The Old Covenant

[Grace777x70]

My personal view when all the facts are taken in the whole is that the 144,000 are the wave offering by Christ as the first fruits unto God...they are ALL the boys under the age of 2 murdered by Herod in ALL the coasts of Israel.....

being redeemed from the EARTH and FROM among MEN (they have lived and died)
ALL virgin males not defiled with women
no deceit or guile
follow the Lord where ever he goes
only two places listed (location) In HEAVEN before the throne and ON MOUNT ZION with JESUS
learn a UNIQUE song only they know and can sing (unique group)
etc...

Rachael weeping for her children and her children are not (unique prophecy applied unto the boys killed by HEROD)

Talk about a perfect first fruit offering (same word applied unto JESUS)

144,000 pure Jewish males and the 1st MARTYRS in the place of and for the particular name of JESUS.....

That's different view...thanks for telling me that. I'm listening now to this guy on the video to see what he is saying. I do think a lot of things were fulfilled in 70 AD that are talked about in Matt. 24. I'm not stuck in it as being completely accurate but I'm open to hear what is being said by both groups.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Herod was King of Judea not Israel, and the children who were murdered were in Bethlehem and the environs.

So, no, now way the 144,000 are the children murdered by Herod, as they were all Jews, as Herod was hunting down the seed of David.

 

[iamsoandso]

Just an observation that might help regarding the timing of the seals being opened. In Revelation 5:1-9 none had been(past tense) able to open the seals(so they were unknown/sealed) but in Rev. 5:1-9 the language indicates that because of him being slain(past tense) he was found worthy to loose the seals. So before the D.B.R. they remained unopened so were unknown(sealed) then after that time were unsealed and made known.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I already proved that part of Lev 26 refereed back to the Abraham covenant. Now I will go further to show that it is still in effect today.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
[SUP]28 [/SUP]then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;

your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies’ land;
then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]As long as it lies desolate it shall rest—
for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it.

[SUP]36 [/SUP]‘And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies;

the sound of a shaken leaf shall cause them to flee;
they shall flee as though fleeing from a sword, and they shall fall when no one pursues.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]They shall stumble over one another, as it were before a sword, when no one pursues;

and you shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.

[SUP]39 [/SUP]And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands;

also in their fathers’ iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away.

At no point during the Babylonian or Persian control of Israel has all of the people of Israel been cast out to "waste away in their enemies lands" All during that time, there were jews living in th eland of Israel. Even Jerusalem had inhabitants, it just had no wall or protection. It even had a puppet king.

This did not occure until 70 AD. when God cast ALL who was in the land out of it. Yet God still made this promise, even after that.


[SUP]44 [/SUP]Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;

for I am the Lord their God.

[SUP]45 [/SUP]But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:

I am the Lord.’”



Think about it, They broke their covenant with God (mosaic) thus God punished them by destroying their high places. their cities, and their sanctuary,, Yet God promised, he would NEVER BREAK HIS COVENANT WITH THEM.

That is WHY in romans 11. Paul said there will ALWAYS be a remnant, why? Because God promised even when they are scattered He will NEVER destroy them, and make them so they are no longer a nation anymore (they are just a homeless nation as long as they are in sin)

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Excuse me EG.

Can you explain to me, in simple font, preferably of one size, preferably in one simple statement, where in Lev 26 the land is promised, as you claim it is?

lev 26:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]‘If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments, and perform them,
[SUP]4 [/SUP]then I will give you rain in its season, the land shall yield its produce, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Your threshing shall last till the time of vintage, and the vintage shall last till the time of sowing;
you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none will make you afraid;
I will rid the land of evil beasts,
and the sword will not go through your land.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight;
your enemies shall fall by the sword before you.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]‘For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]I will set My tabernacle among you, and My soul shall not abhor you.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I will walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that you should not be their slaves;
I have broken the bands of your yoke and made you walk upright.

Mind telling me what this has to do with the OLD COVENANT and SALVATION of ONE PERSON?

The covenant God spoke of in verse 9 is the abrahamic covenant, It could not be the mosaic, Because the mosaic covenant never promised them any land..


[SUP]44 [/SUP]Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;

for I am the Lord their God.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:

I am the Lord.’”



1. are they not in the land of their enemies today?
2. Did God not promise he would ALWAYS keep a remnant (so as not to utterly destroy them)
3. Again, reference to the Abrahamic covenant, When god promised in 400 years to take Abrahams descendents, who would be slaves and take them into their land.

Gen 15: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Excuse me EG.

Can you explain to me, in simple font, preferably of one size, preferably in one simple statement, where in Lev 26 the land is promised, as you claim it is?

It is not promised in Lev 26. It is promised in Gen 15 and Gen 17. Lev 26 is just Gods guidelines for being able to be blessed in what God gave them under the Abraham covenant.

ie, I gave you this land through your fathers.

Do this, and you will live in peace. (as I showed earlier)

do not do this, and I will start to punish you, Continue to disobey, and I will punish you 7 times more. ongoing as long as you continue, until Finally as the last resort, I will do what I did in the northern kingdom through Assyria, The southern kingdom through Babylon, and again, when I took it to its fullest deepest punishment in AD 70.

But even after this, If you repent, what did he say?

Lev 26:
[SUP]42 [/SUP]then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Cool, so we have established that the Abrahamic Covenant is conditional.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Cool, so we have established that the Abrahamic Covenant is conditional.

Nope. How do you get this? God did not tell abraham if you and your descendents do this, I will give you this land..

We have not established any such thing,. The abrahamic covenant is unconditional. The land belongs to the people.. Them being BLESSED by the land is what is conditional.

If the abrahamic covenant was conditional. Lev 26 would have been given to abraham, not his children after they came into the land.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Eh? You have just proven that the Abrahamic Covenant is conditional. You argue with yourself, shall I butt out?

 

[dcontroversal]

MAYBE you should read a little more.....

Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Most commentaries believe the slaughter was confined to Bethlehem

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eh? You have just proven that the Abrahamic Covenant is conditional. You argue with yourself, shall I butt out?

please, instead of accusing, can you at least explain how I proved that? Especially since nothing I said shows that the land BELONGING to Isreal was conditional?

ps. If the Abrahamic covenant is conditional. Then you and I have no hope. God could change his mind any time and send us all to hell..

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Leviticus 26
3 If you follow my statutes and keep my commandments and observe them faithfully, (I.E. OBSERVE MOSAIC LAW = MOSAIC COVENANT)..............
............
...............
.................
42 then will I remember my covenant with Jacob; I will remember also my covenant with Isaac and also my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land.(ABRAHAMIC COVENANT)

This was the point you made, very nicely. It is very well made.

The land covenant, which as you said was the Abrahamic Covenant, is contingent on the observance of the Mosaic Covenant. It was your point, not mine! But I wholeheartedly agree. Ergo, the land covenant is conditional.

 

[DustyRhodes]

Luke 21 :22
For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

When Jesus spoke about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, he made it quite clear that this was the fulfilment of all Old Testament prophecy and Law. Once Jerusalem was destroyed, then that was it. The Old Covenant was over, and the Law as an agreement between God and his people had expired.

Paul corroborates this in Hebrews, written circa 60AD, where he tells us that the Old Covenant has waxed old and is decayed, and is on the point of vanishing.

A lot of those whom I would call 'reprobate' Christians, will argue long and hard, either on the basis of misapplication of Scripture, or because they are pickled in the vinegar of Zionism, that the state of Israel is God's bit on the side, and much as he loves the Church, the real Israel, he just really can't get over his old flame, and will tolerate any behaviour from her, just as long as he can hold her in his arms again.

This is really nonsense. God is not a man. He is a God of justice. He will always accept anybody who renounces sin and comes to him through Christ, but he has no ongoing thing for the land of Israel or the earthly City of Jerusalem.

Jeremiah 19 makes this plain:

19 Thus saith the Lord, Go and get a potter's earthen bottle, and take of the ancients of the people, and of the ancients of the priests;
2 And go forth unto the valley of the son of Hinnom, which is by the entry of the east gate, and proclaim there the words that I shall tell thee,
3 And say, Hear ye the word of the Lord, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.
4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
6 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but The valley of slaughter.
7 And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.
8 And I will make this city desolate, and an hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues thereof.
9 And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.
10 Then shalt thou break the bottle in the sight of the men that go with thee,
11 And shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel,that cannot be made whole again: and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury.
12 Thus will I do unto this place, saith the Lord, and to the inhabitants thereof, and even make this city as Tophet:
13 And the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses of the kings of Judah, shall be defiled as the place of Tophet, because of all the houses upon whose roofs they have burned incense unto all the host of heaven, and have poured out drink offerings unto other gods.
14 Then came Jeremiah from Tophet, whither the Lord had sent him to prophesy; and he stood in the court of the Lord's house; and said to all the people,
15 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it, because they have hardened their necks, that they might not hear my words.


Jerusalem + Judah (the Jews) is a clay jar that has been smashed into millions of pieces (AD 70) and it cannot be reconstructed, nor can its people.

And this is so. The genealogical records of the Jews perished in AD 70 with the temple, so nobody today can show they are a bloodline Jew. Such a thing no longer exists. Only followers of the various strands of Pharisaism exist.

Am I missing something here. Why is this discussion about the old covenants of which there were several. We are now living under the new covenant which is the risen Lord. Verses following;

Hebrews 8: [SUP]13 [/SUP]By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Gal.5:Christ of no value
5 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace

Romans 13: Love Fulfills the Law
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.

Children of God
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Before the coming of this faith,[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]j[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Old Covenant means the Sinai/Moab Covenant.

The Abrahamic + Davidic Covenants never expired.

I think that is the consensus....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Leviticus 26
3 If you follow my statutes and keep my commandments and observe them faithfully, (I.E. OBSERVE MOSAIC LAW = MOSAIC COVENANT)..............
............
...............
.................
42 then will I remember my covenant with Jacob; I will remember also my covenant with Isaac and also my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land.(ABRAHAMIC COVENANT)

This was the point you made, very nicely. It is very well made.

The land covenant, which as you said was the Abrahamic Covenant, is contingent on the observance of the Mosaic Covenant. It was your point, not mine! But I wholeheartedly agree. Ergo, the land covenant is conditional.

you did what KJ did, and eft it to one verse, and totally disregarded the rest of the passage.

That is what happens when you try to make a doctrine out of one or two verses.. You reject context of the whole story.

If you read everything I posted you would have seen, Even if they have disobeyed God, and are punished. God still will remember his covenant, and not break it.

[SUP]44 [/SUP]Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;

for I am the Lord their God.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God:

I am the Lord.’”

Which goes with what I said earlier, that even when they are being punished, and living in the land of their enemies, and their city is laid in ruins, The cobvenant still stands, God will not break it.

why?

it is unconditional


[SUB][SUP][/SUP][/SUB][SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Old Covenant means the Sinai/Moab Covenant.

The Abrahamic + Davidic Covenants never expired.

I think that is the consensus....

the old covenant had many parts.

Some are still in effect today, The command do not commit adultery is still in effect. If it was not. how could it lead people today through Christ.

The Old Covenant as far as the traditions, ceremonies and priesthood however is no longer active. Because they were used like a schoolmaster to lead people to Christ.


And yes, the Davidic and Abrahamic is still in effect. People are being saved according to the Abrahamic every day.

 

[stonesoffire]

In stead of a rant against people who disagree with you, I would be interested in your take on the verses Spurge posted especially the verse below. Is this verse wrong, is it not talking about the Jews or Jerusalem? How does "that cannot be made whole again" not really mean what it says? Please explain just explain the verse in your own words and don't post 30 out of context verses.... just explain what verse 11 means.

11 And shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel,that cannot be made whole again: and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury.

What is happening today is a new thing, yet an old thing restored. The fulfillment of promises to the prophets.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

You're mad...ly infuriating.

Look, the jews were tossed out of Judah, and the Abrahamic Covenant annulled, unless they repented. That is what it says.

If they repented then they could come back into the land, after Sabbath reparation, which happened after 70 years in Babylon.

Even assuming the people that returned in 1948 were Jews, that is (1948 - 73 = 1871 years of exile).

1871 Sabbaths = 1871 X 7 years = 13,097 years.

The Jews barely inhabited Judea 1,500 years, let alone 13,097 years!!!!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're mad...ly infuriating.

Look, the jews were tossed out of Judah, and the Abrahamic Covenant annulled, unless they repented. That is what it says.

No it does not say that. It says that someone else will enjoy what was rightly theirs. And I proved that by the last part of lev 26. Why do you ignore that passage.

ps. You are just as madly infuriating.

If they repented then they could come back into the land, after Sabbath reparation, which happened after 70 years in Babylon.

Yep. and will happen again after they repent (according to OT prophets. and paul in romans 11 and revelation)

but again, the land was there's the whole time they were away, They just were not able to use it. That is what the Abrahamic covenant says.

Even assuming the people that returned in 1948 were Jews, that is (1948 - 73 = 1871 years of exile).

1871 Sabbaths = 1871 X 7 years = 13,097 years.

The Jews barely inhabited Judea 1,500 years, let alone 13,097 years!!!!!

This means nothing to me, nor an I arguing from that point.

1. I never stated they were real jews it is also not for me to decide, God knows, and that is all that matters.
2. If they ,They are not living in peace. and they do not own the land, Jerusalem is inhabited by their enemy still, and according to jewish tradition, still lies desolate because of the dome of the rock.
3. This in no way refutes that one day in the future, as God promised. Israel will repent (the time of Jacobs trouble is used to being about their repentance) AND GOD HIMSELF will bring ALL Israel, from whatever land they live in, back to their land, and he will rule (Davidic covenant) himself with a rod of iron.