The law of Moses

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Sep 6, 2014
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#21
Yes, I am looking at exodus 21 as privately and carnal as I have a daughter and I will not consider to sell her as a slave.

Do not attack me I did not wrote exodus 21, you address the issues in this verse and stop going round and round trying to deviate .

Thanks for proving my point. Enjoy stewing in your ignorance and hatred of God :)
 
Mar 23, 2014
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#22
Thanks for proving my point. Enjoy stewing in your ignorance and hatred of God :)
You have a good point, but have not addressed the issue. you just ignoring the verses I have put in front of you. and accusing me to Hate God, I do not Hate God, I just do not believe He ordered to write those verses. because he is all wisdom, love and care. do not tell me God has to evolve together with the human legislation to have a more advanced idea of human rights.
 
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Jan 25, 2015
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#23
Yes, I am looking at exodus 21 as privately and carnal as I have a daughter and I will not consider to sell her as a slave.

Do not attack me I did not wrote exodus 21, you address the issues in this verse and stop going round and round trying to deviate .
From sacred-texts.com

If a man sell his daughter - This the Jews allowed no man to do but in extreme distress - when he had no goods, either movable or immovable left, even to the clothes on his back; and he had this permission only while she was unmarriageable. It may appear at first view strange that such a law should have been given; but let it be remembered, that this servitude could extend, at the utmost, only to six years; and that it was nearly the same as in some cases of apprenticeship among us, where the parents bind the child for seven years, and have from the master so much per week during that period.
 
Mar 23, 2014
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#24
From sacred-texts.com

If a man sell his daughter - This the Jews allowed no man to do but in extreme distress - when he had no goods, either movable or immovable left, even to the clothes on his back; and he had this permission only while she was unmarriageable. It may appear at first view strange that such a law should have been given; but let it be remembered, that this servitude could extend, at the utmost, only to six years; and that it was nearly the same as in some cases of apprenticeship among us, where the parents bind the child for seven years, and have from the master so much per week during that period.
Thanks lots for the try. but the article is completely wrong, the verse say contrary to the article that she can not get freedom like men after 6 years, the rest is just a way to soften the terrible reality.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#25
Thanks lots for the try. but the article is completely wrong, the verse say contrary to the article that she can not get freedom like men after 6 years, the rest is just a way to soften the terrible reality.
If you look at the Hebrew the word can also mean that the daughter might not be taken away from her parents... thus the master cannot move with the maidservant.
 
Mar 23, 2014
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#26
(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

Giving more though to this commandment, it is actually not only out of character, but also extemporaneous, not concordant in the time. why?

The Israelites just came out of Egypt, they are en the desert, they were slaves themselves, so they have to hate slavery, they also been feed by God itself so extreme poverty does not exists, they are in a 40 years Journey towards the promised land, there is no land ownership or trade, they are moving like nomads, where in this circumstances this commandment makes sense? I am completely out of any possible rational explanation.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#27
The word go out is

yaw-tsaw'A primitive root; to go (causatively bring) out, in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively, direct and proximate: - X after, appear, X assuredly, bear out, X begotten, break out, bring forth (out, up), carry out, come (abroad, out, thereat, without), + be condemned, depart (-ing, -ure), draw forth, in the end, escape, exact, fail, fall (out), fetch forth (out), get away (forth, hence, out), (able to, cause to, let) go abroad (forth, on, out), going out, grow, have forth (out), issue out, lay (lie) out, lead out, pluck out, proceed, pull out, put away, be risen, X scarce, send with commandment, shoot forth, spread, spring out, stand out, X still, X surely, take forth (out), at any time, X to [and fro], utter.

Believe what you want to believe...
 

JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
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#28
atwhatcost said:
In the case you brought up, the man isn't necessarily leaving her all alone to cry for her parents, he's treating her like a guest in his house. She knows where it's going, so she has a month to prepare herself for the inevitable. Maybe not thrilled at the marriage, but by that time it's also not likely rape anymore.
I don't know that this is a good explanation. Do we force guests into our houses? Do we force them to stay? Do we force guests to marry us and do the things marriage entails? In the end, the marriage is forced on the woman, which, if it happened against her consent and wishes, would seem to be rape. I don't think killing someone's family, forcing the woman to marry you, then telling her, "you have a month to consent to it" could rationally be considered a "consensual."

I think Ivan's concern boils down to the use of force and the intrinsic value of a human life. It seems the woman is being treated as personal property, not as someone who owns their own life. The man's use of violence on the woman is sanctioned by that law.

crossnote said:
Here is a quote from the MacArthur Study Bible via Olivetree. You can easily find answers to this and your other example by doing a little research.

Deu 21:11 Deut. 21:11–14 a beautiful woman. According to ancient war customs, a female captive became the servant of the victors. Moses was given instruction to deal in a kind way with such issues. In the event her conquerors were captivated by her beauty and contemplated marriage with her, one month was required to elapse, during which her troubled feelings might settle, her mind would be reconciled to the new conditions of conquest, and she could sorrow over the loss of her parents as she left home to marry a stranger. One month was the usual mourning period for Jews, and the features of this period, e. g., shaving the head, trimming the nails, and removing her lovely clothes (ladies on the eve of captivity dressed to be attractive to their captors), were typical signs of Jewish grief. This action was important to show kindness to the woman and to test the strength of the man's affection. After the 30 days, they could marry. If later he decided divorce was appropriate (based on the provisions of 24:1–4), he could not sell her as a slave. She was to be set completely free because "you have humiliated her." This phrase clearly refers to sexual activity, in which the wife has fully submitted herself to her husband (cf. 22:23–29). It should be noted that divorce appears to have been common among the people, perhaps learned from their time in Egypt, and tolerated by Moses because of their "hardness of heart" (see notes on Deut. 24:1–4; Matt. 19:8).
(1) Just because something was an ancient war custom doesn't make it morally acceptable. The fact of this being an ancient war custom does not excuse it. All it does is help us understand that Israel conducted warfare just like everyone else.

(2) The MacArthur note here sill is not able to avoid that this is a marriage brought on by force and use of violence. The woman really has no say in the matter, nor does her family. She is treated as someone else's property, not as having intrinsic value and ownership of herself. No, the man has killed her family and taken her by force. It's not morally acceptable just because he gave her a month to come to terms with it. Come to terms with what? Her forced captivity and marriage to her family's killer? I suppose we could label him a "stranger," as MacArthur does, but we know that this particular "stranger" has killed her family and taken her as his own property.

(3) Maybe we could say, as the MacArthur note does, that this is just a law dealing with the facts of reality. War was war and the Israelites would do what everyone else was doing. Rather than try to eradicate the practices, which would likely prove futile, it's better to regulate it and maybe be a little more humane than was typical. Maybe...but I don't think we should label this as "kind" as MacArthur does. It's still violence and force used on the woman and her family. It's not kind by any normal understanding of "kind." Perhaps it's not as bad as what "the _____ tribe" over there was doing, but that only places it in terms of relative behavior, not moral acceptance, unless we're some sort of moral relativists. We are still unable to avoid the moral question - it appears by all rational means that this law was immoral (to say the least).
 
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Mar 23, 2014
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#29
I don't know that this is a good explanation. Do we force guests into our houses? Do we force them to stay? Do we force guests to marry us and do the things marriage entails? In the end, the marriage is forced on the woman, which, if it happened against her consent and wishes, would seem to be rape. I don't think killing someone's family, forcing the woman to marry you, then telling her, "you have a month to consent to it" could rationally be considered a "consensual."

I think Ivan's concern boils down to the use of force and the intrinsic value of a human life. It seems the woman is being treated as personal property, not as someone who owns their own life. The man's use of violence on the woman is sanctioned by that law.



(1) Just because something was an ancient war custom doesn't make it morally acceptable. The fact of this being an ancient war custom does not excuse it. All it does is help us understand that Israel conducted warfare just like everyone else.

(2) The MacArthur note here sill is not able to avoid that this is a marriage brought on by force and use of violence. The woman really has no say in the matter, nor does her family. She is treated as someone else's property, not as having intrinsic value and ownership of herself. No, the man has killed her family and taken her by force. It's not morally acceptable just because he gave her a month to come to terms with it. Come to terms with what? Her forced captivity and marriage to her family's killer? I suppose we could label him a "stranger," as MacArthur does, but we know that this particular "stranger" has killed her family and taken her as his own property.

(3) Maybe we could say, as the MacArthur note does, that this is just a law dealing with the facts of reality. War was war and the Israelites would do what everyone else was doing. Rather than try to eradicate the practices, which would likely prove futile, it's better to regulate it and maybe be a little more humane than was typical. Maybe...but I don't think we should label this as "kind" as MacArthur does. It's still violence and force used on the woman and her family. It's not kind by any normal understanding of "kind." Perhaps it's not as bad as what "the _____ tribe" over there was doing, but that only places it in terms of relative behavior, not moral acceptance, unless we're some sort of moral relativists. We are still unable to avoid the moral question - it appears by all rational means that this law was immoral (to say the least).
Correct God cannot give immoral laws!
 
Mar 23, 2014
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#30
Deuteronomy 21 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands and thou hast taken them captive,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]and seest among the captives a beautiful woman and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her for thy wife,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]then thou shalt bring her home to thine house. And she shall shave her head and pare her nails;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]and she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house and bewail her father and her mother a full month. And after that thou shalt go in unto her and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will, but thou shalt not sell her at all for money; thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.



What is this????

You Kidnap the poor virgen, you with compasion make her cry for family, then you rape her, and force to be your wife, but if you have no enough pleasure on her, let her go.... it is just ok.... I think I read some thing similar in a Muslim book


(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.


What????
A man could sell his daughter? and He has to please the men? cook well? or please the men in the bed?
but a man can not sell the poor girl to aliens just to Israelites, is this a sex slave Moses law?
With laws like this is clear Jesus has to declare Moses law null.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#31
With laws like this is clear Jesus has to declare Moses law null.
This is your understanding of the law and your opinion.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
 
Mar 23, 2014
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#35
Because you don't understand the Bible. Simple as that.
This is Great! I found some one who understand the bible!, could you please explain the verses in post 1.

Please take into account that for selling daughers as sex slaves, they are en the desert, are been feed by God so there is no possibility of extreme poverty.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#36
This is Great! I found some one who understand the bible!, could you please explain the verses in post 1.

Please take into account that for selling daughers as sex slaves, they are en the desert, are been feed by God so there is no possibility of extreme poverty.
I have explained it to you before but you don't want to listen.
 
Mar 23, 2014
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#37
When we look at scriptures like these we have to understand the moral issues of the time. Three things to consider:

1) If you raped a married woman you were killed.

2) The virgin's father still had to give his blessing on the marriage.

3) It was difficult for a lady to get married if she was not a virgin. This woman most likely was treated like an unwanted object so if she had a desire to be married and to have children she had the option to get married to the guy. The problem the guy faced was that he could never leave this woman no matter what. In those days men had the power but when a man raped a woman there was a power shift to her and the roles was basically reversed.
I do not see and explanation here!
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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#38
Why! Why! Why!
The questions above may not be answered, but i know God is love and always has been love. He has not changed. Jesus was at Creation and talked to Abraham and Moses and has been watching on right throughout history. When someone is being hurt by thieves or tortured by evil men Why doesn't Jesus step in. Why, we may not know now, but when we see it the way He does we'll understand, so we'll just need to trust by faith until then. When Abraham was walking up the hill to sacrifice his son the way God commanded, by faith he just obeyed. "Why" would have come into his mind, and Abraham could have justified that "this is not loving", but he obeyed and as a result came closer to God.
Some of the laws we might not understand today in our time but by faith just believe that God was, is, and will always be Love.
Why are these laws there? i don't know, but God will answer all your questions and you will see that He is Love, if you patiently believe.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#39
I do not see and explanation here!
Just like your Bible, you are selective at reading my posts. Sometimes it is easy to understand why people don't understand the whole Bible...