The Proverbs, Ecclesiasties, and the illusion of your Free Will

[thecreationtutor]

I will pose this as something I have been thinking about.

If the fool is, the righteous is - certain ways, certain actions - certain results

If there is nothing new under the Sun, and everything is meaningless and striving after the wind

If the Old Testament is written in such a way where Israel is a picture of us, our sinfulness, etc

That we use Scripture to renew our minds, it illustrates us to the T


How can we say we have an absolute free will, in which we are not slaves to sin(a bondage of our will)

How can we say that our will is not fallen? Where it is broken, from the fall?

Is not the Bible itself, the Supreme Illustration of God's Sovereignty over all things?

 

[p_rehbein]

Clearly you exercised your free will to think up and post this comment......sooooooo

 

[thecreationtutor]

Thanks for that non thought

 

[p_rehbein]

It complimented the non truth of the OP..........sooooo

 

[kaijo]

We have free will.

We freely choose to obey...or disobey.

Those are the only choices to choose from in this Creation. Hence we have free will.

Animals and the things in nature dont have free will. They obey. Hence they have no free will.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Luke 10:41-42
And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: 42But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

 

[Depleted]

I will pose this as something I have been thinking about.

If the fool is, the righteous is - certain ways, certain actions - certain results

If there is nothing new under the Sun, and everything is meaningless and striving after the wind

If the Old Testament is written in such a way where Israel is a picture of us, our sinfulness, etc

That we use Scripture to renew our minds, it illustrates us to the T


How can we say we have an absolute free will, in which we are not slaves to sin(a bondage of our will)

How can we say that our will is not fallen? Where it is broken, from the fall?

Is not the Bible itself, the Supreme Illustration of God's Sovereignty over all things?

 

[Depleted]

We have free will.

We freely choose to obey...or disobey.

Those are the only choices to choose from in this Creation. Hence we have free will.

Animals and the things in nature dont have free will. They obey. Hence they have no free will.

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/what-free-will/

 

[LivingIt]

I think sometimes we look at the same words & get different meaning in our heads.
I don't believe in total free will, Jesus said you cannot serve 2 masters, which shows us:

• we're always going to have a master, so no free will to go it alone.
• we can only choose between which master we want.
• we can't have both.

What we do have is the "free choice" to choose who we will serve, and that choice will never be taken away.

Joshua also said "choose this day whom you will serve"

It can't get any plainer than that, can it?

 

[Locutus]

Joshua also said "choose this day whom you will serve"

It can't get any plainer than that, can it?

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Apparently not.....it seems sinners can't be choosers...

 

[thecreationtutor]

We have free will.

We freely choose to obey...or disobey.

Those are the only choices to choose from in this Creation. Hence we have free will.

Animals and the things in nature dont have free will. They obey. Hence they have no free will.

I liked this thought actually

My Question to that is

What is Free will for the Human? -and how does that play in God's Sovereignty?

A few things I know, I have a will - but It's also fallen

A person who is dead to God has a will, but will bend to sin perpetually

I know not to hope in my will as well

 

[Meggido]

I will pose this as something I have been thinking about.

If the fool is, the righteous is - certain ways, certain actions - certain results

If there is nothing new under the Sun, and everything is meaningless and striving after the wind

If the Old Testament is written in such a way where Israel is a picture of us, our sinfulness, etc

That we use Scripture to renew our minds, it illustrates us to the T


How can we say we have an absolute free will, in which we are not slaves to sin(a bondage of our will)

How can we say that our will is not fallen? Where it is broken, from the fall?

Is not the Bible itself, the Supreme Illustration of God's Sovereignty over all things?

I think people greatly confuse free will....with free choice...God gives us free choice....

Now the elect reformed predestination TULIP Calvinists will call me silly when I say this...but I chose Jesus...

 

[Nehemiah6]

What is Free will for the Human? -and how does that play in God's Sovereignty?

The answer is really quite simple. There is absolutely NO CONFLICT between man's free will and God's sovereignty. Indeed, God in His absolutely sovereignty created men as free moral agents, so that they would freely choose to obey or disobey, love God or reject Him. And that is why Adam was presented with a TEST (which he failed). Had God chosen to create robotic human beings, Adam would have been obedient without any alternative.

Since you have brought up Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, they actually indicate that human beings have free will, not the opposite.

Take this example:My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not. (Prov 1:10)

How could this be possible, if the person addressed had no free will?

Here's another example: Devise not evil against thy neighbour, seeing he dwelleth securely by thee. (Prov 3:29).

If a man could not choose to refrain from evil, why would this instruction be given?

A few things I know, I have a will - but It's also fallen

Correct. And because all human beings are in this fallen state, people will frequently choose to sin and do evil. But all human beings also have a conscience, and Scripture tells us that when those without the Law (the Ten Commandments) do right according to their conscience, they are indeed obeying the Law.

What too many fail to understand is that when the Gospel is preached, "it is the power of God unto salvation for those who believe". What too many also fail to understand is that even though human beings are sinners, they can respond to the Gospel under the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit. So even when men are "dead in their trespasses and sins" they are still capable of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and being saved.

 

[kaijo]

I think sometimes we look at the same words & get different meaning in our heads.
I don't believe in total free will, Jesus said you cannot serve 2 masters, which shows us:

• we're always going to have a master, so no free will to go it alone.
• we can only choose between which master we want.
• we can't have both.

What we do have is the "free choice" to choose who we will serve, and that choice will never be taken away.

Joshua also said "choose this day whom you will serve"

It can't get any plainer than that, can it?

To me.. Will and Choice are the same thing.

Just because Jesus said that we cant serve 2 masters... doesn't mean we don't have Total free will.

What He meant was.... We cannot serve 2 masters (and expect to be "saved").

But we DO have Total free will. That's why it IS possible to serve 2 masters.

 

[kaijo]

I don't believe in total free will, Jesus said you cannot serve 2 masters, which shows us:

• we're always going to have a master, so no free will to go it alone.
• we can only choose between which master we want.
• we can't have both.

You make it sound like these are Terrible things..

• we're always going to have a master, so no free will to go it alone.

Why would u want to "go it alone"? How was that working out for you ...before you knew Him? Or do you think that you might have a more "perfect" way of life...than He has set out?

• we can only choose between which master we want.

Is that really a problem? To choose either Good , or evil? What else would there be to choose from?

• we can't have both.

Well we can... But just don't expect any favors from Him, if u decide to choose that route ^^"

 

[kaijo]

It seems to me that people dont like the idea of having a Master over them. As if God is an unfair Master.

Some of you may have pet dogs or cats. Do you not treat your pet fairly? As if it were family even?
And what is your pets response? Does it complain with the way you treat it? Or is it content... to have a master who treats it like ones own child?

Alot of people say the the reward for being saved is "Eternal Life".
But what is Eternal Life, without God? Its worthless.

Doesnt it make more sense that the reward is... to become a Family Member? And no longer a servant?
And therefore no longer having a Master over you?

And if He was to become your Actual Father.... Wouldnt a Father give His children whatever they desired? Including Eternal Life?

So anyway... This "Master/servant" relationship is only temporary for those who manage to make it into HIS Family , in the "end".

If you really desire to have no Master.... Then strive to be "adopted" into His Family ^^

 

[Nehemiah6]

It seems to me that people don't like the idea of having a Master over them. As if God is an unfair Master.

This is a non-issue for Christians since genuine Christians receive Christ as both Lord and Savior. Lord means "Master" and much more.

The real issue is trying to promote a false conflict between human free will and the sovereignty of God. Nothing can affect God's sovereignty, but what some fail to understand (or to believe) that while God is Sovereign He compels no one to love Him and worship Him. He did not compel Adam to obey Him (which He could have easily done) but gave Adam a choice, and also told him what the consequences of disobedience would be. He gave Adam a COMMAND but it was left up to Adam to obey or disobey. Today God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the Gospel (Acts 17:30) but He compels none to do so. However, they must then face the consequences of disobedience.

 

[Depleted]

To me.. Will and Choice are the same thing.

Just because Jesus said that we cant serve 2 masters... doesn't mean we don't have Total free will.

What He meant was.... We cannot serve 2 masters (and expect to be "saved").

But we DO have Total free will. That's why it IS possible to serve 2 masters.

If we have free will, and it is choice, then will yourself to go to the moon or the Mariana Trench. (Deepest part of the ocean.) Or, if neither of those does it for you, think of a place you'd love to go, and then will yourself to go there.

Will was just limited, wasn't it? I do believe in will, however will is limited to our nature. Our nature does not allow us to fly by flapping our arms, whisk ourselves off to walk around the moon, swim to the lowest part of the ocean, or not-sin. And, in the last case, our nature controls us to sin.

Above all else, our nature is built-in self-preservation. Agreed? And, I mean that literally. If we fancy a dip into the ocean to swim down to the Mariana Trench, it wouldn't kill us. Making to the trench would, but our body is set up that we would pass out before we went to the depths that would squash us, and then that same body would naturally float to the top of the ocean again. THAT is our will and nature. The two are inseparable naturally.

And in that self-preservation mode, our wills, even without our consent sometimes, will do whatever is needed to get what we want. A baby cries from hunger and thirst, but it also cries for attention and love. Even before we can think out our first verbalized thought, we're already getting what we want.

And what we want was explained fully in two verses of something Jesus said, long ago.
John 3:[FONT=&quot]19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.[/FONT]

 

[Depleted]

It seems to me that people dont like the idea of having a Master over them. As if God is an unfair Master.

Some of you may have pet dogs or cats. Do you not treat your pet fairly? As if it were family even?
And what is your pets response? Does it complain with the way you treat it? Or is it content... to have a master who treats it like ones own child?

Alot of people say the the reward for being saved is "Eternal Life".
But what is Eternal Life, without God? Its worthless.

Doesnt it make more sense that the reward is... to become a Family Member? And no longer a servant?
And therefore no longer having a Master over you?

And if He was to become your Actual Father.... Wouldnt a Father give His children whatever they desired? Including Eternal Life?

So anyway... This "Master/servant" relationship is only temporary for those who manage to make it into HIS Family , in the "end".

If you really desire to have no Master.... Then strive to be "adopted" into His Family ^^

My father is still my master.

 

[thecreationtutor]

This is a non-issue for Christians since genuine Christians receive Christ as both Lord and Savior. Lord means "Master" and much more.

The real issue is trying to promote a false conflict between human free will and the sovereignty of God. Nothing can affect God's sovereignty, but what some fail to understand (or to believe) that while God is Sovereign He compels no one to love Him and worship Him. He did not compel Adam to obey Him (which He could have easily done) but gave Adam a choice, and also told him what the consequences of disobedience would be. He gave Adam a COMMAND but it was left up to Adam to obey or disobey. Today God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the Gospel (Acts 17:30) but He compels none to do so. However, they must then face the consequences of disobedience.

Paul never felt compelled by Christ? Or confronted daily or in 2 Corinthians?

For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; [SUP]15 [/SUP]and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.