The Pope: Biblical Holy Man or A Bunch of Hogwash?

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Oct 29, 2013
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#1
I've heard it both ways and I'm just curious what everyone thinks. Some say that when Jesus said He was building his Church upon "This Rock", he was referring to Peter and thus making him the first Pope. Then again, as many times as I've opened a Bible, I feel like I should've seen the word Pope in there somewhere if I was supposed to bow to this guy and kiss his ring like a mafia don or something.
 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
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#2
Jesus refers to himself as the rock, he also says he is the church... To have a pope in my opinion is a form of idolatry that makes the Gospel easier for some people to accept... Because in a pope you get rules you have to follow to gain salvation... And that makes a person more secure in what they believe their salvation is... When you accept it is in Jesus alone, you are left in a state of faith and only faith... Which is extremely scary...
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
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#3
Jesus refers to himself as the rock, he also says he is the church... To have a pope in my opinion is a form of idolatry that makes the Gospel easier for some people to accept... Because in a pope you get rules you have to follow to gain salvation... And that makes a person more secure in what they believe their salvation is... When you accept it is in Jesus alone, you are left in a state of faith and only faith... Which is extremely scary...
That's right and the 'gospel offered is not the Gospel but rather a mixture of grace and works with an added sprinkle of paganism.
 

kingerik

Senior Member
Sep 25, 2013
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#4
Peter was the first pope, so yes, it is biblical...but as we go through history and the catholic church is distorted and becomes idolatrous. Now, the catholic church is false doctrine church now.
 
A

Anonimous

Guest
#5
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[TD="width: 947"][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1] “He asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”. [Matthew 16:13 – 20]

The Rock upon which Jesus established His church is not Peter. The Rock is what Peter confessed concerning Jesus and who is was. "Thou art the Christ (Messiah). The Son of the Living God." The church could not be build upon a flawed and sinful man. Peter was blessed and went on to do great things, but he was still just a man.
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Oct 14, 2013
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#6
Peter nor Jesus was the Rock

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and
upon this rock I will build my church;

One must always read the verses before, the Rock is God the Father who revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Son of the Living God ,

Jesus is the Chief corner stone


Jesus is saying upon God He will build the Church
 
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Oct 14, 2013
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#7
I've heard it both ways and I'm just curious what everyone thinks. Some say that when Jesus said He was building his Church upon "This Rock", he was referring to Peter and thus making him the first Pope. Then again, as many times as I've opened a Bible, I feel like I should've seen the word Pope in there somewhere if I was supposed to bow to this guy and kiss his ring like a mafia don or something.
Matthew 23

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

[video=youtube;-IyR6RZ49Co]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-IyR6RZ49Co[/video]
 
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Oct 14, 2013
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#8
Peter was the first pope, so yes, it is biblical...but as we go through history and the catholic church is distorted and becomes idolatrous. Now, the catholic church is false doctrine church now.

Peter was not the first pope
 
N

nathan3

Guest
#9
Christ is the Rock. Even God is called Rock, in Deuteronomy 32. There was a good study done by E.W.Bullinger on this. His view is the proper way to read it is Christ, is this rock, He was referring to that Peter would build on. I posted it here before, I should look it up here in the forums.
 
Oct 14, 2013
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#10
Christ is the Rock. Even God is called Rock, in Deuteronomy 32. There was a good study done by E.W.Bullinger on this. His view is the proper way to read it is Christ, is this rock, He was referring to that Peter would build on. I posted it here before, I should look it up here in the forums.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church;This rock refering to someone else Which is God the Father in this Case ( context )

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon ME I will build my church; this does not make sense
 
N

nathan3

Guest
#11
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church;This rock refering to someone else Which is God the Father in this Case ( context )

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon ME I will build my church; this does not make sense
I will get the study.
 
Oct 14, 2013
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#12
The bible does call Jesus a Rock also, but when Jesus was talking to Peter He was refering to the Father


[h=3]1 Corinthians 10[/h]King James Version (KJV)

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
 
N

nathan3

Guest
#14
"Thou Art Peter"
(Matthew 16:18)
This Is Appendix 147 From The Companion Bible.

As explained in the notes, the two Greek words petros and petra are quite distinct, the former being masculine gender, and the latter feminine. The latter denotes a rock or cliff, in situ, firm and immovable. The former denotes a fragment of it, which one traveller may move with his foot in one direction and another may throw in another. This former word petros is the Greek translation a kephas, a stone, which was Peter's name in Aramaic, as was his appellative "Barjona" (John 1:42). See Appendix 94. III. 3.

It is remarkable that there is only one other instance (Luke 22:34) in which our Lord addressed him as "Peter"; but, in all other cases, by his fore-name "Simon", reminding him of what he was before his call, and of the characteristics of his human nature. In that other instance it is used in connection with the coming exhibition of his weakness, in the prediction of his denial of the Lord.

There is thus a special significance in the use of the word "Peter" in Matthew 16:18. It was the name connected with his commission and apostleship; another commission being about to be committed to him.

It was not Peter, the man, who would be the foundation, for, as we have said, petra is feminine, and must refer to a feminine noun expressed or implied. That noun could hardly be any other than homologia, which means a confession; and it was Peter's confession that was the one subject of the Father's revelation and the Son's confirmation.

Moreover, in 1 Corinthians 3:11 it has once for all been declared by the Holy Spirit that "OTHER foundation can no man lay than that IS LAID, which is JESUS CHRIST".

The earliest known reference to Matthew 16:18 is found in ORIGEN'S Commentary (A.D. 186-253), which is older than any extant Greek manuscript. He says :
"If we also say the same as Peter, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God', not by the instruction of flesh and blood, but by the illumination of the heavenly Father in our hearts, we ourselves become the same thing as Peter.
"If you should think that the whole Church was built by God only on that one, Peter, what will you say of John ... or each of the apostles?"1

This is conclusive as to the interpretation. But there are other and later references to these words by AUGUSTINE (A.D. 378), and JEROME (A.D. 305), alike older than any Greek Manuscripts now extant.

JEROME wrote thus in his exposition (Benedictine ed.) :
"And I tell thee, that thou has said to Me, 'Thou art the Christ', etc., and I tell thee that thou art Peter, and on this rock, etc."2
AUGUSTINE wrote in his Retractationes (Benedictine ed., vol. i, p. 33) :
"I have somewhere said, concerning the apostle Peter, that the Church was founded on him, as a petra, or rock; but I know that I have since very often explained what our Lord said to signify on Him Whom Peter confessed; but between these two opinions, let the reader choose that which is the more probable."3

In AUGUSTINE'S Sermon In die Pentecostis (Benedictine ed., tom. v. p. 1097; also Pusey's Translation, Sermons on the New Testament, vol. i. p. 215), he explains the reason for this retractation in a paraphrastic citation of the whole context :-

"When our Lord had asked His disciples who men said that He was, and when, in reporting the opinions of others, they had said that some said He was John, some Elijah, others Jeremiah or one of the prophets, He said to them : 'But ye, Who do ye say that I am?' Peter (one alone for the rest, one for all) answered, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' This, most excellently, most truly spoken, was deservedly rewarded with this reply : 'Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah, because flesh and blood revealed not this to thee, but My Father Who is in heaven; and I tell thee that thou hast said' : (hast said, observe, hast made confession unto Me : receive therefore the benediction) : 'and I tell thee that thou art Peter; and on this rock I will build My church.'"4

Some have conjectured from these words "tu dixisti" (thou hast said it) that AUGUSTINE and JEROME must have had in the Manuscripts from which they translated six letters, which they divided into two words "SU EIPS"5, taking EIPS as an abbreviation of EIPAS ( = thou hast said).

There must have been another division of the same six letters into three words, which was current even then, for both these Fathers add "SU EI PETROS" = thou art Peter; taking the same "PS" as an abbreviation of PETROS.

It is evident, however, that these Fathers give only a paraphrase; and do not profess to be giving an exact quotation.

One thing, however, is certain, and that is our only point in this Appendix, videlicet, that the earliest references made to this passage disclaim all idea of its having any reference to the apostle Peter, but only to HIM Who was the subject of Peter's confession.

NOTES

1 ei de epi ton hena ekeinon Petron nomizeis hupo tou Theou okiodomeisthai ten pasan ekklesian monon, ti oun phesais peri Ioannou, tou tes brontes, e hekastou ton apostolon.

2 "Quid est quod ait? Et ego dico tibi tu mihi dixisti (tu es Christus filius Dei vivi); et ego dico tibi quia TU mihi dixisti (tu es Christus filius Dei vivi); et ego dico tibi (non sermone casso et nullum habenti opus, sed dico tibi, quia meum dixisse, fecisse est) quia tu es Petrus; et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam."

3 "Dixi in quodam loco de apostolo Petro, quod in illo, quasi in petra, fundata sit ecclesia; sed scio me postea saepissime sic exposuisse quod a Domino dictum est, ut super hunc intelligetur quem confessus est Petrus : horum autem duarum sententiarum quae sit probabilior, eligat lector." (Italics, ours.)

4 "Cum interrogasset ipse Dominus discipulos suos, quis ab hominibus diceretur, et aliorum opiniones recolendo dixissent; quod alii eum dicerent Ioannem, alii Eliam, alii Ieremiam, aut unum ex prophetis, ait illis, 'Vos autem quem Me esse dictis?' Et Petrus, unus pro ceteris, unus pro omnibus, 'Tu es, inquit, Christus filius Dei vivi.' Hoc, optime, veracissime, merito tale responsum accipere meruit : 'Beatus es, Simon Bar Ionae, quia non tibi revelavit caro et sanguis, sed Pater Meus qui in coelis est : et Ego dico tibi, quia tu dixisti ' : Mihi dixisti audi; dedisti confessionem. Recipe benedictionem ergo : 'Et dico tibi, Tu es Petrus-et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam Meam'".

5 It will be seen from Appendix 94. V. i. 3 that in the Greek manuscripts there was no division between the letters or words until the ninth century.
 
Oct 14, 2013
4,750
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#15
"Thou Art Peter"
(Matthew 16:18)
This Is Appendix 147 From The Companion Bible.

As explained in the notes, the two Greek words petros and petra are quite distinct, the former being masculine gender, and the latter feminine. The latter denotes a rock or cliff, in situ, firm and immovable. The former denotes a fragment of it, which one traveller may move with his foot in one direction and another may throw in another. This former word petros is the Greek translation a kephas, a stone, which was Peter's name in Aramaic, as was his appellative "Barjona" (John 1:42). See Appendix 94. III. 3.

It is remarkable that there is only one other instance (Luke 22:34) in which our Lord addressed him as "Peter"; but, in all other cases, by his fore-name "Simon", reminding him of what he was before his call, and of the characteristics of his human nature. In that other instance it is used in connection with the coming exhibition of his weakness, in the prediction of his denial of the Lord.

There is thus a special significance in the use of the word "Peter" in Matthew 16:18. It was the name connected with his commission and apostleship; another commission being about to be committed to him.

It was not Peter, the man, who would be the foundation, for, as we have said, petra is feminine, and must refer to a feminine noun expressed or implied. That noun could hardly be any other than homologia, which means a confession; and it was Peter's confession that was the one subject of the Father's revelation and the Son's confirmation.

Moreover, in 1 Corinthians 3:11 it has once for all been declared by the Holy Spirit that "OTHER foundation can no man lay than that IS LAID, which is JESUS CHRIST".

The earliest known reference to Matthew 16:18 is found in ORIGEN'S Commentary (A.D. 186-253), which is older than any extant Greek manuscript. He says :
"If we also say the same as Peter, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God', not by the instruction of flesh and blood, but by the illumination of the heavenly Father in our hearts, we ourselves become the same thing as Peter.
"If you should think that the whole Church was built by God only on that one, Peter, what will you say of John ... or each of the apostles?"1

This is conclusive as to the interpretation. But there are other and later references to these words by AUGUSTINE (A.D. 378), and JEROME (A.D. 305), alike older than any Greek Manuscripts now extant.

JEROME wrote thus in his exposition (Benedictine ed.) :
"And I tell thee, that thou has said to Me, 'Thou art the Christ', etc., and I tell thee that thou art Peter, and on this rock, etc."2
AUGUSTINE wrote in his Retractationes (Benedictine ed., vol. i, p. 33) :
"I have somewhere said, concerning the apostle Peter, that the Church was founded on him, as a petra, or rock; but I know that I have since very often explained what our Lord said to signify on Him Whom Peter confessed; but between these two opinions, let the reader choose that which is the more probable."3

In AUGUSTINE'S Sermon In die Pentecostis (Benedictine ed., tom. v. p. 1097; also Pusey's Translation, Sermons on the New Testament, vol. i. p. 215), he explains the reason for this retractation in a paraphrastic citation of the whole context :-

"When our Lord had asked His disciples who men said that He was, and when, in reporting the opinions of others, they had said that some said He was John, some Elijah, others Jeremiah or one of the prophets, He said to them : 'But ye, Who do ye say that I am?' Peter (one alone for the rest, one for all) answered, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' This, most excellently, most truly spoken, was deservedly rewarded with this reply : 'Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah, because flesh and blood revealed not this to thee, but My Father Who is in heaven; and I tell thee that thou hast said' : (hast said, observe, hast made confession unto Me : receive therefore the benediction) : 'and I tell thee that thou art Peter; and on this rock I will build My church.'"4

Some have conjectured from these words "tu dixisti" (thou hast said it) that AUGUSTINE and JEROME must have had in the Manuscripts from which they translated six letters, which they divided into two words "SU EIPS"5, taking EIPS as an abbreviation of EIPAS ( = thou hast said).

There must have been another division of the same six letters into three words, which was current even then, for both these Fathers add "SU EI PETROS" = thou art Peter; taking the same "PS" as an abbreviation of PETROS.

It is evident, however, that these Fathers give only a paraphrase; and do not profess to be giving an exact quotation.

One thing, however, is certain, and that is our only point in this Appendix, videlicet, that the earliest references made to this passage disclaim all idea of its having any reference to the apostle Peter, but only to HIM Who was the subject of Peter's confession.

NOTES

1 ei de epi ton hena ekeinon Petron nomizeis hupo tou Theou okiodomeisthai ten pasan ekklesian monon, ti oun phesais peri Ioannou, tou tes brontes, e hekastou ton apostolon.

2 "Quid est quod ait? Et ego dico tibi tu mihi dixisti (tu es Christus filius Dei vivi); et ego dico tibi quia TU mihi dixisti (tu es Christus filius Dei vivi); et ego dico tibi (non sermone casso et nullum habenti opus, sed dico tibi, quia meum dixisse, fecisse est) quia tu es Petrus; et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam."

3 "Dixi in quodam loco de apostolo Petro, quod in illo, quasi in petra, fundata sit ecclesia; sed scio me postea saepissime sic exposuisse quod a Domino dictum est, ut super hunc intelligetur quem confessus est Petrus : horum autem duarum sententiarum quae sit probabilior, eligat lector." (Italics, ours.)

4 "Cum interrogasset ipse Dominus discipulos suos, quis ab hominibus diceretur, et aliorum opiniones recolendo dixissent; quod alii eum dicerent Ioannem, alii Eliam, alii Ieremiam, aut unum ex prophetis, ait illis, 'Vos autem quem Me esse dictis?' Et Petrus, unus pro ceteris, unus pro omnibus, 'Tu es, inquit, Christus filius Dei vivi.' Hoc, optime, veracissime, merito tale responsum accipere meruit : 'Beatus es, Simon Bar Ionae, quia non tibi revelavit caro et sanguis, sed Pater Meus qui in coelis est : et Ego dico tibi, quia tu dixisti ' : Mihi dixisti audi; dedisti confessionem. Recipe benedictionem ergo : 'Et dico tibi, Tu es Petrus-et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam Meam'".

5 It will be seen from Appendix 94. V. i. 3 that in the Greek manuscripts there was no division between the letters or words until the ninth century.

Do you know how to build a house and the steps taken

all that greek and most people dont even know what they are saying lets stick to english ok


Was or why not were the other diciples name change ?

What about John whom Jesus loved ?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,672
13,131
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#16
do Catholics realize that it was Paul, not Peter, who founded the church in Rome?

or more precisely, it was gentiles who had heard the gospel from Paul that 'founded' it -


"
I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established"
(Romans 1:11)

"
Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation"
(Romans 15:20).

and Peter, being the apostle to the Jews, could not have had anything to do with it. there are 1,000 problems with Catholic teachings, not the least of which that Christ alone is the only mediator between God and man so that the office of 'pope' as defined is blatant heresy --

but i don't see it as being particularly constructive to go through some huge list of accusations against an entity that does overall preach the gospel and do good works. suffice it to say that i think the Lord will have some things to say about all that when He returns, and we ought to look to the Word, not to man, to establish sound doctrine.

i believe there are true Christian brothers and sisters that identify with the Catholic church, and i don't want to destroy their faith by attacking the Catholic church as a whole - but i know too, there is much false teaching & 'error of Balaam' going on in the structure & doctrines of Rome.

i'm sure other people (including, ha, posts above mine) will do a fine job of shining the light of truth on it.

 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,672
13,131
113
#17
short version of study a few posts up ^^

"thou art Peter" == a word meaning 'little rock' or 'piece of a rock;' the word one would use to describe a pebble or a stone not larger than one could carry.

".. upon this rock .. " == a word meaning 'big rock' or 'mass of rock;' the word one would use to describe a boulder or a cliff face, etc. - something you could actually use as a foundation for a literal building.
 
Nov 30, 2012
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#18
Not shockingly, I believe the Pope is the Apostolic successor to Peter.
 
Oct 14, 2013
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#19
short version of study a few posts up ^^

"thou art Peter" == a word meaning 'little rock' or 'piece of a rock;' the word one would use to describe a pebble or a stone not larger than one could carry.
,
".. upon this rock .. " == a word meaning 'big rock' or 'mass of rock;' the word one would use to describe a boulder or a cliff face, etc. - something you could actually use as a foundation for a literal building.
1Peter 2

4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner