The Olivet Discourse

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miknik5

miknik5

Senior Member
#21
Jun 2, 2016
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#21
J7 said:
with regard the widow?
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The widow has no attachments to treasures. She wasn't coming to the temple for superficial reasons

And when the disciples pointed out the beauty of the temple, in a sense, HE told them that things aren't going to be so beautiful. And during that ugly time, to be sober and vigilant, to pray always to guard their hearts and to keep their eyes on HIM

They were beginning to "fall asleep"

after HE gives them
somw end time signs, HE says in Luke 21:34-36 to be on guard and watchful so as not to be deceived
 
J

J7

Banned
#22
Apr 2, 2017
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#22
In fact the accounts of Mark and Matthew differ critically from Luke's.

In Matthew and Mark, Jesus refers to the destruction of the Temple.

Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

In Luke he refers to the state of desolation that the Temple will then exist in:

[FONT=&quot]6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”[/FONT]


That difference is absolutely critical to properly understand the account in Luke; so actually, both his statement and the questions of the followers are different in Luke.
 
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miknik5

miknik5

Senior Member
#23
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#23
J7 said:
In fact the accounts of Mark and Matthew differ critically from Luke's.

In Matthew and Mark, Jesus refers to the destruction of the Temple.

Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

In Luke he refers to the state of desolation that the Temple will then exist in:

behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

That difference is absolutely critical to properly understand the account in Luke; so actually, both his statement and the questions of the followers are different in Luke.
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Luke's gospel has an element of humanity involved. We see more human interaction and expression than we do in Matthew and mark

its not a critical difference
the accounts don't change the truth that at the end of the ages, CHRIST, in forewarnnng HIS disciples about these signs that they will happen, their work is to watch and wait and be ready
 
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J

J7

Banned
#24
Apr 2, 2017
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#24
Yes, I don't know :)

But in Luke Jesus says

"the days will come - hemera erchomai - when there shall not be left one stone on another"

This is different to Matthew and Mark.

The followers ask: "When shall these things be?"

So the question they are asking is not: "When will the Temple be destroyed?"

but,

"When will the Temple be left desolate?"

Therefore Jesus's reply must encompass the entire duration of the desolation, which is why his answer runs on from the destruction of Jerusalem, to the Times Of The Gentiles, all the way up to his second coming.
 
miknik5

miknik5

Senior Member
#25
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#25
J7 said:
Yes, I don't know :)

But in Luke Jesus says

"the days will come - hemera erchomai - when there shall not be left one stone on another"

This is different to Matthew and Mark.

The followers ask: "When shall these things be?"

So the question they are asking is not: "When will the Temple be destroyed?"

but,

"When will the Temple be left desolate?"

Therefore Jesus's reply must encompass the entire duration of the desolation, which is why his answer runs on from the destruction of Jerusalem, to the Times Of The Gentiles, all the way up to his second coming.
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If there is not one stone left upon the other, the temple is destroyed

oh I see what you are saying
but HE does in a sense say the same thing in Luke when HE refers to the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled in Luke 21:24
 
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J

J7

Banned
#26
Apr 2, 2017
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#26
Yes, he goes from explaining AD 70, and all the events leading up to it, through to his Second Coming:


22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled......
(AD67-73)
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: (AD70) and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, (AD70 onward) until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.(.....some time soon I think)

Now we are in the 21st Century / future:
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#27
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
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#27
J7 said:
Yes, Mark and Matthew differ, but Luke's account should also be internally consistent should it not?
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It is consistent, it takes all 3 gospels to understand.
 
miknik5

miknik5

Senior Member
#28
Jun 2, 2016
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#28
Is this the time of the Gentiles mentioned in Luke 21?

Daniel 12

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
 
J

J7

Banned
#29
Apr 2, 2017
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#29
Yes, clearly.

I am not disagreeing....

I am just trying to untangle some stuff where people are trying to stick it all in the future or the all in the past.
 
J

J7

Banned
#30
Apr 2, 2017
1,915
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#30
miknik5 said:
Is this the time of the Gentiles mentioned in Luke 21?

Daniel 12

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
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That is the million dollar question.

From the text, the time of the Nations seems to mean the time when Jerusalem is under foreign control, so whenever Jerusalem is totally under the control of Israel, I guess that would be when the times of the Gentiles finishes....

just a guess though....
 
KJV1611

KJV1611

Banned
#31
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
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#31
J7 said:
Yes, he goes from explaining AD 70, and all the events leading up to it, through to his Second Coming:


22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled......
(AD67-73)
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: (AD70) and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, (AD70 onward) until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.(.....some time soon I think)

Now we are in the 21st Century / future:
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Click to expand...
Here's where my view differs, I don't see the changeover to the end times in verse 24. I see the first part of verse 24 as a statement - them going into captivity and the last part of the verse as a description of the first part of the verse - How long will the captivity last? Until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Verse 25, Pick back up with the "original" story. I see your point but I think we may have to go to other scripture to get the definitive answer.
 
miknik5

miknik5

Senior Member
#32
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
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#32
J7 said:
Yes, he goes from explaining AD 70, and all the events leading up to it, through to his Second Coming:


22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled......
(AD67-73)
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: (AD70) and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, (AD70 onward) until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.(.....some time soon I think)

Now we are in the 21st Century / future:
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Click to expand...
I don't agree that you are to separate and time these events
I don't believe they are separate events at all

where do you place the craftsmen of zechariah?
 
J

J7

Banned
#33
Apr 2, 2017
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#33
@KJV

So:


And they shall fall by the edge of the sword ; (and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles)


and shall be led away captive into all nations ; (until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled)
 
J

J7

Banned
#34
Apr 2, 2017
1,915
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0
#34
miknik5 said:
I don't agree that you are to separate and time these events
I don't believe they are separate events at all

where do you place the craftsmen of zechariah?
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So you believe Jesus has returned?
 
miknik5

miknik5

Senior Member
#35
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
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#35
J7 said:
@KJV

So:


And they shall fall by the edge of the sword ; (and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles)


and shall be led away captive into all nations ; (until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled)
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You can't forget the "violent men of the covenant"

this is why i said to you that there is more (according to the eyes of GOD) to a "gentile" than what our eyes physically identify as a gentile


some who seem to be of the physical and earthly Israel are really not of THE SPIRITUAL ISRAEL
 
miknik5

miknik5

Senior Member
#37
Jun 2, 2016
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588
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#37
So you do not believe an earthly temple will be rebuilt during troublesome times?
 
J

J7

Banned
#38
Apr 2, 2017
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0
#38
The Gentiles in view are the Romans, the 4th beast of Daniel 2/7.

They then mutated into the little horn, the Papacy, the 5th beast of Daniel 2/7.

So I suppose the Times of The Gentiles here means until the end of the 5th Beast's time of rule.
 
miknik5

miknik5

Senior Member
#39
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#39
The craftsmen will come before CHRIST comes
 
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