The proper interpretation of Scriptures

graceNpeace · Mar 12, 2018

Actually the known world at this time was MUCH larger than this.
All of Europe as we now know was known at this time - the Roman Empire had already extended to Britain.
Trading was taking place with China at this time, and Alexander the Great had previously conquered an empire as far east as the Indus River (in present day Pakistan).
Trading was also taking place with Africa from locations as far south as central Africa across land and even further south along the eastern seaboard probably as far south as today's Mocambique by sea.

Even in NT times the "world" was a VERY big place!

Angela53510 · Mar 12, 2018

Noose said:

What a hoot! Are you actually saying that the civilizations in China and North, Central and South America didn’t exist because the Bible doesn’t talk about them?

Tell me you are not that ignorant!! Seriously, this is the dumbest thing I have read in a long time, and in the BDF that is saying a lot!

I have been to the pyramids at Teotihuacan in central Mexico, and the ones on the Yucatan Pennisula. The ones at Teotihuacan are contempory with the time of Jesus. You need to get out more. Those pyramids are HUGE! I walked up the Pyramid of the Sun and the Pyramid of the Moon north of Mexico City when I was a teenager. They are obviously ancient, and the written word is everywhere there. The ones in Chichen Itza were smaller, but had amazing decorations, and an unbelievable knowledge of astronomy. On summer solstice, the sun shines on the King’s pyramid, through a hole at the top of the smaller Queen’s Pyramid, and it gradually illuminates a snake, from top to bottom, that is carved in stone, coming down next to the stairs. Now, the Chichen Itza ones were built much after the time of Christ. But there are much earlier artificats there, and in many other places in Mexico.

In fact, the first pyramids in Mexico were built between 1000-400 BC. And small groups of hunter-gatherers don’t built huge pyramids. Now, there was a lot of Satanic practices in those cultures, human sacrifices and so forth, I’m not praising their buildings because they were moral or ethical or godly people. But, they did exist.

https://www.history.com/topics/ancient-history/pyramids-in-latin-america

As for China! Most estimates place the first dynasty from 2600 - 1600 BC. It was a thriving civilization by the time of Christ.

Timeline of Chinese History and Dynasties | Asia for Educators | Columbia University

The reason these civilizations did not appear in the Bible, is because they had nothing to do with the unfolding of God’s salvation through Jesus Christ, the son of Abraham, the son of David. Not because they didn’t exist!

PaulCyp1 · Mar 12, 2018

Jesus ensured that His followers would always have access to accurate interpretation of scripture by founding ONE Church, stating that it was to remain ONE, and telling those He had appointed as leaders of that ONE Church, "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "He who hears you hears Me". That ONE Church compiled the Holy Bible from its own writings, and is the sole authoritative interpreter of its own book. Which is why that ONE Church remains ONE after 2,000 years, while all others have fragmented into numerous conflicting denominations over their conflicting scriptural interpretations.

Angela53510 · Mar 12, 2018

As far as the OP, I have always assumed that Jesus actually saw all the civilizations at the same time. Perhaps a spiritual “Google Earth?” Jesus was divine, Satan was a fallen angelic being, who knows what powers even Satan had?

But, I am also willing to accept the possibility that Jesus was only shown the kingdoms that were nearby and KNOWN to be the world. IE the known world. NET gives an interesting slant on it. (Although “flash” doesn’t seem to be there in the Greek, I admit!) I guess ἐν στιγμῇ χρόνου ( en stigme chronou) means “in a moment in time!” So, perhaps “flash” is taking a bit of creative liberty with the Greek text?

“Then the devil led him up to a high place and showed him in a flash all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “To you I will grant this whole realm—and the glory that goes along with it, for it has been relinquished to me, and I can give it to anyone I wish. 7 So then, if you will worship me, all this will be yours.” 8 Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You are to worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’” Luke 4:5-8
Καὶ ἀναγαγὼν [a]αὐτὸν ἔδειξεν αὐτῷ πάσας τὰς βασιλείας τῆς οἰκουμένης ἐν στιγμῇ χρόνου·6 καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ διάβολος· Σοὶ δώσω τὴν ἐξουσίαν ταύτην ἅπασαν καὶ τὴν δόξαν αὐτῶν, ὅτι ἐμοὶ παραδέδοται καὶ ᾧ [b]ἂν θέλω δίδωμι αὐτήν· 7 σὺ οὖν ἐὰν προσκυνήσῃς ἐνώπιον ἐμοῦ, ἔσται σοῦ πᾶσα. 8 καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς [c]ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ· Γέγραπται· [d]Κύριον τὸν θεόν σου προσκυνήσεις καὶ αὐτῷ μόνῳ λατρεύσεις. Luke 4:5-8 Greek SBL

But the Greek doesn’t actually use the words “kingdoms of the world” Instead, it uses πάσας τὰς βασιλείας (all the kingdoms) with the word οἰκουμένης or oiukoumenes, meaning “the inhabited world.” Of course, it could just have been the writer’s way of saying the known world. But still, “inhabited world” should mean ALL the people who inhabit ALL the world. All the kingdoms. (In both the later Byzantine manuscripts, and the earlier, more reliable texts. So, I guess KJV and most modern versions got this wrong. Nothing like creating a wrong tradition and everyone else feels compelled to use it.

So, is this something we need to resolve right now, or can we trust God, that whether he saw ALL the inhabited world, or all the KNOWN inhabited world?

I trust God that it doesn’t really matter whether you make this into some kind of imaginative science fiction scenerio, like I like to come up with, or simply spiritual, or in fact literal, the point is that Jesus was tempted by the god of this world to rule over the kingdoms of the inhabited world.

And he resisted the tempation by quoting Scripture (as with the other 2 temptations!). The lesson to learn, isn’t how much Satan showed him, but rather, how much Jesus resisted the devil, and for us, that he did not give in, making him sinless, AND that he has shown us the way out of temptation.

Oh yes, the words εις ορος υψηλον or a high mountain don’t appear in the SBL Greek text, in Luke 4, only the corrupted Stephanus. Another spurious text people won’t let go off. Comparing it Matt 4:8, it appears that the Luke text has been conflated in the later corrupted manuscripts in the Luke 4 recounting of this incident.

“[FONT=&quot]Πάλιν παραλαμβάνει αὐτὸν ὁ διάβολος εἰς ὄρος ὑψηλὸν λίαν, καὶ δείκνυσιν αὐτῷ πάσας τὰς βασιλείας τοῦ κόσμου καὶ τὴν δόξαν αὐτῶν[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” Matt[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 4:8[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
The only difference between Matt 4:8 and Luke 4:5 is that Matthew adds λιαν “lian” (exceedingly) and changes en to eis - εις ορος υψηλον λιαν. Both the earlier Greek manuscripts and the later corrupted versions are the same. Which leads me to wonder why the NET Bible conflates the Luke text to read in a high mountain. Manuscript issues are becoming more and more interesting to me. Just ignore this part, if you are not interested. [/FONT]

Deade · Mar 12, 2018

trofimus said:

Now for hills: “The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness” (Psalms 72:3). This shows how mountains and hills will affect their people.

Deade · Mar 12, 2018

Daniel 2:36: Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: And the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king”

Daniel 2:43,44: "And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

MOUNTAIN = KINGDOM

garee · Mar 12, 2018

CS1 said:

It would appear it was what is called historical true parable used to preach the gospel, the hidden message woven throughout the scriptures .

The father of lies uses the things seen as normative walking by sight. I will give to the Son of man as if it belongs to the father of lies to begin with . Christ said as it is written not as we see it or observe it. In that way experience is not the validator of the spiritual things not seen (faith)

While Christ by a law of faith describes the context as the descriptive as that not seen by a work of His faith with it representing the work. Using it as it is written 3 times in Mathew making that seen to no effect .Three denotes the end of a matter in parables.

garee · Mar 12, 2018

I think he still has the power. Even though God is no longer adding to His word now that we have the whole will of God as it is written with no law missing by which we could know him more adequately. Satan would give the illusion he is still adding.... through signs and lying wonders

Satan is allowed to bring the same kind of signs and lying wonders called out of the body experience that the Son of man received in Mathew 4 and will continue right up until the end, the last day . Which is really brinig lying information in.Christ never moved one inch.

2Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and "lying wonders",

With the word lying wonders a false source of faith not coming from Christ but rather coming from the deceptive wonder..

Many today claim out of the body experiences. today One kind is shown by the idea of being slain in the spirit "falling back" or backward . Falling back indicate a person is under the judgement of God . The accuser of the brethren in that way would seem to be accredited for leading men away from it as is written. Its is another of the lying wonders that attempts to make Christ's faith, that works in us to both will and do his good pleasure without effect.

Angela53510 · Mar 12, 2018

Lucy-Pevensie said:

Kingdoms of the INHABITED world, in Luke 4, and “Kingdoms of the world,” in Matt 4. That is the Greek, and yet I haven’t found a version which has this in Luke 4. Too much harmonizing. I think we can conclude that Luke had a much bigger Greek vocabulary, than Matthew, which is why there is a difference.

I just finished Acts, and before that Luke in Greek. I was so glad to get to John, (knew MOST of the words) after Luke, and Romans after Acts, which was still so miuch simpler than Acts. Luke was a Greek physician, Matthew a Jewish tax collector. These are differences that really come through in the Greek, but not at all in English.

I think you are being over allegorical in your post. Luke certainly tells us they were really kingdoms, inhabited by real people. Not symbolic for authority.

Bladerunner · Mar 12, 2018

trofimus said:

I believe it to be #1. Why because it is God's Words...Who are we to to second guess what God means?????He tells us the Foundations of the WORLD DO NOT MOVE.... There was a Giant tree that everyone in the world could see. When He comes back for the 2nd Advent, ALL will see HIM...

HOW??????? if the world is a GLOBE....plus the fact is at that time,,,, CNN will probably be very defunct.

Rem this...Once you start symbolyzing God's word,,,then anything goes.

"(it was not any mountain, but the ancient author was unable to describe it better)". The Author unable to understand????come on. The only part of that sentence or any other the author writes down is the style of writing... This can be seen to a greater degree in the Synoptic Gospels.

The verse in Mat 4:8 ...as stated by GOD..."Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;".

Keep in mind that Matthew was a bean counter (census taker for the Roman army thus He took shorthand). Which is why, His gospel is so much longer than the others.? To point,,,He was an educated (as educated as one could get back then) Man.

Would Matthew be unable to describe it any Better????????????

Now I must admit, that when one goes down the road to symbolize this verse, it meaning(s) could number the stars in heaven. Just look to this forum for the number of symbolized versions.

graceNpeace · Mar 12, 2018

Bladerunner said:

I believe it to be #1. Why because it is God's Words...Who are we to to second guess what God means?????He tells us the Foundations of the WORLD DO NOT MOVE.... There was a Giant tree that everyone in the world could see. When He comes back for the 2nd Advent, ALL will see HIM...

HOW??????? if the world is a GLOBE....plus the fact is at that time,,,, CNN will probably be very defunct.

Rem this...Once you start symbolyzing God's word,,,then anything goes.

"(it was not any mountain, but the ancient author was unable to describe it better)". The Author unable to understand????come on. The only part of that sentence or any other the author writes down is the style of writing... This can be seen to a greater degree in the Synoptic Gospels.

The verse in Mat 4:8 ...as stated by GOD..."Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;".

Keep in mind that Matthew was a bean counter (census taker for the Roman army thus He took shorthand). Which is why, His gospel is so much longer than the others.? To point,,,He was an educated (as educated as one could get back then) Man.

Would Matthew be unable to describe it any Better????????????

Now I must admit, that when one goes down the road to symbolize this verse, it meaning(s) could number the stars in heaven. Just look to this forum for the number of symbolized versions.

Well, so much for rational thought then...

garee · Mar 12, 2018

We should be careful but not throw out the spiritual meaning of the parables as if they clouded the pure water of the word.

There are real kingdoms inhabited by real people that are used as shadows of the the true eternal not seen . Without parables in that way Christ the Holy Spirit of God spoke not . Hiding the spirutl understanding to those with no faith .( natural unconverted man)

Parables can be historical true as that seen as well as spiritually true and used as a metaphor to present the gospel at the same time. The whole time period beginning with Kings in which ceremonial laws were used as shadows of the true not seen, is considered a parable in that way .The word figure below is the word parable.

Which was a figure/parable for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. Heb 9:9

That reformation seems ignored today from many as if it never happened.

Those metaphors as shadows hid the gospel meaning as they spoke of the suffering of Christ beforehand and the glory that did follow the first resurrection.

We look back by faith they looked ahead by the same spirit of faith as it is written (Christ’s) as the kind of faith that comes from hearing God not seen .They receiving the end of their faith the salvation of their soul just as us in this side of the cross. Both looking back to the demonstration as a reformation restoring the goverment to another time period before there were Kings in Israel .

The apostate Jew no longer desired to worship the kIng of kings by faith (the unseen) .The temporal time period God gave them over to do what they should not of because of their jealousy of the surrounding nations, they demanded they have an outward representative. The first century refomation removed the Jews as used as types and shadows up until that time of reformation.

Sola scriptura or as it is written in the law and the prophecy restored it as it did in the fifteenth century refomation.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1Pe 1:9

Joseppi · Mar 12, 2018

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Matthew 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The offer was the legal control of all kingdoms of the world and their glory.

So, the vision of them was real.

Satan took Jesus into a high mountain, not on top of a high mountain.

The narrative suggests that Satan hides from mankind in the earth and possesses technology by which to observe the earth.

That is, the devil is real, his kingdom is real, and man is foolishly unaware of how true the written word of God is.

My impression is that lots of people don’t realize how assumptive they are about things they can’t see. Many seem to believe in magic.
Satan and man uses science to effect the appearance of magic power.
Magic doesn’t exist.
So, it is a shock for people to discover that God’s most high throne, temple, evil spirits, angels, and all the hosts of heaven are real.

Jacob saw a ladder used by angels as means of ascending and descending, to and from the earth.
Elisha saw a real army ready to destroy the real Syrian forces.
Elisha saw a chariot take Elijah away.
Moses staff became a real snake that ate the snakes of the magicians of Pharaoh.
Satan roamed to and fro and up and down in the earth searching for the Christ child in the book of Job.
A real global flood destroyed the whole world of Noah’s day.
The ark, and the salvation plan of God for Noah’s house and the creatures of the whole earth was real.
The multiplication of languages at Babel was real.
Eden was real.
Giants in the Earth were real.
Satan’s manipulation of Augustus Caesar to effect the timing of a peculiar census leading to the slaughter of Rachel’s children at Bethlehem
was real.
God created in six real common man work days.
The winds strove on a real great sea and produced four great empires that really existed.
There is a real and authorized holy book of all the scriptures of God on earth that tells the truth.

I just think many don’t believe the truth of what God tells us of in scripture.

mcubed · Mar 12, 2018

trofimus said:

I live in Ohio, what they call the hilltop.... To us this is a high mountain. If I lived in Appalachia, I'm sure people would pull out their 12 inch rulers... The Word of G-d is like when Y-shua was talking to the woman at the well, and she said to Him Yor people say we should worship on this mountain and my people yas we worship on that mountain. But Y-shua's answer was supperiing... He said someday a time is coming when you will worship on nether... Y-shua did not bother adulging simple human arguments... Nether should we.... All 66 Books are the infallible, inerrant Word of G-d.

Noose · Mar 13, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

No, i never meant that the satan was able to show the kingdoms of the entire world because the world then was limited to middle east, i said the temptation happened in the spirit and my point about the world at that time was a side note (not connected with the temptation).
From the bible alone, we are able to see how the populated world grew over time, during Abraham's time, the populated world was a tiny portion of the middle east and it kept growing outwards. Solomon was the king of the world and the furthest it reached is Ethiopia because we see the queen of Ethiopia paying tribute to Solomon. Nebuchadnezzar was also the king of the world and His empire spread across the middle east/ North Africa/parts of Europe/parts of Asia and this was some 600BC. When the disciples are commissioned to spread the gospel to every nation and in every language, that's also what we see, nations of the world were around the middle east and parts of Europe. All you are trying to say is that when God says "the world", He actually doesn't mean it.

The disciples and apostles are the two witnesses (this, you may not understand) that the antichrist kills after they finished prophesying to all nations aka spreading the gospel of truth to the world. Only John the Revelator is spared for the purpose of Revelation and was again told to prophesy to the nations and so the end times started with John writing down the Revelation- hence the statement by the angel in Rev 14:13 "..blessed are those that die in the Lord FROM NOW ON..."

Did you think that statement by the angel excludes some of the people in ancient empires that never got to hear the gospel as a witness? it is also said that the antichrist will affect people from all the nations and tribes/rich or poor/young or old- how did God expect the people from those ancient empires overcome the antichrist with the blood of the lamb if they never got to hear about it?

You arguments are mainly based on Science but even that can be argued because it doesn't make sense.

graceNpeace · Mar 13, 2018

Noose said:

Quite the opposite - we most definitely mean all of it, and that was the point of those posts.
However, Jesus clearly could not have seen "all the Kingdom's of the world" in a literal sense.
No peak in the world is high enough, and, in any case, the earth is a globe...
What Jesus "saw" was either in the spiritual realm or it was an explanation.
Either way, as Angela has convincingly demonstrated, the point of the story is that Jesus stoutly resisted the artless attempts by the devil to mislead Him...

Noose · Mar 13, 2018

Angela53510 said:

Taking a hike at a huge pyramid in Mexico is one thing and reality is another thing; it doesn't prove anything. Your arguments are based on dated artifacts and not bible. Do you believe the dating techniques are accurate?

Mark 13:10 You will be handed over to the councils and beaten in the synagogues. On My account, you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all the nations. 11But when they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand what to say. Instead, speak whatever you are given at that time, for it will not be you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Mexico was not part of the world that the disciples were to cover as per Jesus, either you know more than Jesus or you are mistaken.

Noose · Mar 13, 2018

graceNpeace said:

True, that's my point of view too but i was just trying to show that the world then was not as we know it now.

graceNpeace · Mar 13, 2018

Noose said:

Taking a hike at a huge pyramid in Mexico is one thing and reality is another thing; it doesn't prove anything. Your arguments are based on dated artifacts and not bible. Do you believe the dating techniques are accurate?

Mark 13:10 You will be handed over to the councils and beaten in the synagogues. On My account, you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all the nations. 11But when they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand what to say. Instead, speak whatever you are given at that time, for it will not be you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Mexico was not part of the world that the disciples were to cover as per Jesus, either you know more than Jesus or you are mistaken.

Did you really mean this as typed or would you like to revise it...

Noose · Mar 13, 2018

graceNpeace said:

Which part specifically are you talking about? help me out.

The proper interpretation of Scriptures

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