The Place of Oral Tradition
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It makes sense if you think about it just a little bit.
You said, "the apocryphal books are not sacred scripture because they contain historical and doctrinal errors...for example jesus condemned a saying from the book of sirach..."
Jesus also said that "it is not what goes into your mouth that defiles you, but what comes out of it..."
Ipso facto, according to your logic that would mean a few more canonical OT books will also need to be tossed out...
Right? (since that would essentially constitute Jesus condemning the OT dietary restrictions ... get it? Maybe you won't -- since that would require that you face up to a huge number of logical inconsistencies in your present theological philosophy. No biggie, just thought I would point it out for the benefit of others here who might otherwise get the impression that you are making a valid point)
You said, "the apocryphal books are not sacred scripture because they contain historical and doctrinal errors...for example jesus condemned a saying from the book of sirach..."
Jesus also said that "it is not what goes into your mouth that defiles you, but what comes out of it..."
Ipso facto, according to your logic that would mean a few more canonical OT books will also need to be tossed out...
Right? (since that would essentially constitute Jesus condemning the OT dietary restrictions ... get it? Maybe you won't -- since that would require that you face up to a huge number of logical inconsistencies in your present theological philosophy. No biggie, just thought I would point it out for the benefit of others here who might otherwise get the impression that you are making a valid point)
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R
all the evidence the bereans needed that jesus is the messiah and the son of God was found in the old testament scriptures...they didn't need to rely on 'oral tradition' from anyone...
it says they searched the scriptures to find out if what paul said was true...it doesn't say they just trusted his apostolic authority...
it says they searched the scriptures to find out if what paul said was true...it doesn't say they just trusted his apostolic authority...
R
actually luther quoted from hebrews and james and revelation in his smalcald articles and small and large catechisms...these are hardly the actions of someone who wanted to remove those books from the bible...
the apocryphal books were never part of scripture in the first place...as jerome recognized over 1,000 years before your bogeyman luther came along...
the apocryphal books were never part of scripture in the first place...as jerome recognized over 1,000 years before your bogeyman luther came along...
R
no you don't...but seeing that your arguments are so predictable i know what you -do- have...
what you have is a set of new testament passages that you are going to argue are quotations of or allusions to your apocryphal books...and on that basis you are going to argue that your apocryphal books belong in the canon but were taken out by jews and protestants...
you can go ahead and post that stuff if you want...but in response i will point out passages where the new testament authors quoted from the writings of pagan philosophers...and i will rhetorically ask why -your- church removed -those- writings...
what you have is a set of new testament passages that you are going to argue are quotations of or allusions to your apocryphal books...and on that basis you are going to argue that your apocryphal books belong in the canon but were taken out by jews and protestants...
you can go ahead and post that stuff if you want...but in response i will point out passages where the new testament authors quoted from the writings of pagan philosophers...and i will rhetorically ask why -your- church removed -those- writings...
So... did they say they found what they were looking for when they searched the scriptures for "all the evidence the bereans needed that jesus is the messiah and the son of God"?
If so, I would like to know what OT verses supported that. If not... well, maybe they just did like most folks and fell back on oral tradition.
If so, I would like to know what OT verses supported that. If not... well, maybe they just did like most folks and fell back on oral tradition.
I assumed nothing and nothing I said implies such (you however...assume much to the point of presumptuousness).
Many individuals 'rejected' many of the early canonical books. Were it up to 'individuals' we would have a very small Bible... or a much much larger one.
The opinion of individuals in this matter is a red herring.
Many individuals 'rejected' many of the early canonical books. Were it up to 'individuals' we would have a very small Bible... or a much much larger one.
The opinion of individuals in this matter is a red herring.
R
now you are basically arguing that jesus contradicted leviticus...and in that case you would have to reject one or the other to be logically consistent...
i just thought i would point that out for the benefit of others here who might otherwise get the impression that you actually have any respect for the bible...
i just thought i would point that out for the benefit of others here who might otherwise get the impression that you actually have any respect for the bible...
R
it says they examined the scriptures to verify paul's teaching...that means the scriptures are the standard by which they tested even the teaching of an apostle...so the authority of scripture is -superior- to the authority of an apostle...or their so called successors...
you don't grade a student's paper based on another student's paper...you grade a student's paper according to the answer key!
you don't grade a student's paper based on another student's paper...you grade a student's paper according to the answer key!
R
if the books were already in question before the time of constantine then it is clear that they weren't 'in the bible for about a thousand years' already...they were -always- dubious and opinions varied on their authenticity...nobody attempted to force them into the canon by fiat until much later...
R
i pointed out that jesus openly contradicted the book of sirach...
you responded by insinuating that jesus must have also contradicted leviticus...a notion that i reject...
you made an argument bringing the agreement between the gospels and leviticus into question and now you are attempting to deny it...
you responded by insinuating that jesus must have also contradicted leviticus...a notion that i reject...
you made an argument bringing the agreement between the gospels and leviticus into question and now you are attempting to deny it...
Many books accepted today were in question long before Constantine.
Maybe you ought to investigate the Muratorian Canon history and the early disputes. Some believed even that the Gospel of John was heresy. If early 'dispute' is your criteria the Bible would be MUCH smaller than it is today.
My 1000 year comment follows the commonly accepted timeline and history.
Just curious, do you accept the Book of revelation?
Maybe you ought to investigate the Muratorian Canon history and the early disputes. Some believed even that the Gospel of John was heresy. If early 'dispute' is your criteria the Bible would be MUCH smaller than it is today.
My 1000 year comment follows the commonly accepted timeline and history.
Just curious, do you accept the Book of revelation?