The Original Pentecostal Movement

[Enow]

did The Acts of The Apostles (the actual title of the Book) end?

where are the Apostles now?

are you an apostle?
no, because - you were not an eye-witness of Him in His Resurrection.

Paul wasn't an actual witness of Him in His resurrection but he was considered an apostle even though he saw Him in a vision.

Plus... one of the offices in the churches is apostle.

Ephesians 4:[SUP]11 [/SUP]And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [SUP]12 [/SUP]For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [SUP]14 [/SUP]That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [SUP]15 [/SUP]But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Until I see a Biblical definition of an apostle in the Bible, I am pretty sure we should not limit the title of an apostle to only someone that has seen Him in the resurrection.

 

[zone]

John the Baptist said it.
Matthew 3:11 (KJV) [SUP]11 [/SUP]I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
[HR][/HR]Luke 3:16 (KJV) [SUP]16 [/SUP]John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

How did you miss that?

no, i think she was asking, and cessationists have asked before, for that specific phrase Baptism of the Holy Ghost (or Spirit).

it's not there.

in any case, this is what that was about:

Luke 1
1In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized witha water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

6Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.


that was about them.
for reasons the bible makes clear repeatedly.

His witnesses. called in person and chosen for that purpose.

anyway.

 

[RickShafer]

Oh - 'obfuscation'?
Well placed word there Zoney.(Big Smile)
However my point stands, that the 'original pentecostal movement' started on the fiftieth day after the ascension and hasn't ended.

 

[zone]

Until I see a Biblical definition of an apostle in the Bible, I am pretty sure we should not limit the title of an apostle to only someone that has seen Him in the resurrection.

call yourself or someone else an apostle if you want to.
like.....can i see some evidence Christ called them specifically, and they have Power from on High to witness to something that isn't recorded?

if not, why do it? why the need to be An Apostle specifically.


no, we know why He called and gave them power.

 

[zone]

Oh - 'obfuscation'?
Well placed word there Zoney.(Big Smile)
However my point stands, that the 'original pentecostal movement' started on the fiftieth day after the ascension and hasn't ended.

right.
well, history and the Bible disagree with you.
The Acts of the Apostles ended with them.

...

anyways....so can we say Mr. Parham was wrong about tongues?

then we could just move forward.

 

[Enow]

call yourself or someone else an apostle if you want to.
like.....can i see some evidence Christ called them specifically, and they have Power from on High to witness to something that isn't recorded?

if not, why do it? why the need to be An Apostle specifically.


no, we know why He called and gave them power.

Then every believer is an apostle by that definition.

John 1:[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I can't give the definition of an apostle either. Just saying that the office of apostlship is not that defined in the Bible.

 

[unclefester]

Then every believer is an apostle by that definition.

John 1:[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [SUP]13 [/SUP]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I can't give the definition of an apostle either. Just saying that the office of apostlship is not that defined in the Bible.

This is.

Revelations 21:14

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

 

[The_highwayman]

Still waiting for someone to show me the phrase: "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" or "Baptism of the Holy Ghost".

Quoting Acts 2 is nice, but that phrase is not there. I wonder why?

You are correct that you will not find the exact phrase "Baptism of the Holy Ghost" But what you will find in the below passages is something subsequent to water baptism. I am giving you the verse only, but as we all do, please read the entire passage to keep everything in context, so we don't fall into the you are out of context games

Matt 3.11
Mark 1.8
Luke 3.16
Acts 1.5
Acts 11.16
Acts 19.1-7

Again, the exact term is not in these passage and you should read them in context, just not the verses I listed. Certain Theology states the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is received at salvation or during water baptism and these scriptures clearly show, that the Baptism of the Holy Ghost or the Holy Ghost came upon them is a distinct and separate event, subsequent to salvation and water baptism.

 

[zone]

You base you everyday walk with God,....yet you judge others who base their everyday walk with God as being part of a circus.
Plain double standard.
At least have the decency to recognize that is what you do.

It would be like me saying:
"Oh, all those internet hermits are souls who were too aggravating for real churches; so they get on the internet to spout their dogmas that no assembly would abide."

Logic would make you admit it, but I know you won't. - (Gee, I wonder why?)

rick....is there anything happening today around the church that is like a Circus?
you know....roaring lions and jumping through hoops and falling down and magic tricks and drunk clowns and stuff?

well, yes. we would have to say so. or, at least we would have to look...and ask about it.

John Crowder toking the Holy Ghost; Patricia King glory cloud rides; Joshua Mills astral travel; Todd Bentley tatty-face-kick deliverance; Mrs. Hinn Holy Ghost enema; etc etc.

now these ppl are clearly extreme and grotesque caricatures....blasphemers. right? or no.
if these people are blasphemers, then when in the line of their apostolic succession and mutual mantel passing do we say STOP?

the thing is - where is the demarcation line? by looking at all this methodically, tracing the history, can't we try to find out how these ppl came to be prominent; why are are believed or approved of?

is it that they seem to have something in common - I TALK TO GOD - (The Trinity) (have these special encounters) AND HE TALKS TO ME, and so i am an authorized representative for him?

where, in history, did what was right.....go wrong?
Mr. Parham was wrong about tongues, and John Wesley was wrong about perfection. ya?

Finney was wrong about everything....wasn't he?

 

[The_highwayman]

Let's see -
Baptize - verb
Baptism - noun

So we are still not talking about the same phrase, really?

This verb phrase was from John the Baptist speaking before Jesus was baptized, before he had his ministry and before he died on the cross, was resurrected and then the Holy Spirit came down on the Day of Pentecost to start the church and the Holy Spirit was given to each person who believed and was baptized.

"[SUP]8 [/SUP]I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” In those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.” Mark 1:8-11

Sounds like Jesus was baptized in the Holy Spirit, right? Except Jesus always had the Holy Spirit, so perhaps the verses are not talking about some baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Or since you prefer the verses in Matt 3 and Luke 3:

"[SUP]17 [/SUP]His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire." Luke 3:17

"His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.” Matt 3:12

These follow the verses you have mentioned, Stephen, in context. Sounds like the fire here is not a very good one to me! Burning off the dross, or the chaff. Which basically is those who are not saved, I think??

So you have John the Baptist saying once, "he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Still no sign of the words "Baptism of the Holy Spirit". Instead, just a future promise that Jesus would send the Holy Spirit after his resurrection and after he went to heaven to be with the Father. Acts 2 also points out the ONE time the tongues as of fire appeared above the disciples' heads.

So is there really a "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" in the Bible? Or just the promise of the coming of the Holy Spirit upon all those who would believe? Jesus and the apostles never use the term once. Jesus was baptized in water, and his Father's approval was shown. John the Baptist says one time 'baptize you in the Holy Spirit" and it is Biblical grounds for not just a major doctrine, but in fact, an entire movement?? A movement which has somehow constructed a second baptism where none appears in the Bible. An unnecessary baptism, since water baptism is what Jesus commanded his followers to do before he ascended.

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," Matt 28;18-19

And once again, this is why I left the Pentecostal movement. Not because of a bad church, or bad people, but because of BAD DOCTRINE!

You do not make an entire movement out of one verse in the Bible. God makes it very clear the things that are important by repeating the same thing over and over. Take the cross. I'm sure we can agree it appears many times. Or repentance. Of course, there are other places where Jesus promises the coming of the Holy Spirit, such as in John.

"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever," John 14:16

“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me." John 15:26

"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." John 16:13

Of course Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, we would not be able to be saved! And every believer has the Holy Spirit from the moment God saves them. But this nebulous "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" which actually does not appear one time, although a verb form does appear once, with qualifiers that render it somewhat confusing in the Luke and Matthew versions.

And to make a whole movement out of this second baptism which is nowhere found in scripture? That is bad hermeneutics. It is the classical example of bad doctrine.

So here are millions and millions of Pentecostals and Charismatics worldwide, basing their entire basic, founding doctrine on a phrase that isn't in the Bible, using instead the verb phrase connected it to the common practice of water baptism (the mikvah, in Jewish terminology) which is what John the Baptist practiced.

No baptism of the Holy Ghost promised to each individual, just a one time event, complete with tongues as of fire in Acts 2. One time, when the church was birthed. And certainly not what Jesus said to his disciples - he never talked about some kind of "baptism in the Holy Spirit."

Of course, if you want to keep on believing bad hermeneutics of a bad doctrine, just go right ahead. I know it is hard when someone challenges the root belief of a whole denomination. Sad though, to think that on the basis of twisting one verse by John the Baptist, before Jesus even started his ministry, you have a whole movement based on something that is not even in the Bible.

But wait, maybe you have experienced it?? Sure, let your experience stand over the Word of God. That is the worst doctrine of all in this movement.

And as for you, Kerry, do you ever use Bible verses, or just vague phrases like "It's all over the New Testament"? If it is then just kindly put up the quote of the passage, ok?

WOW,
Just like clockwork.....and so predictable. Lets refuse it base don verb and noun agreement...

Do you ever proof read your posts? Ya might want to check the number of times you put "I" in your responses.....

 

[RickShafer]

right.
well, history and the Bible disagree with you.
The Acts of the Apostles ended with them.

...

anyways....so can we say Mr. Parham was wrong about tongues?

then we could just move forward.

Not so.
1.) You say the bible ends the gifts of the Holy Spirit. (Show me)
2.) Parham was wrong about the meaning of the revival, he was wrong about the purported use that he thought it was for. - Spreading the gospel through tongues because he thought the time of the end was near, but this misinterpretation doesn't nullify the gift. The gifts of the Holy Spirit never stopped.
3.) Thus the origin of the gifts was fifty days after the ascension.

 

[secularhermit]

Todays Apostleships is a TRICK to emulate those PASSED days... By the way! "Are nuns (MONJAS) giving or leading Roman Catholic service?" (This idea was asked by someone, whose surname is Diamond).

I wish GOD would appear at the entrance of His todays tabernacle (which is not seen here). I wish GOD would speak ALOUD for us to correct and keep leading us as He was in the exodus with Jewish people, in old times.

I wish I see His presence as a light THIS NIGHT and He were a CLOUD to cover US as a shield from false doctrine and misinterpretations but, as far as I understand the Bible, Jesus was predicted by MOSES and, when Jesus came, NO BIGGER doctrine was to be given, HE IS ENOUGH FOR US, His followers or believers; and God gave witness to HIS SON (not for any other man), so I believed what God once said: "LISTEN TO HIM..."

Jesus gave US and example. Being the one He was for His disciples, He gave US the last lesson on MANAGEMENT. He made Himself a SERVANT and washed the feet of 12 apostles. Are the apostles a rule of hierarchy or simply SENDERS, heralds, of that Good New? Jesus came to abolish or criticize the religious system of hierarchy priests made for their ECONOMIC BENEFIT. But I love reading Ezk Chap. 34 compared to Jn Chap. 10.

 

[SarahM777]

As much as I dislike the Pentecostal movement, I think there is one main theme everyone is missing, in the midst of all these threads about exposing each movement. Each movement has a very messed up beginning to some extent. Yet the dirty beginnings only get held against the movement one disagrees with.

If one is a Lutheran then they ignore Luther's anti-semitism. If one is a Calvinist, they forget Calvin's murder. If one is a Pentecostal then they dismiss Parham.

If you're going to invalidate an entire movement because of shady beginnings, then you most likely will have to leave the movement you're in due to shady beginnings too.

I should have been more clear that the only reason for pointing that is that it is the reason for the first split and nothing more should be taken from that. I do apologize for not doing so when I should remember that we need to be clear and that is my fault.

 

[zone]

And again the sign that we were given is JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD. He is alive and well and ruling on His throne. The greatest miracles God stills does is taking men and women who hate Him,want nothing to do with Him,and with but nothing more then a child like faith in Jesus Christ transforms them into sons and daughters of the living God. Cleaning then and purifying them and then transforming them into the image of Christ. It's the simple message of the Gospel.

Such hardness of heart.

???????

surely you jest.

 

[Enow]

This is.

Revelations 21:14

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Thanks for pointing that out, however, just because that mentions the twelve, it does not mean there are no other apostles.

Case in point: just because someone is called an apostle, does not mean they are the twelve mentioned in Revelation 21:14.

Matthew 10:1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; [SUP]3 [/SUP]Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; [SUP]4 [/SUP]Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
Obviously, Judas Iscariot was replaced as an "apostle".

Acts 1:[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, [SUP]25 [/SUP]That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Obviously Matthias is the twelfth apostle for Revelations 21:14

As there are false apostles mentioned by Paul, he did argue the case for his own apostlehsip.

1 Corinthians 1:1Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

1 Corinthians 9:1Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? [SUP]2 [/SUP]If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Mine answer to them that do examine me is this, [SUP]4 [/SUP]Have we not power to eat and to drink? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

I still can't get the complete definition of apostleship that defers from other offices out of these references either. One who is free? One who has seen the Lord? One who has a following to his ministry? One that has power to eat & drink and to lead others?

Obviously, something defers an apostle from another office.

1 Corinthians 12:[SUP]28 [/SUP]And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? [SUP]30 [/SUP]Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

2 Timothy 1:11Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.


One could say that it is one that has seen the Lord Jesus Christ but...

Hebrews 3:1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

I don't think the definition of an Apostle is given to Jesus Christ for seeing Himself in a mirror.

So that is why I doubt anyone knows the actual definition of an apostle. I sure don't.

 

[The_highwayman]

UMM Sorry Rick,

Acts and Pentecost were a transition time. Can't leave that out. Can't leave out the fact that even those who founded the modern Pentecostal movement believed that the gifts were being RESTORED. You would be hard pressed to find those at that time who said they continued.

To say that some within the churches that are liturgical don't have emotions in their worship is wrong. (You haven't met my mom)

Sarah,
The difference between me and all the history about the movements you posted is that I don't believe the gifts ever stopped or had to be restored.

 

[zone]

narrow mind? these gift based churches have made a mockery of the church of God and his kingdom.

The spread confusion. The spread a false hope (most of the healing are fake and have been proven to be)

Lets see them go to the hopitals and heal people. Then you will see the work of God. But no. They wont.. why? They have no power.

Mike Bickle of IHOP says he does not allow fake manifestations of the Holy Spirit up on the platform, but “I will allow the fake in the room because I so believe in the genuine.”

Bickle states, “Most places that I’ve been the majority of the manifestations are not caused by the Holy Spirit”…. “but the problem is, it’s not all fake and the genuine is in our midst, and I will allow a whole lot of hamburger helper to allow the genuine to take place. I will not promote it but I will allow it.”

Mike Bickle will allow fake manifestations “to allow the genuine to take place”? | My Word Like Fire

now, Mike Bickle is a big name. that's IHOP.

so if he says "Most places that I’ve been the majority of the manifestations are not caused by the Holy Spirit", what are they caused by?

he claims to know the difference.
does he believe in demons?
does he worry about blasphemy?
as a so-called pastor, should he be "allowing" anything that he knows is not caused by the Holy Spirit, yet is attributed to Him?

.....

if what he says is true....even to some degree, should i plan to get involved in something like this:

Coming Up Soon
Immerse Program
Releasing harp and bowl prophetic worship
November 9–16, 2013

International House of Prayer

??

...

or this?:

FIRE IN THE NIGHT

Fire in the Night is a residential internship joined to the NightWatch, the faithful musicians and intercessors who lead the watch on the wall of intercession between the hours of midnight and 6:00am.

For too long the night has been infamous for spiritual darkness. We believe that the night belongs to the Lord. While most people are sleeping and while many deeds of darkness are committed, Fire in the Night interns cry out in prayer for justice and revival to break in on the earth, and are involved in outreaches and ministering to others in the power of the Holy Spirit.

IHOP

...

he said clearly “Most places that I’ve been the majority of the manifestations are not caused by the Holy Spirit”

 

[RickShafer]

???????

surely you jest.

Wrong tie in.
Wasn't aimed at Sarah.

 

[RickShafer]

This is.

Revelations 21:14

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Is 'Mattias' or 'Paul' on the twelfth foundation?

 

[zone]

Also, neither Charles Parham, nor William Seymour had anything to do with the gifts 'reappearing'.
- From the beginning of the church all of those gifts were in effect up until and past those revivals.
- - If you read the history of the church you will see it.

would you be kind enough to post the history of the church from your sources?
the one that shows all the gifts "in effect"?

it's better if you offer something you approve of to work with.