THE LORD GIVES AND GIVES AND GIVES......

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sevenseas

Guest
#41
The buck does not stop here concerning grace.

Hypergrace is only part 1 of the 5 part grace series.

1.Hypergrace.

2.Superhypergrace.

3.Superduperhypergrace.

4.Superdupermegahypergrace.

5.Superdupermegagargantuanhypergrace.

We are saved by grace through faith,so we have to have the proper perspective of faith for grace to apply.

Neglect the poor and needy,faith is lacking.

Hold unto sin,faith is lacking.

For God hates sin,and His kingdom based on love,and to not represent that rightly is to lack faith.

you know, there is no hypergrace at all

there is only the grace of God and that is constant no matter how much people twist it or neglect it

I don't agree with Prince's views here (I don't watch him so I can't say too much but I am sure that he makes excellent points as well, but as a long time student of the word, I pick up on what is false pretty quickly. I don't go on and on about it, but I do shake my head and pray people get straightened out)

I've seen the hyper grace arguments and plenty of false accusations and twisting from those who take a normal post about the grace of God, and turn it into a so called hyper grace post.

God is not impressed or amused with any of it.

however, this wof nonsense that God wants to heal everyone and He will if you just have enough faith is not in the Bible

the very fact that most are not healed should be a wake up call, but it seems some are very heavy sleepers

I've been a Christian since the age of 5 and have had many wake up calls, some from God and some from those who are concerned but I would not have listened had they called me stupid, ignorant, a blasphemer, a heretic or whatever

however, I am person who understands that God has all the final answers but I also understand that if a person is in deception, NOTHING I CAN SAY OR ANYONE CAN OR WILL SAY, is going to help until the person gives it up and goes through the very painful process of restoration to the truth

if a person is in deception, EVERY SINGLE THING IN THE BIBLE CAN HAVE A DIFFERENT MEANING THAN THE ONE INTENDED

I do know what I am talking about but take it or leave...and that goes for everyone
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#42
Hebrews 12

Hebrews 12King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.


let us have grace to serve God indeed.




 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#43
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[TD="class: yiv6614150563mcnTextContent, align: center"]He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
Romans 8:32[/TD]
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[TD="class: yiv6614150563mcnTextContent"]- JULY 19 -
GOD IS A GIVER, NOT A TAKER


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Some Christians mistakenly believe that God gives and also takes away. At funerals, we sometimes hear the minister say, “The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh. Blessed be the name of the Lord.”

I remember an occasion when I was looking at a baby who was suffering from cancer. I heard one of his family members comment, “You can’t be sure what God’s will is. He may or may not heal.” What that person meant was that although the Lord had given the parents this baby, He might later take the baby away from them.

Job displayed this very same attitude when he received the news that he had lost his property and children. Thinking that God was the source of his problems and not knowing that it was actually Satan who had come against him, he said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return there. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.” (Job 1:21) Such a statement seems to honor God, but in reality, it reveals an erroneous view of our heavenly Father.

As children of God, we know what the Father’s will is for us. He is a giver, not a taker! Jesus said, “Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.” (Luke 12:32) It is the devil who is the thief. He comes to steal, kill and destroy. But Jesus came to give us life more abundant. (John 10:10)

Jesus met every need and healed every sickness brought before Him, and at the cross, He gave His own life. Never once did He take anything away from the people who came to Him. And the Bible says that whoever has seen Jesus has seen the Father. (John 14:9)

Beloved, your heavenly Father wants you to know today that He is the one who gives you all good things. And if He has already given us heaven’s best—Jesus, “how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things”?
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Destined To Reign Devotional for 7/19 by Pastor Joseph Prince
god does take away,

he he took away davins son born In Sin

He took away sauls kigdom and handed it to david

he took away Moses chance to enter the promised land

he took away Daniels freedom, and ability to have children

what he also does is take what we deem as bad, and turn it to good,

job Oh did not make a mistake, he understood, yes it was Satan tha destroying took HS family, but a god allowed it, so in a sender, thlord gave him great blessings, and took them away, yet job will worship God anyway,


 
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sevenseas

Guest
#44
I have said many times that I am referring to the non-essentials like healing in the way that some others do believe about healing, end days, tongues and other subjects like that.

We are free to believe on those types of things but not on the deity of Christ. That Jesus was God who came in the flesh and that we are saved by grace through faith in Him when we hear the gospel message of our sins forgiven.

If people feel it is their "Christian right" to malign and slander others in the body of Christ because of a disagreement in the non-essentials - then they can do that too...no one can stop them but the Lord Himself. I will continue to say it is ungodly behavior no matter which side of the fence people are on in these non-essentials.
uh

actually and again, we are not free. how do we instruct in a way that actually makes cognizant sense?

yes, salvation is through Christ and we must believe that in order to be saved. however, believing whatever we want is not actually the gospel or we can all sit around and fabricate whatever we want

never mind, that pretty much goes on here on a daily basis anyway :rolleyes:

does the Bible say we should judge or not? if you can answer that truthfully, then perhaps you might realize the concern some have when they see such glaring errors and God's character being redefined by a person who is getting carried away with personal success (no of course I don't mean you there. I mean Prince)

but take a look at how you responded to Angela (her and I do not see eye to eye on everything for sure but I do think we at least have some respect) you state she does not believe in healing...the equivalent of some saying you continue to sin because you speak so much of the grace of God

I reject wof entirely, however, and because of wof, many miss out on what we should confess and do not realize they can actually create misery by their words (whole other subject and probably useless in this forum unless someone wants to create another fight club)

balance is badly missing and people are hurting

no one has ever said that I have seen in these forums, that God does not heal and that includes Angela and most certainly myself.
 
S

sevenseas

Guest
#45
god does take away,

he he took away davins son born In Sin

He took away sauls kigdom and handed it to david

he took away Moses chance to enter the promised land

he took away Daniels freedom, and ability to have children

what he also does is take what we deem as bad, and turn it to good,

job Oh did not make a mistake, he understood, yes it was Satan tha destroying took HS family, but a god allowed it, so in a sender, thlord gave him great blessings, and took them away, yet job will worship God anyway,



some good points and perhaps more than a little valid

David especially. the man threw himself before God and fasted to the point the servants were afraid for his mental state.

imagine that.

he begged and pleaded with God not to take the life of the child born of his adulterous and murderous affair with Bathsheeba

ever done something sinful and begged God not to let you eat the fruit of the tree you planted? I have. it is painful to the point of wishing you had passed off the earth. or do I just feel more? anyway.....

God said no. the child died and David got up, cleaned himself up and called for food

David accepted the no. that would all be a part of being a person after God's own heart

these are deep, very deep subjects and I refer to many years of Bible study which has helped me to understand as much as I do and to help me understand that I must allow God to be God and have FAITH He loves me and wants the best for me whether or not I understand that

some here get that and some think this is not true and some are struggling with it and some are going to get real hurt before their lives are over because they reject it. you see, it IS the truth and no matter how much we wish we could pull down every blessing and have the best life ever, the best life ever and all the blessings we can pull down, are already ours in Christ

I could go on, but I'm not the preacher here
 
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sevenseas

Guest
#46
gotta spread reps EG but you deserve one here

scripture does not lie
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#47
some good points and perhaps more than a little valid

David especially. the man threw himself before God and fasted to the point the servants were afraid for his mental state.

imagine that.

he begged and pleaded with God not to take the life of the child born of his adulterous and murderous affair with Bathsheeba

ever done something sinful and begged God not to let you eat the fruit of the tree you planted? I have. it is painful to the point of wishing you had passed off the earth. or do I just feel more? anyway.....

God said no. the child died and David got up, cleaned himself up and called for food

David accepted the no. that would all be a part of being a person after God's own heart

these are deep, very deep subjects and I refer to many years of Bible study which has helped me to understand as much as I do and to help me understand that I must allow God to be God and have FAITH He loves me and wants the best for me whether or not I understand that

some here get that and some think this is not true and some are struggling with it and some are going to get real hurt before their lives are over because they reject it. you see, it IS the truth and no matter how much we wish we could pull down every blessing and have the best life ever, the best life ever and all the blessings we can pull down, are already ours in Christ

I could go on, but I'm not the preacher here
thank you yes, this adds to what the said, and helps to bring the point home, I know we can come up with many more of these examples, in real life, and in scripture,
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#48
we have been studying Daniel every time I do I am amazed,

imagine, a young man in the prime of his life with most likely all the wealth he needed to have a good life, good parents who brought him up to live God, the almost assurance of having a beautiful wife and being able to bring a family up to love God,

having all that yanked from him, his parents killed, all his things taken, he was made a Eunic never having to have or ever being able to know a woman, and he was forced to live a life away from the only placed he desired to be,

yet daniel took what God took away, and turned it into a wonderful blessings and one of the most important books in scripture when it comes to prophesy.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,954
8,669
113
#50
you know, there is no hypergrace at all

there is only the grace of God and that is constant no matter how much people twist it or neglect it

I don't agree with Prince's views here (I don't watch him so I can't say too much but I am sure that he makes excellent points as well, but as a long time student of the word, I pick up on what is false pretty quickly. I don't go on and on about it, but I do shake my head and pray people get straightened out)

I've seen the hyper grace arguments and plenty of false accusations and twisting from those who take a normal post about the grace of God, and turn it into a so called hyper grace post.

God is not impressed or amused with any of it.

however, this wof nonsense that God wants to heal everyone and He will if you just have enough faith is not in the Bible

the very fact that most are not healed should be a wake up call, but it seems some are very heavy sleepers

I've been a Christian since the age of 5 and have had many wake up calls, some from God and some from those who are concerned but I would not have listened had they called me stupid, ignorant, a blasphemer, a heretic or whatever

however, I am person who understands that God has all the final answers but I also understand that if a person is in deception, NOTHING I CAN SAY OR ANYONE CAN OR WILL SAY, is going to help until the person gives it up and goes through the very painful process of restoration to the truth

if a person is in deception, EVERY SINGLE THING IN THE BIBLE CAN HAVE A DIFFERENT MEANING THAN THE ONE INTENDED

I do know what I am talking about but take it or leave...and that goes for everyone
I absolutely agree with you sister on this WOF or prosperity stuff and everyone will be healed IF they have enough faith. I don't like it one bit.

Further,NONE of them have been able to answer why THEIR faith isn't strong enough to heal people. And if it is, and they can, why aren't they out there every second healing people!

But there is something else going on here. I get the "we need to identify false doctrine" doctrine. But on some issues, maybe faith healing is one, we have different ideas on what is and what is not Scripturally accurate. And therefore the fairly harsh condemnation heaped on not only the doctrine, but the adherents of that doctrine, I don't think is right, or loving.

For instance, as hurtful and destructive as I believe the faith WOF healing doctrine is, I believe the heretical doctrine, pushed and fought for by MANY here, that we can lose our Salvation, meaning we HAD it at one time, TO MUCH MORE HURTFUL AND DESTRUCTIVE!

And I, and I think you, and many others here, counter that heresy in a fairly loving manner. Obviously some may not, but by and large most do.

So why does what I admit wrong doctrine on THIS issue garner such vitriol, and much of it personal to boot? Why not just give an opinion and Scripture to counter the doctrine and leave it at that?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#51
I absolutely agree with you sister on this WOF or prosperity stuff and everyone will be healed IF they have enough faith. I don't like it one bit.

Further,NONE of them have been able to answer why THEIR faith isn't strong enough to heal people. And if it is, and they can, why aren't they out there every second healing people!

But there is something else going on here. I get the "we need to identify false doctrine" doctrine. But on some issues, maybe faith healing is one, we have different ideas on what is and what is not Scripturally accurate. And therefore the fairly harsh condemnation heaped on not only the doctrine, but the adherents of that doctrine.

For instance, as hurtful and destructive as I believe the faith WOF healing doctrine is, I believe the heretical doctrine, pushed and fought for by MANY here, that we can lose our Salvation, meaning we HAD it at one time, TO MUCH MORE HURTFUL AND DESTRUCTIVE!

And I, and I think you, and many others here, counter that heresy in a fairly loving manner. Obviously some may not, but by and large most do.

So why does what I admit wrong doctrine on THIS issue garner such vitriol, and much of it personal to boot? Why not just give an opinion and Scripture to counter the doctrine and leave it at that?

I sometimes wonder if it if it takes the pressure of them to support their view of salvation, much like the Pharisee who always liked to look down on sinners, in order to take the pressure of the sinful things they were doing but refused to admit
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#52
uh

actually and again, we are not free. how do we instruct in a way that actually makes cognizant sense?

yes, salvation is through Christ and we must believe that in order to be saved. however, believing whatever we want is not actually the gospel or we can all sit around and fabricate whatever we want

never mind, that pretty much goes on here on a daily basis anyway :rolleyes:

does the Bible say we should judge or not? if you can answer that truthfully, then perhaps you might realize the concern some have when they see such glaring errors and God's character being redefined by a person who is getting carried away with personal success (no of course I don't mean you there. I mean Prince)

but take a look at how you responded to Angela (her and I do not see eye to eye on everything for sure but I do think we at least have some respect) you state she does not believe in healing...the equivalent of some saying you continue to sin because you speak so much of the grace of God

I reject wof entirely, however, and because of wof, many miss out on what we should confess and do not realize they can actually create misery by their words (whole other subject and probably useless in this forum unless someone wants to create another fight club)

balance is badly missing and people are hurting

no one has ever said that I have seen in these forums, that God does not heal and that includes Angela and most certainly myself.
You can believe what you want. I choose to believe that it is God's will for us to be healed and to be whole. Will all people be healed? No and for various reasons.

I too dis-agree with some the word of faith teachings in some areas as it was taught by some in the past - in others - I do agree.

And this is the reason why below I believe God wants us all healed - but you can agree to disagree too.

So, you see people can disagree without maligning and slandering the other person because of it. It can be done. I have no qualms in exposing this foul behavior for what it truly is.

I have said this many times in the past and will continue to boldly proclaim this:

Paul says - happy is he who doesn't condemn himself in what he believes. Let him have their own faith before God so people are allowed to have a different opinion on subjects such as healing.

Jesus is perfect theology:

Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father. Jesus said no one knows my Father but the Son and He has come to reveal Him to men. Jesus came to do the will of the Father.

Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father as well as the will of the Father.

If we want to see what the Father's will is concerning a subject - see what Jesus did while He was on this earth.

If we want to see how the Father views sinners - look to see how Jesus interacted with them. ( both the prostitutes and the religious Pharisees )

If we want to see if it's God's will to heal people in their physical bodies - look to Jesus while He was here on this earth. He healed "all" that came to Him. He does not change.

If we want to see what the Father's discipline looks like - watch Jesus discipline the disciples - He did it with His words.

Jesus and the Father are One in their nature, purpose and love.

There is not one time - NOT one time where some one who came to Jesus for healing - that was not healed. He healed all that came to Him. There are many scriptures that attest to this fact.

No where do we find anywhere in Jesus' life where do we see any of these things being said by Jesus to anyone;

1) I can't heal you because God is trying to teach you something.

2) I can't heal you because you have sin in your life.

3) I can't heal you because you have not forgiven your mother-in-law. ( or anyone )

4) I can't heal you because you have not been eating and exercising properly. ( They were all on the Mediterranean Diet too...:) )

5) I can't heal you because God wants you to suffer with this sickness so that you will learn to trust in Him.

None of these things ever occurred although we have been taught by some of our church teachings that they are true. There is no evidence in the life of Jesus - in fact - the evidence is the complete opposite of what we have been taught in some circles.

Everyone is free to have the faith that they have before God. I won't insult or de-mean nor try to "lord it over their faith" if they choose to believe something else.

I will not call them a "cult" because of their unbelief in God's word on the subject that is different from others nor will I say that they are now "in heresy". I expect others to act with the same respect towards others as well.

God bless you.

We have a good, good Father and a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ. I believe we haven't even scratched the surface of understanding what Christ has done for us on the cross and resurrection and that we too have died with Him and are raised to newness of life. One day we will get incorruptible bodies where we will not be attacked. Thank you Jesus!

 
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sevenseas

Guest
#53
You can believe what you want. I choose to believe that it is God's will for us to be healed and to be whole. Will all people be healed? No and for various reasons.
the difference between myself and those who are persuaded you are the grace guru, is that, thank you, I do NOT want to believe whatever I want and if you seek wisdom, from scripture, you will many reasons why that is so

you contradict yourself with what you have underlined but I don't suppose you will loose sleep over it
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
#54
There is a difference between consequences for people doing something in their lives and the hand of the Lord coming down to take from us. When we have been warned not to steal and we steal anyway., we will go to jail for stealing., that is not God who sends us to jail. If we have pride issues and refuse to deal with them., God is not going to zap us., but our lives will suffer from that because pride goes before a fall. It's a natural consequence for our actions. If you eat too much., you will get fat.

Job was not a perfect person. He was a righteous man in the sight of God but that in no way means the man was perfect. He was not a perfect parent and he didn't have perfect children. His wife sounds like she was a piece of work. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord and Noah was a righteous man but that in no way means Noah was perfect. None of the Patriarchs in the Bible were perfectly wonderful people. They were just like us with issues and problems and weaknesses that needed to be dealt with and in some cases were not dealt with and they suffered in their lives because of them just like we do.


We Christians have to think and re think and examine what we have been taught through the years of our childhood and our church up bringing. Being willing to see that maybe our dad or mom or pastor didn't teach us 100% the right way. That there is actually "room" for the Holy Spirit to show us a new and living way. We don't automatically do this each day. It has to be an active choice on our part to even consider we may not be 100% right about everything up to this point in our lives. To dismiss our deeply ingrained and limited ideas of God and instead taste and see that the Lord is good., that the truth of Who God is will be seen when we see Jesus. And the Holy Spirit reveals Jesus to us. He always points to Jesus. (And yes, Jesus always healed those who came to Him. Always)

To expect a pat answer about the Bible is not going to happen folks. I know., we all want that but it just will not happen that way. We are told to search the Scriptures and submit ourselves to the Holy Spirit in a relationship so He can teach us. This is how we show ourselves approved in that matter of study. It's a matter of putting down our own imaginations and taking what the Holy Spirit wants to teach us instead.

So., I've discovered Job was not perfect and the Lord did not take from Job., the devil did. Just like the devil tries to take from us today. And still even though many Christians have the Bible and Job didn't since Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible., Today Christians STILL blame God for evil and not the devil. It's just uncanny to me that we humans are so set in our ways we will die rather than be open to the possibility of our being wrong. And I've also learned that God will not force us to believe Him even if we die. We will go to heaven but we will suffer because we failed to believe in the goodness of God for us.
It isn't God who kills steals and destroys., it's the devil and if we don't get that straight., we are going to be very messed up in our lives let alone our theology.




 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#55
There is a difference between consequences for people doing something in their lives and the hand of the Lord coming down to take from us. When we have been warned not to steal and we steal anyway., we will go to jail for stealing., that is not God who sends us to jail. If we have pride issues and refuse to deal with them., God is not going to zap us., but our lives will suffer from that because pride goes before a fall. It's a natural consequence for our actions. If you eat too much., you will get fat.

Job was not a perfect person. He was a righteous man in the sight of God but that in no way means the man was perfect. He was not a perfect parent and he didn't have perfect children. His wife sounds like she was a piece of work. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord and Noah was a righteous man but that in no way means Noah was perfect. None of the Patriarchs in the Bible were perfectly wonderful people. They were just like us with issues and problems and weaknesses that needed to be dealt with and in some cases were not dealt with and they suffered in their lives because of them just like we do.


We Christians have to think and re think and examine what we have been taught through the years of our childhood and our church up bringing. Being willing to see that maybe our dad or mom or pastor didn't teach us 100% the right way. That there is actually "room" for the Holy Spirit to show us a new and living way. We don't automatically do this each day. It has to be an active choice on our part to even consider we may not be 100% right about everything up to this point in our lives. To dismiss our deeply ingrained and limited ideas of God and instead taste and see that the Lord is good., that the truth of Who God is will be seen when we see Jesus. And the Holy Spirit reveals Jesus to us. He always points to Jesus. (And yes, Jesus always healed those who came to Him. Always)

To expect a pat answer about the Bible is not going to happen folks. I know., we all want that but it just will not happen that way. We are told to search the Scriptures and submit ourselves to the Holy Spirit in a relationship so He can teach us. This is how we show ourselves approved in that matter of study. It's a matter of putting down our own imaginations and taking what the Holy Spirit wants to teach us instead.

So., I've discovered Job was not perfect and the Lord did not take from Job., the devil did. Just like the devil tries to take from us today. And still even though many Christians have the Bible and Job didn't since Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible., Today Christians STILL blame God for evil and not the devil. It's just uncanny to me that we humans are so set in our ways we will die rather than be open to the possibility of our being wrong. And I've also learned that God will not force us to believe Him even if we die. We will go to heaven but we will suffer because we failed to believe in the goodness of God for us.





I love you sis and you know that,

but Daniel commited no sins, yet god took all had,
 
S

sevenseas

Guest
#56
I absolutely agree with you sister on this WOF or prosperity stuff and everyone will be healed IF they have enough faith. I don't like it one bit.

Further,NONE of them have been able to answer why THEIR faith isn't strong enough to heal people. And if it is, and they can, why aren't they out there every second healing people!

But there is something else going on here. I get the "we need to identify false doctrine" doctrine. But on some issues, maybe faith healing is one, we have different ideas on what is and what is not Scripturally accurate. And therefore the fairly harsh condemnation heaped on not only the doctrine, but the adherents of that doctrine, I don't think is right, or loving.

For instance, as hurtful and destructive as I believe the faith WOF healing doctrine is, I believe the heretical doctrine, pushed and fought for by MANY here, that we can lose our Salvation, meaning we HAD it at one time, TO MUCH MORE HURTFUL AND DESTRUCTIVE!

And I, and I think you, and many others here, counter that heresy in a fairly loving manner. Obviously some may not, but by and large most do.

So why does what I admit wrong doctrine on THIS issue garner such vitriol, and much of it personal to boot? Why not just give an opinion and Scripture to counter the doctrine and leave it at that?
well that's it then. just there in what you have said

it's PERSONAL

people are by and large not comfortable with letting go of what makes them feel safe nor do they usually want to have a life altering experience contrary to what they held so dear

I understand that we are to give a reasonable response tendered with consideration and compassion and all the other fruits of the Holy Spirit

I have certainly not been that person 100% of the time, as God gently brought me out of a terrible deception placed on me by other Christians and that almost destroyed me, so I understand some of the struggle. it's real

I do get angry sometimes at that (sorry) insanity of what some seem to think the Bible says as well as the bizarre practices of certain Christians who seek out such things and they do experience them but they are not of God

I could go on and on and on but some people have the idea that God would not fool them. Well he wouldn't. but if you are the most innocent person on the planet and love God and desire to hurt no one and want to serve God with your entire heart and yet get yourself mixed up with demonic teachings (or doctrines of demons as the Bible calls it) you are not going to escape unscathed unless God does something out of the ordinary

by and large, we live in the world we create and the more truth we have accepted and allowed to work in us, the more sane we are

and doesn't that sound stuffy LOL!
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
#57
I love you sis and you know that,

but Daniel commited no sins, yet god took all had,

I can't give you pat answers EG. It takes time to learn another way. I'm thankful you love me as a sister in Christ thank you for that. I love my brothers and sisters here too.

You have heard the saying "in such a time as this" ? I think of Daniel and David and Job and Mary and Dorcus and Paul and Mark and John and all the other amazing men and woman of the Bible when thinking of that verse somewhere in the Bible. Each of us are here for such a time as this. We are uniquely blended in time along with other people to have an impact. Some people are born with congenital defects and get saved and go on to do great things for God. God uses them in their problems in a unique and amazing way. I don't understand it but He does. Why sin had to happen is not for me to answer. But God is always the giver and not the taker. He is the answer to the problem, He is not the problem. He sent Jesus to BE our Advocate.

I also think back in the OT times, they didn't have an Advocate the way we do today. They didn't have the promise of the Holy Spirit staying with them like we do. There is so much we don't know but there is so much we can know if we are willing. I am willing to believe God is always good and the bad things that happen do not come from His hand. I'm going to be learning about how good He is each day and still will not find out the extent of it here while in this body. But we have the Holy Spirit who gives those rivers of living water right now.

The Bible tells us clearly that God is good. But we each have to come to the end conclusion on our own. I can't convince any one here on these forums but there are believers who are of the same leaning like me who seek to fall into the love and grace of God while here on earth. And who have and seen He did not let us fall flat on our faces when we trusted Him. And we know there is no "plan-B" just in case God doesn't come through the way He promised.

 
D

Depleted

Guest
#58
attacking a person is not speaking up,

showing a point a person made, and saying I disagree, and this is why, is speaking up and discussing openly and is not judgmental.
Wrong person to say that to. I've got no problems with "judgmental" as long as it is done with understanding.

1 Cor. 5:[FONT=&quot]9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. [/FONT]11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
[FONT=&quot]12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.[/FONT]
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
#59
some good points and perhaps more than a little valid

David especially. the man threw himself before God and fasted to the point the servants were afraid for his mental state.

imagine that.

he begged and pleaded with God not to take the life of the child born of his adulterous and murderous affair with Bathsheeba

ever done something sinful and begged God not to let you eat the fruit of the tree you planted? I have. it is painful to the point of wishing you had passed off the earth. or do I just feel more? anyway.....

God said no. the child died and David got up, cleaned himself up and called for food

David accepted the no. that would all be a part of being a person after God's own heart

these are deep, very deep subjects and I refer to many years of Bible study which has helped me to understand as much as I do and to help me understand that I must allow God to be God and have FAITH He loves me and wants the best for me whether or not I understand that

some here get that and some think this is not true and some are struggling with it and some are going to get real hurt before their lives are over because they reject it. you see, it IS the truth and no matter how much we wish we could pull down every blessing and have the best life ever, the best life ever and all the blessings we can pull down, are already ours in Christ

I could go on, but I'm not the preacher here


I'm sure I have not studied as much as you or others on these threads but I know something about the grace covenant I'm in.


David was a man after God's own heart AND the apple of His eye....but David didn't have an Advocate the way we do today. David had to pay for the things he did. Punishments got meated out back then. Discipline and punishments are not the same. Covenants are amazing things and I'm thankful today I'm in the new covenant of grace. I don't think about what I would have done in the days of David.

There are things God has promised would happen in these covenants and we all need to know what covenant we are in. To get them mixed up makes trying to understand the things of God very difficult. Yes, these are all heavy issues for us here to look at because we all have much at stake. Our faith and beliefs hinge on the Bible and the Holy Spirit but we each have a lot to learn in all those areas. I'm so thankful He will not give us a snake when we ask Him for help. We can have that daily expectation of good coming from Him but I've also realized we do not get things we don't believe Him for.

That was a hard lesson for me but none the less a major one that causes me to always think in the positive to have an expectation of good coming from my Father God because of Jesus.
 
May 12, 2017
2,641
65
0
#60
attacking a person is not speaking up,

showing a point a person made, and saying I disagree, and this is why, is speaking up and discussing openly and is not judgmental.


Allow me to do that now....and on this OP:

Job displayed this very same attitude when he received the news that he had lost his property and children. Thinking that God was the source of his problems and not knowing that it was actually Satan who had come against him, he said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return there. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.” (Job 1:21) Such a statement seems to honor God, but in reality, it reveals an erroneous view of our heavenly Father.

The teaching is saying this to me....

What the Bible says in Job 1.21...is not what it really says or means....
The teaching then uses scriptures in Luke 12, John 10 and 14 to prove the DOCTRINE of the teaching, not the teaching or what Job 1.21 is saying.<<<<<<doing this, is called proof texting. A proof text removes context from the teaching, because it re-enforces the proof of the pet-doctrine and not the truth of scripture

Such a statement seems to honor God, but in reality, it reveals an erroneous view of our heavenly Father
This statement is a direct contradiction to the truth of scripture of Job 1.21 because it does not agree with the doctrine being presented. this is the reason for the proof text.

The teaching then uses other scriptures to contradict Job 1.21 [bold below]

As children of God, we know what the Father’s will is for us. He is a giver, not a taker! Jesus said, “Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.” (Luke 12:32) It is the devil who is the thief. He comes to steal, kill and destroy. But Jesus came to give us life more abundant. (John 10:10)


scripture does interpret scripture, so this is a glaring fault...why would anyone use scripture to contradict another scripture? proof texting and pre-texting....This alone is enough to disqualify reading this teaching any further..and to claim it false.

Jesus met every need and healed every sickness brought before Him, and at the cross, He gave His own life. Never once did He take anything away from the people who came to Him. And the Bible says that whoever has seen Jesus has seen the Father. (John 14:9)<<<<<<Could the teaching be trying to implant the thought of the oneness doctrine in the teaching by referring to John 14.9?

Beloved, your heavenly Father wants you to know today that He is the one who gives you all good things. And if He has already given us heaven’s best—Jesus, “how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things”?

Once again the teaching cuts out part of a verse and thought from a whole complete passage and engages again in proof texting...the bolded portion of the verse above is only part of Romans 8.32....if we add Vs 31-39 to this, we get more context...which makes this whole teaching fall apart and proves it to be a text without context, that uses a pretext and a proof text to further a doctrine and not advance scriptural truth...

The teaching uses scripture to contradict the primary verse it dislikes the most, that being Job 1.21

Anytime Scripture is used to contradict another scripture it is not valid and therefrom can be judged as false...

This teaching is false based on this alone....the theology is not even worth discussing, because of how bad it is...
 
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