believing that we are converted into children of obedience believes anything other. Where are you getting these ideas about us, all of us? There is no salvation without having had the Father lead us, each one, to Jesus Christ, and this only happens after having received the gift of faith. Faith leads to grace, or as Paul writes, fiath accesses grace.

Just as in the parable of the talents, when we receive the gift of faith, we must shine, one way or another. We cannot sit around saying, Hello I am saved, and that is it. Faith without works is dead.

Now Kenneth has maintained that we abey the law according to the teachings and example of Jesus Christ. We are told to follw the example of Jesus- He has asked us to learn of Him, and that is an amazing and great invitation.

People who do not learn of Jesus Christ will always struggle with being obedient, obeying God, and understanding the great light hined on the Law by Jesus Christ. How can they when they thing grace, accessed by faith, is the only thing God expects of us.

If faith leads to good works, and it accesses grace,, some good works will be in the interim. I can say this, faith will not lead to disobedience.

Frankly, I sometimes, but not of all, believe many of these grace only folks believe exactly as do I, but they are so caught up in the fear of the law without Jesus Christ, that they have made themselves impervious to understanding.

God bless all in Jesus Crist, and other soo, ame.

I'm a hospice chaplain; I serve God by tending to the needs of terminally ill people. I bring comfort, friendship and prayer to those under my care, and I do it all in the name of Jesus Christ. Through it all, I live in poverty because being a hospice chaplain doesn't bring monetary wealth. Does my life of servitude grant me salvation or maintain my salvation? No, it doesn't. My faith in Jesus does, period.

 

[Utah]

I hope you do not think I refer to evil works?

Why in the world would you think this? Get a grip, brother.

 

[Shoshanah]

Really good study Shoshanna!

I saw the account that you shared about Lazarus in a whole new light. Isn't that what fellowship of believers should accomplish?

Paul and Apollos operated where the division between flesh and spirit took place, and even the works that they did, (and they were works,) came in along those same lines. With Christ being the head who gives the seed of the word, and the water of the word, and causes the increase.

Rightly dividing has nothing to do with ignoring anything that God ever said. And every example preserved in HIS word is and will always be living.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

That is correct. God made the seed, the water, and even the stone. We can take absolutely no credit for those things God has created through Christ Jesus, but He wants us to use those things, not for us to be looking for a blessing, but because we esteem His immense grace continuously given to us. The indwelling Spirit gives us this motivation.

On the other hand, if we resists using these things given, we evolve into this."Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts."

When the stone is rolled away, then we are circumcised in our heart by this profound grace that only God can give,

"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:"

 

[Utah]

This is only in reference to the same people who continuously ignore all of what we have said dozens of times. I am sorry if you feel it may directed at people other than those mentioned. It is quite similar, though in my own words, of what has been said and taught in the Word. Do not cas pearls before the swine is even worse sounding than what I posted, and it was taught by Jesus Christ. I did not call anyone swine. It is written those who are def, dumb and blind cannot understand, and more..pardon if I paraphrase with understanding, but this is a freedom afforded all who share truth

So then you do judge. Okay, just wanted to be clear on that.

 

[Shoshanah]

We will never be on the same page unless you repent of believing a works-based doctrine and put your faith in Christ alone.

I need to stop working for God?

 

[Utah]

I feel like I just gave birth.

 

[Kefa54]

If I get up and decide I am going to witness to ten people today, it sounds noble.

If I getup and pray and ask God to use me today. Then I get the direction to go witness to people, and the Spirit gives me the strength, wisdom and opportunity to witness to 50 people ?????


Kefa

1 Corinthians 3:5-9
5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

John 11:38-44
38 So Jesus, again being deeply moved within, came to the tomb. Now it was a cave, and a stone was lying against it.
39 Jesus said, “Remove the stone.” Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there will be a stench, for he has been dead four days.”
40 Jesus *said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
41 So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me.
42 I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the people standing around I said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me.”
43 When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.”
44 The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”

In these 2 instances first Paul is saying that even though God gives the seed and the water, He causes things to grow. Just because Paul planted, and Apollos watered, was this actually works of self-righteousnesses? On the other had, if Paul had not planted, and if Apollos had not watered, then there would be no increase. This is a simple precept to comprehend. The reason Paul and Apollos did this was because they wanted the world to glorify God's handiwork, and teach them how God causes all thing to happen by Him. Paul knew every believer must equate God's grace with works of righteousness. This doesn't make the believer self-righteous by his or her own works in Christ.

Notice now John 11:39 with verse 44. Jesus didn't do those things but commanded them to be done. He was asking the people in the near proximity to take the barrier away between Himself and the dead man Lazarus. Then Jesus did the work of raising Lazarus from the dead. Would Jesus have done this if they refused to roll the stone away from the tomb because they classified it as self works? I think not. Then afterwards Jesus commands them to set Lazarus free. If that had not been done Lazarus would have died again.

Point being: Stop the false accusations against people that respond to God's commandments because of their faith just because their faith causes them to react according to God's everlasting grace! What I have read in this thread by those who accuse people that that practice in righteousness living is very sickening to this newcomer!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Telling any brother he is not in grace when he has witnessed consistently he is because of his faith is not what most would describe as love, it is a judgment, and from having read Ken's posts it is a very wrong one. Remember with the judgment you mete out you will be judged. I do not judge you, but I am able to say rightly that you are wrong in disparaging the name of a brother in Christ.

Yet all those people you claim lost salvation for whatever reason. Are under grace.

So your are the ones telling people they are under grace or not. Why do you judge someone else for doing that?

As for a person trying to earn grace The bible says they are not under grace, Not myself or anyone else. We do not have that right.

 

[Shoshanah]

I'm a hospice chaplain; I serve God by tending to the needs of terminally ill people. I bring comfort, friendship and prayer to those under my care, and I do it all in the name of Jesus Christ. Through it all, I live in poverty because being a hospice chaplain doesn't bring monetary wealth. Does my life of servitude grant me salvation or maintain my salvation? No, it doesn't. My faith in Jesus does, period.

I can certainly agree. AMEN! your works are not your own, they are the works of God Almighty. Thank you for your service!

 

[Brother_Don]

Light in the darkness, the way is clear. Got to rightfully exist, so check your list. First things first, Love God's righteousness, Love God now. Nothing can change what God ordains. Let it be known, He's placed His Throne within the hearts of his people, heirs to the Kingdom. Your an open book so take a good look. Let it be known Christ has shown mighty deeds.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe most of the folks here who need to hear your words below already know these principles but they, for their own reasons, choose to ignore them. Keep up the good and holy struggle; we know it is worth it. God says so.

it is kind of hard to listen to a guy who teaches we must do all these wonderful works to be saved, (and they are not done as a result of salvation, He is hardly someone that is qualified to teach on grace.

sorry JJ, But you have to consider the source.

 

[Shoshanah]

If I get up and decide I am going to witness to ten people today, it sounds noble.

If I getup and pray and ask God to use me today and the Spirit gives me the strength, wisdom and opportunity to witness to 50 people ?????


Kefa

That's the right way to approach it. Follow the true leader! Amen!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Kenneth and I and all who believe in obeying Jesus Christ are doing nothing more than attempting to gain interest on the faith given us by God. Of course we are guilty of doing good works because we are grateful. Faith without works is dead, or better put buried in the ground.

No. Your guilty of trying to earn your salvation.

Myself and others like me would also be guilty of doing good works if that was the case.

The difference between your good works and my good works are simple. I do them out of FAITH in Christ, and NEVER expect anythingin return (even salvation) knowing that my father loves me no matter what.

You do them as a means to gain salvation, or not lose it (which is another way of saying to gain salvation)


A grace based salvation can never be lost. A works based salvation can always be lost. that is what separates the two. You can not earn grace (or lose it, otherwise you must earn it) you can lose a wage (something that is earned or worked for)

 

[Shoshanah]

it is kind of hard to listen to a guy who teaches we must do all these wonderful works to be saved, (and they are not done as a result of salvation, He is hardly someone that is qualified to teach on grace.

sorry JJ, But you have to consider the source.

Our own efforts never last. This is true. I really don't see anyone in the thread saying we are saved by our own merits though.

 

[Least]

Light in the darkness, the way is clear. Got to rightfully exist, so check your list. First things first, Love God's righteousness, Love God now. Nothing can change what God ordains. Let it be known, He's placed His Throne within the hearts of his people, heirs to the Kingdom. Your an open book so take a good look. Let it be known Christ has shown mighty deeds.

Amen Bro Don

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Division from death to life and from darkness to light.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

So NT grace must be the same personage as the OT God? Then the law of sin death is not God's law, making God's law a law of Grace. Right? The law of sin and death is man's law and not of grace. Is this right?

The law of sin and death is this.

Gal 3: [SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Since only one person ever fulfilled this command (Christ) all people are under a curse.

WHo because the curse for us? Jesus did He fulfilled the law in us, We have failed, are failing, and will continue to fail to obey the law by this guildine (given by moses in the OT)

Deuteronomy 27:[SUP] 26 [/SUP]‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

since NO ONE can obey this law. it is the law of sin (it exposes sin) and death (it curses everyone to death who does not obey every word)

 

[PeterJens]

it is kind of hard to listen to a guy who teaches we must do all these wonderful works to be saved, (and they are not done as a result of salvation, He is hardly someone that is qualified to teach on grace.
sorry JJ, But you have to consider the source.

I have a simple question eg - I looked back at a thread 6 months ago, and you again where combating ideas which you do not like, with people who did not hold them. It strikes me you are punching at ghosts from your past that have upset you and are not resolved.

I got upset with someone, and suddenly everything they said had a slant, even when not present, because I knew what they were hiding, rather than I was hurt, and I suspected everything they wrote. When this happens to anyone, it puts things right off-beam. You appear to be doing this with JJ.

Trouble is you are not then putting things right, you are just punching air.

I have seen no evidence anyone here is a legalist as you suppose. Why do you continue to say they are? It is not as if people are not willing to engage or not take real evidence. Each one can present as they feel led.