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We have plenty of passages in the OT and NT that state the Lord is on Mount Zion prior to engaging His enemies leading up to Armageddon. Rev 14:1 places the 144K with the Lord on Mount Zion. If they were to be transformed or transfigured and taken to heaven, why are they still on earth when the Lord returns and why are they still subject to death? We have plenty of passages that states the Lord returns in the cloud(s) of heaven. We have plenty of passages that states the Elect or remnant are gathered when the Lord returns.
What we don't have is any passages that state the Elect are transformed in any way. We don't have one single passage that states when the Lord returns in the cloud(s) that He then goes back to heaven either alone or with anyone. We don't have a single passage that discusses two separate and distinct returns of Christ. Yet apparently, you and others have absolutely no problem believing all of this.
I know why you believe it, you piece unrelated scripture together that you think are related to derive these events but that does not make them fact, it makes them theory and I would argue pretty weak theory. You take 1 Cor 15:51-53 which discusses resurrection without any timing given. Nothing in these verses discuss this transformation being associated with the Lord's tribulation era return. There are no mention of clouds or gathering of saints here. In fact, the Lord's return isn't even mentioned in these verses. You have to go back to verse 23 to find the Lord's return discussed which is followed by verse 24 where the Lord turns the kingdom over to the father after His millennial reign. So, how do we know Paul isn't discussing post millennium resurrection here?
Then you take 1 Thes 4:13-17 which I agree is tribulation era and you marry this passage up with 1 Cor 15:51-53. Who said you could do that? If you read 1 Thes 4:13 through 1 Thes 5:11 we see that Paul is discussing the Second Coming of Christ as he mentions the "Day of the Lord" in 1 Thes 5:2 where he describes Christ coming as a thief in the night. But if you read carefully, there isn't one word of anyone alive being transformed. Paul doesn't discuss anyone alive being taken to heaven. He doesn't discuss the Lord returning to heaven. But apparently you, and many others, have no problems connecting dots that aren't supposed to be connected into some Pre-Trib Rapture theory.
Face it, in none of the Olivet Discourse passages does Christ say a word about transforming the living or returning to heaven for some rapture. John doesn't discuss it either. In fact, what Pre-Tribbers have done is take two unrelated passages, 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4, combine them and add in between them a return to heaven before the tribulation.
I know of only one passage where anyone is supposedly gathered in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and that is 1 Thes 4:17. There is no witness passage to support this statement, but the whole pre-trib theory rests on this one verse without any other supporting evidence and even with this verse, more than half of the theory is made-up with ZERO Biblical support. It would therefore be wise to study the original transcripts...
What we don't have is any passages that state the Elect are transformed in any way. We don't have one single passage that states when the Lord returns in the cloud(s) that He then goes back to heaven either alone or with anyone. We don't have a single passage that discusses two separate and distinct returns of Christ. Yet apparently, you and others have absolutely no problem believing all of this.
I know why you believe it, you piece unrelated scripture together that you think are related to derive these events but that does not make them fact, it makes them theory and I would argue pretty weak theory. You take 1 Cor 15:51-53 which discusses resurrection without any timing given. Nothing in these verses discuss this transformation being associated with the Lord's tribulation era return. There are no mention of clouds or gathering of saints here. In fact, the Lord's return isn't even mentioned in these verses. You have to go back to verse 23 to find the Lord's return discussed which is followed by verse 24 where the Lord turns the kingdom over to the father after His millennial reign. So, how do we know Paul isn't discussing post millennium resurrection here?
Then you take 1 Thes 4:13-17 which I agree is tribulation era and you marry this passage up with 1 Cor 15:51-53. Who said you could do that? If you read 1 Thes 4:13 through 1 Thes 5:11 we see that Paul is discussing the Second Coming of Christ as he mentions the "Day of the Lord" in 1 Thes 5:2 where he describes Christ coming as a thief in the night. But if you read carefully, there isn't one word of anyone alive being transformed. Paul doesn't discuss anyone alive being taken to heaven. He doesn't discuss the Lord returning to heaven. But apparently you, and many others, have no problems connecting dots that aren't supposed to be connected into some Pre-Trib Rapture theory.
Face it, in none of the Olivet Discourse passages does Christ say a word about transforming the living or returning to heaven for some rapture. John doesn't discuss it either. In fact, what Pre-Tribbers have done is take two unrelated passages, 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thes 4, combine them and add in between them a return to heaven before the tribulation.
I know of only one passage where anyone is supposedly gathered in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and that is 1 Thes 4:17. There is no witness passage to support this statement, but the whole pre-trib theory rests on this one verse without any other supporting evidence and even with this verse, more than half of the theory is made-up with ZERO Biblical support. It would therefore be wise to study the original transcripts...
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17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Caught 726 (Harpazo) from a der. of 138; to seize (in various applications); - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
Clouds 3507 (Nephele) from 3509; prop. cloudiness, i.e. (concr.) a cloud: - cloud
Air 109 (Aer); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by anal. to blow) Comp. 5594
5594 Psucho; a primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently)
The key word here is AIR. There are two forms of AIR used in the NT, 3772 Ouranos which means atmosphere "AIR" which is used from Matthew through Acts 11. Then the rest of the NT uses 109 Aer which means breathing or alive. This is a very important distinction!! So you don't necessarily have "CLOUDS IN THE SKY OR AIR" instead you have just meeting or gathering in Clouds or actually cloudiness while still alive and breathing.
Since we have a cloudy day, and cloudy mountain and we have no transfiguration of any living person, just dead in Christ being resurrected, and we have the Lord clearly on Mount Zion, it is far less of a stretch to say the Lord returns to the top of Mount Zion on a cloudy day, the Dead in Christ are resurrected and those of us alive and remaining are gathered and/or caught up to the top of the mountain with the Lord than it is to say we are transformed, meeting the Lord in the air with the resurrected where we retreat back to heaven.
I think my view is far more consistent with the Bible, much more believable, and much more logical than the main stream position of a Rapture, the way most understand it.
Caught 726 (Harpazo) from a der. of 138; to seize (in various applications); - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
Clouds 3507 (Nephele) from 3509; prop. cloudiness, i.e. (concr.) a cloud: - cloud
Air 109 (Aer); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by anal. to blow) Comp. 5594
5594 Psucho; a primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently)
The key word here is AIR. There are two forms of AIR used in the NT, 3772 Ouranos which means atmosphere "AIR" which is used from Matthew through Acts 11. Then the rest of the NT uses 109 Aer which means breathing or alive. This is a very important distinction!! So you don't necessarily have "CLOUDS IN THE SKY OR AIR" instead you have just meeting or gathering in Clouds or actually cloudiness while still alive and breathing.
Since we have a cloudy day, and cloudy mountain and we have no transfiguration of any living person, just dead in Christ being resurrected, and we have the Lord clearly on Mount Zion, it is far less of a stretch to say the Lord returns to the top of Mount Zion on a cloudy day, the Dead in Christ are resurrected and those of us alive and remaining are gathered and/or caught up to the top of the mountain with the Lord than it is to say we are transformed, meeting the Lord in the air with the resurrected where we retreat back to heaven.
I think my view is far more consistent with the Bible, much more believable, and much more logical than the main stream position of a Rapture, the way most understand it.
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The Rapture teaching is very dangerous people need to give out truth. I work in a care home and one of the residents thought the rapture happened today. It was so sad to see her go through this. She was in the dinningroom and for whatever reason many of the other residents were not there. She heard someone say that they did not know where the residents were. If you could see this poor woman going through deep thought about missing the rapture it would have broken your heart. Just think about the maybe millions of people who may feel this deep pain one day because of this teaching.
W
Why would the rapture change how we live for God? Are not we supposed to live every day ,every hour waiting for him. Look at the parable of the steward who did not look for his lord return and took his good and partied with them. Paul says we all run a race , but not to count ourselves as already winning but run with all our might.I don't know any body that has been raptured ,(except in heart) but know many who have died and the saw the Lords return. We should live like that. Scripture says the day of the lord is a very dark day ,not to be rejoiced in . It say don't rejoice in the day of your neighbor calamity. We need to press toward the mark of the high calling of God,as scripture says. Live for Jesus now.Use what you have for Jesus Now.Not tomorrow. God is going to come when they think not . Yes even you who think you are end time scholars and make a big shew of it. even you will the God of all catch off guard . when you grab your chest from a heart attack , or from that blood clot in your brain, or the wild driver who hit you head on, or may be just a fall on slippery Ice .Live for the lord with all you mind soul and strength and use whatever he has given you for his Kingdom and build everlasting habitations.
The rapture is a false doctrine, used to scare people. Everyone I have ever met is constantly wondering if they missed it, or it is coming tomorrow. We are not supposed to be sitting around watching signs, but rather gathering the harvest and on mission with God. We are supposed to be preaching the gospel, not worrying about whether some sign means the end, when the only important sign is the gospel being preached to all the nations.
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matt 24:14
Jesus Christ comes twice. Once was at his incarnation. The second time will be when he returns and everyone will know it!
"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen." Rev. 1:7
There is no secret rapture, which would require a third time for Jesus returning after this second time with this erroneous false rapture doctrine.
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matt 24:14
Jesus Christ comes twice. Once was at his incarnation. The second time will be when he returns and everyone will know it!
"Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen." Rev. 1:7
There is no secret rapture, which would require a third time for Jesus returning after this second time with this erroneous false rapture doctrine.
Peace be with you, very sad to hear you talk like that, a mocker of the Truth and this also grieves the HOLY SPIRIT. Initially as a fresh in faith believer the fear you experienced is only for GOD's Word and that was also initially your first love in fearing HIM.
Now since you have not continued to supplement to your faith Kingdom knowledge and practices of Holy Scripture's New Covenant commandment and instructions and also by the Help of the Teacher the HOLY SPIRIT, you are beginning to slowly lose everything that GOD has sown in you. You are not mocking and disregarding against man but GOD the HOLY SPIRIT who have inspired the Holy Scriptures in the Holy Bible.
In reminder and to the stir up one's memory, instead of you growing in spirit and truth to worship, honoring the True Living GOD who is SPIRIT, you have outgrown and gone ahead of CHRIST, growing in spirit and false worshiping honoring the false dead God, Satan who is also a spirit and also written, he plants his 'seed of weeds' here on earth too.
You still have Grace for repentance for as it is written; "HE corrects the ones HE loves."
"If you talk anything against the Son of man, you can be forgiven but if you talk anything against the HOLY SPIRIT, you can never be forgiven."
May the Merciful GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST forgive you and bless you with truth, kindness and peace.
Now since you have not continued to supplement to your faith Kingdom knowledge and practices of Holy Scripture's New Covenant commandment and instructions and also by the Help of the Teacher the HOLY SPIRIT, you are beginning to slowly lose everything that GOD has sown in you. You are not mocking and disregarding against man but GOD the HOLY SPIRIT who have inspired the Holy Scriptures in the Holy Bible.
In reminder and to the stir up one's memory, instead of you growing in spirit and truth to worship, honoring the True Living GOD who is SPIRIT, you have outgrown and gone ahead of CHRIST, growing in spirit and false worshiping honoring the false dead God, Satan who is also a spirit and also written, he plants his 'seed of weeds' here on earth too.
You still have Grace for repentance for as it is written; "HE corrects the ones HE loves."
"If you talk anything against the Son of man, you can be forgiven but if you talk anything against the HOLY SPIRIT, you can never be forgiven."
May the Merciful GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST forgive you and bless you with truth, kindness and peace.
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They are gathered in the air (1Th 4:17), not on land.
Agreed.
At the second coming of Christ at the end of time, the elect are resurrected with their bodies of glory, who along with the elect that are alive when he returns, ascend to meet the Lord in the air (1Th 4:16-17) and then descend with him to participate in the final judgment at the end of time (1Co 6:2).
You have me confused with someone else.
Are you serious?
Are you really saying that the NT word of God is not true unless it is stated twice?
Who made up that silly rule?
The NT certainly does not agree with it.
There are whole chapters in John (e.g., chps 14, 15, 16, 17) without "witness passages."
Agreed.
At the second coming of Christ at the end of time, the elect are resurrected with their bodies of glory, who along with the elect that are alive when he returns, ascend to meet the Lord in the air (1Th 4:16-17) and then descend with him to participate in the final judgment at the end of time (1Co 6:2).
You have me confused with someone else.
Are you serious?
Are you really saying that the NT word of God is not true unless it is stated twice?
Who made up that silly rule?
The NT certainly does not agree with it.
There are whole chapters in John (e.g., chps 14, 15, 16, 17) without "witness passages."
This incredibly silly attempt to dismantle the word of God in 1Th 4:17 speaks volumes for itself.
So the word of God in1Th 4:16-17 is not true simply because you consider it a "stretch". . .amazing!
The real "stretch" here (to say the least) is your altering of God's word to fit your erroneous theology.
There is no "retreating" back to heaven until after descending to earth to assist in judging the world (1Co 6:2).
This unbelieving (of the word of God in 1Th 4:17) silliness speaks far more than I could ever say.
Amazing!
So the word of God in1Th 4:16-17 is not true simply because you consider it a "stretch". . .amazing!
The real "stretch" here (to say the least) is your altering of God's word to fit your erroneous theology.
There is no "retreating" back to heaven until after descending to earth to assist in judging the world (1Co 6:2).
This unbelieving (of the word of God in 1Th 4:17) silliness speaks far more than I could ever say.
Amazing!
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Translations are not divine. That's a fact!!! There are many translations out there that alter the Word of God. These alterations may at times seem insignificant but at times they can completely change the content. The Bible was written in primarily Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. You are reading an English translation. I can cite several examples from memory of main stream translations which appear harmless but are actually very bad indeed if you want.
Translating is not an exact science. The first rule of any translator is to ensure the translated passage makes sense within the context of the passage. In the case of 1 Thes 4:17, the translator took 3507 (Nephele) as "Clouds" instead of "Cloudiness" which is every bit as correct a translation, then took 109 (Aer); as "Atmosphere Air" instead of "breathe or respire" because in the translators mind, it made better sense to him. To the translator it made better sense to say we are "caught up in the clouds in the air" than to say we are "caught up in cloudiness alive and breathing." But if you look at the related passages such as Joel 2 and Rev 14 and even Acts 3:19-22 and you have additional context one could very easily be steered to a different English translation with a very different meaning.
To be a student of the Bible, you cannot rely strictly on the English translation even using the KJV or NKJV alone. When one encounters potential inconsistencies, especially where there are no witness passages, one must always go to the original Greek or Hebrew and look at other possible translations that would be consistent. Paul admonishes us just a few verses later in 1 Thes 5:
20 Do not despise prophecies.
21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
You have NOT tested, you have blindly accepted teaching of men that adds an entire new and separate return of the Lord that He never taught.
What would be the purpose of a Pre-Trib Rature? The only purpose I can see is to remove and protect the Church from Satan's temptation coming in the Great Tribulation for a limited time period whether it is 3.5 or 7 years. This thinking contradicts the character and past practices of God!! God has NEVER taken man off the planet to protect Him from His divine judgment so why would He do it to protect from Satan's wrath?? God is more than capable of protecting those He wishes to protect from a global flood or intentions of wicked Egypt or whatever the case may be without doing something as drastic as removing up to 1/3 of the world in a rapture off to heaven. First that would be cowardice in the face of evil and second, it would question God's power and third, such a view contradicts multiple Biblical passages.
To think God would not allow His church to be tested is, at best, naive. God allowed His own Son to be tested and Abraham and Job just to name a few. We know He will test Israel. What makes us think the Church doesn't need or deserve testing? There are a lot of weak Sunday Christians out there...
Translating is not an exact science. The first rule of any translator is to ensure the translated passage makes sense within the context of the passage. In the case of 1 Thes 4:17, the translator took 3507 (Nephele) as "Clouds" instead of "Cloudiness" which is every bit as correct a translation, then took 109 (Aer); as "Atmosphere Air" instead of "breathe or respire" because in the translators mind, it made better sense to him. To the translator it made better sense to say we are "caught up in the clouds in the air" than to say we are "caught up in cloudiness alive and breathing." But if you look at the related passages such as Joel 2 and Rev 14 and even Acts 3:19-22 and you have additional context one could very easily be steered to a different English translation with a very different meaning.
To be a student of the Bible, you cannot rely strictly on the English translation even using the KJV or NKJV alone. When one encounters potential inconsistencies, especially where there are no witness passages, one must always go to the original Greek or Hebrew and look at other possible translations that would be consistent. Paul admonishes us just a few verses later in 1 Thes 5:
20 Do not despise prophecies.
21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
You have NOT tested, you have blindly accepted teaching of men that adds an entire new and separate return of the Lord that He never taught.
What would be the purpose of a Pre-Trib Rature? The only purpose I can see is to remove and protect the Church from Satan's temptation coming in the Great Tribulation for a limited time period whether it is 3.5 or 7 years. This thinking contradicts the character and past practices of God!! God has NEVER taken man off the planet to protect Him from His divine judgment so why would He do it to protect from Satan's wrath?? God is more than capable of protecting those He wishes to protect from a global flood or intentions of wicked Egypt or whatever the case may be without doing something as drastic as removing up to 1/3 of the world in a rapture off to heaven. First that would be cowardice in the face of evil and second, it would question God's power and third, such a view contradicts multiple Biblical passages.
To think God would not allow His church to be tested is, at best, naive. God allowed His own Son to be tested and Abraham and Job just to name a few. We know He will test Israel. What makes us think the Church doesn't need or deserve testing? There are a lot of weak Sunday Christians out there...
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I feel the need to point out and stress one thing. There are Biblical truths and there are Biblical theories. Biblical truths are concrete things that are clearly taught such as the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ.
The "Rapture" is a theory, it is not a truth. Most who believe in a Rapture believe the following key components of a Rapture.
1. The Lord returns BEFORE the Tribulation (THEORY)
2. The Lord returns with the Saints in Heaven (PARTIAL TRUTH)
3. The Lord gathers Christians who are alive and remaining in the clouds of the sky (PARTIAL TRUTH)
4. Those who are alive that the Lord gathers He gives spiritual bodies (THEORY)
5. The Lord takes all those He gathers back to heaven with Him to wait out the Tribulation (THEORY)
There is not a single passage that contains all or even most of these key tenants. Specifically:
1. There is not a single verse in the whole Bible that places any return of the Lord before the Tribulation. The only timing that is specifically given is AFTER the Tribulation.
2. Rev 20:4-5 pretty clearly teaches that only those who will "killed in the line of duty" so to speak return with the Lord.
3. As I pointed out in my last post there is an alternative translation of the Greek word for "Clouds" and "Air" that suggest those gathered are gathered in "cloudiness and while alive." This alternative translation would tend to be supported with Joel and Revelation 14 accounts.
4. There is not a single verse in the Bible that states those who are alive and gathered (whether before, during or after the tribulation) are given spiritual bodies. NOT ONE VERSE!! This idea is complete fabrication and myth. The only passage that I am aware of where something like this is described is in 1 Cor 15. However, the timing is not given here and neither the Lord nor His return is mentioned here. In fact, the context strongly suggests Paul is discussing the End of the Millennium which makes total sense in that he was discussing that the Last Enemy Christ defeats is Death. For death to be the last enemy to be defeated, there have to be Christians still alive until the end of the Millennium. This is a clear example of a Biblical theory that is taught as an absolute fact when it is anything but absolute!!
5. There isn't one single verse anywhere that says after the Lord returns (for ANY return) that He does a u-turn and goes back to heaven. But here again, this is taught as a Biblical truth when it is nothing but a theory and I'd argue, a very weak theory if one truly studies the Word.
I encourage all of my Brothers and Sisters in Christ to not blindly accept the teachings of man when it comes to the Word of God. Test and prove all things. It is okay to have a theory but if it's a theory, it should be taught as a theory and not as an absolute. So many of our church leaders are guilty of teaching fiction or theory as fact and if they are wrong, they could be guilty of adding to, or subtracting from, the true Word of God. This practice is very dangerous and we are specifically commanded against doing it.
The "Rapture" is a theory, it is not a truth. Most who believe in a Rapture believe the following key components of a Rapture.
1. The Lord returns BEFORE the Tribulation (THEORY)
2. The Lord returns with the Saints in Heaven (PARTIAL TRUTH)
3. The Lord gathers Christians who are alive and remaining in the clouds of the sky (PARTIAL TRUTH)
4. Those who are alive that the Lord gathers He gives spiritual bodies (THEORY)
5. The Lord takes all those He gathers back to heaven with Him to wait out the Tribulation (THEORY)
There is not a single passage that contains all or even most of these key tenants. Specifically:
1. There is not a single verse in the whole Bible that places any return of the Lord before the Tribulation. The only timing that is specifically given is AFTER the Tribulation.
2. Rev 20:4-5 pretty clearly teaches that only those who will "killed in the line of duty" so to speak return with the Lord.
3. As I pointed out in my last post there is an alternative translation of the Greek word for "Clouds" and "Air" that suggest those gathered are gathered in "cloudiness and while alive." This alternative translation would tend to be supported with Joel and Revelation 14 accounts.
4. There is not a single verse in the Bible that states those who are alive and gathered (whether before, during or after the tribulation) are given spiritual bodies. NOT ONE VERSE!! This idea is complete fabrication and myth. The only passage that I am aware of where something like this is described is in 1 Cor 15. However, the timing is not given here and neither the Lord nor His return is mentioned here. In fact, the context strongly suggests Paul is discussing the End of the Millennium which makes total sense in that he was discussing that the Last Enemy Christ defeats is Death. For death to be the last enemy to be defeated, there have to be Christians still alive until the end of the Millennium. This is a clear example of a Biblical theory that is taught as an absolute fact when it is anything but absolute!!
5. There isn't one single verse anywhere that says after the Lord returns (for ANY return) that He does a u-turn and goes back to heaven. But here again, this is taught as a Biblical truth when it is nothing but a theory and I'd argue, a very weak theory if one truly studies the Word.
I encourage all of my Brothers and Sisters in Christ to not blindly accept the teachings of man when it comes to the Word of God. Test and prove all things. It is okay to have a theory but if it's a theory, it should be taught as a theory and not as an absolute. So many of our church leaders are guilty of teaching fiction or theory as fact and if they are wrong, they could be guilty of adding to, or subtracting from, the true Word of God. This practice is very dangerous and we are specifically commanded against doing it.
Baloney. . .
No, the first rule of correct translation is to ensure that the translation is true to the original language being translated
In the Greek, aer does not mean "breathe or respire."
That is a complete fabrication, and another silly attempt to dismantle the word of God in Th 4:17.
Not in correct translating.
The meaning of a passage is the meaning of its words in the original language.
Other passages with other words do not alter the meaning of the words in any particular passage.
The Greek word in 1Th 5:20 is "prophysying," not prophecies.
And in its context: "Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not despise prophysing,"
Paul is referring to the gift of prophecy (Ro 12:6; 1Co 12:10, 28, 13:2, 14; Eph 4:11).
Jesus comes but twice, once to die in atonement for sin,
and once to judge at the end of time (Heb 9:28),
and not in between.
Jesus must remain in heaven until the time to restore all things (Ac 3:21),
which is the end of time in the new heavens and new earth.
There will be no appearing or revealing of Jesus prior to the end of time.
I have corrected you on that before.
Okay, I've covered this with you before in the following:
You are not paying attention, or you are not reading my posts.
Seems there are also some who don't pay attention.
If you don't pay better attention, you will not be taken seriously.
No, the first rule of correct translation is to ensure that the translation is true to the original language being translated
In the Greek, aer does not mean "breathe or respire."
That is a complete fabrication, and another silly attempt to dismantle the word of God in Th 4:17.
Not in correct translating.
The meaning of a passage is the meaning of its words in the original language.
Other passages with other words do not alter the meaning of the words in any particular passage.
The Greek word in 1Th 5:20 is "prophysying," not prophecies.
And in its context: "Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not despise prophysing,"
Paul is referring to the gift of prophecy (Ro 12:6; 1Co 12:10, 28, 13:2, 14; Eph 4:11).
Jesus comes but twice, once to die in atonement for sin,
and once to judge at the end of time (Heb 9:28),
and not in between.
Jesus must remain in heaven until the time to restore all things (Ac 3:21),
which is the end of time in the new heavens and new earth.
There will be no appearing or revealing of Jesus prior to the end of time.
I have corrected you on that before.
Okay, I've covered this with you before in the following:
You are not paying attention, or you are not reading my posts.
Seems there are also some who don't pay attention.
If you don't pay better attention, you will not be taken seriously.
Wrong.
1Th 4:16-17 clearly presents a rapture.
TRUTH.
The Lord returns with the spirits of the dead saints, whose spirits are united with their resurrection bodies and rise to meet the Lord in the air to accompany him down to earth for the judgment of the world.
TRUTH.
The Christians who are alive at Christ's second coming join with the resurrected saints to meet the Lord in the air.
TRUTH.
In the twinkling of an eye, those who are alive when Christ returns will be changed to spiritual (sinless, glorious, powerful) resurrection physical bodies.
WRONG.
1Th 4:16-17; 2Th 2:1-4; 1Co 15 present 2, 3, 4.
Baloney. . .
1Co 15 makes clear that our physical resurrection bodies are spiritual (sinless, glorious and powerful).
1Th 4:16-17 makes clear that the rapture follows the resurrection of the saints, which means reunion of spiritual resurrection physical bodies with their departed spirits.
Right.
At the end of time, the Lord descends,
the saints rise to meet him in the air, and
all continue descent to earth together for the judgment of the world.
1Th 4:16-17 clearly presents a rapture.
TRUTH.
The Lord returns with the spirits of the dead saints, whose spirits are united with their resurrection bodies and rise to meet the Lord in the air to accompany him down to earth for the judgment of the world.
TRUTH.
The Christians who are alive at Christ's second coming join with the resurrected saints to meet the Lord in the air.
TRUTH.
In the twinkling of an eye, those who are alive when Christ returns will be changed to spiritual (sinless, glorious, powerful) resurrection physical bodies.
WRONG.
1Th 4:16-17; 2Th 2:1-4; 1Co 15 present 2, 3, 4.
Baloney. . .
1Co 15 makes clear that our physical resurrection bodies are spiritual (sinless, glorious and powerful).
1Th 4:16-17 makes clear that the rapture follows the resurrection of the saints, which means reunion of spiritual resurrection physical bodies with their departed spirits.
Right.
At the end of time, the Lord descends,
the saints rise to meet him in the air, and
all continue descent to earth together for the judgment of the world.
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I
honestly, this whole board is a example of things christians get to consumed with. its a lot of unnecessary topics, topics that people are putting too much thought into, making simple things into complicated issues. i call that the atheist way. over-thinking.
the minor details is not whats important. its not going to save you. let your relationship with God be front and center, and everything else will follow. all the wisdom you need will be given to you through the spirit, and all you have to do is ask in prayer. also, need a relationship to ask.
but it is a nice site, tho. it can be for a good use. but a lot of it is unnecessary.
the minor details is not whats important. its not going to save you. let your relationship with God be front and center, and everything else will follow. all the wisdom you need will be given to you through the spirit, and all you have to do is ask in prayer. also, need a relationship to ask.
but it is a nice site, tho. it can be for a good use. but a lot of it is unnecessary.
W
wow.
abiding in the vine is not hard, is it
....who wants to be anywhere but with Christ
sorry dear...the Bible says we can know we are saved.
and we have assurance - we are supposed to have assurance.
i`m sorry for you that you do not.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Romans 8
15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ
abiding in the vine is not hard, is it
....who wants to be anywhere but with Christsorry dear...the Bible says we can know we are saved.
and we have assurance - we are supposed to have assurance.
i`m sorry for you that you do not.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Romans 8
15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ
Translating is not an exact science.
Baloney. . .
NKJV Mark 6:
37 But He answered and said to them, "You give them something to eat." And they said to Him, "Shall we go and buy two hundred denarii worth of bread and give them something to eat?"
NIV Mark 6:
37 But he answered, "You give them something to eat." They said to him, "That would take eight months of a man's wages ! Are we to go and spend that much on bread and give it to them to eat?"
Do you see this as the same thing? Are you familiar with the importance of Biblical numbers? The NIV is a major mainstream translation used by thousands of churches. Is 8 months wages and 200 Denarii really the same thing? Who told the translator of the NIV that God wanted to stress the equivalent of how many months a man needs to work instead of the amount of currency? 800 instead of 200 throws off the Biblical Mathematics and is a clear example of a translator imposing what he thinks is more important to stress verses what God wanted to stress. Thus, you need to be careful. Translations are not divine - only the original text is divinely given.
Do you actually have a Strong's Concordance or are you just making things up as you go?
109 AER: from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by anal. to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient): air. Comp 5594.
cir·cum·am·bi·ent [sur-kuh
adjective surrounding; encompassing: circumambient gloom.
5594 psucho, a primary verb; to breathe voluntarily but gently.
Look it up.
Oh good, so you don't believe in the Pre-Trib rapture?
But you do believe in a Rapture???
I said partial truth. Many pastors teach that ALL Saints in heaven return with Christ. The Bible teaches that just the martyred saints return and that the rest of the dead "live not again" until the 1,000 years are finished.
1 Thes 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-53 are not related!!! They are separated by 1,000 years!! Who said they are related?
51 Behold , I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep , but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Do you see the word, "Lord" or "Christ" or "Jesus" mentioned in the above?
Do you see anything suggesting the Lord's return to associate it with the Second Coming?
Do you see any mention of a "gathering" or being "caught up" in the above?
Do you see any "Clouds" mentioned or "air?"
Do you see the timing given such as Tribulation era?
Do you find "last" and "trump" used together in any other passage in the Bible?
I DON'T. So who told you that you can tie the above passage to 1 Thes 4?? MAN!! NOT GOD!!
Who (or What) is the last enemy destroyed? DEATH. Is death destroyed at the beginning or end of Christ's millennial reign???
There are two resurrections, we know that. What makes you think the living should be getting glorified bodies before God comes at the end of the millennium? Do you see that taught anywhere??? I don't see anyone ALIVE getting glorified bodies in 1 Thes 4. Do you???
Do you think it is okay to teach that the living Saints receive glorified bodies at the Second Coming of Christ is there is not a single verse in the whole Bible that actually says this??? Stay true to the Word.
I'm glad you agree with point 5. So if I understand correctly you don't believe in a pre-Trib rapture but you do see a Rapture of sorts in that those alive after the Tribulation when the Lord returns actually fly up into the clouds in the physical atmosphere air and receive glorified bodies then return to earth? I see the Lord gathering those alive on the top of Mount Zion on a cloudy or foggy day without receiving glorified bodies. My view is far less dramatic but more consistent with other passages.
1 Thes 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-53 are not related!!! They are separated by 1,000 years!! Who said they are related?
51 Behold , I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep , but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Do you see the word, "Lord" or "Christ" or "Jesus" mentioned in the above?
Do you see anything suggesting the Lord's return to associate it with the Second Coming?
Do you see any mention of a "gathering" or being "caught up" in the above?
Do you see any "Clouds" mentioned or "air?"
Do you see the timing given such as Tribulation era?
Do you find "last" and "trump" used together in any other passage in the Bible?
I DON'T. So who told you that you can tie the above passage to 1 Thes 4?? MAN!! NOT GOD!!
Who (or What) is the last enemy destroyed? DEATH. Is death destroyed at the beginning or end of Christ's millennial reign???
There are two resurrections, we know that. What makes you think the living should be getting glorified bodies before God comes at the end of the millennium? Do you see that taught anywhere??? I don't see anyone ALIVE getting glorified bodies in 1 Thes 4. Do you???
Do you think it is okay to teach that the living Saints receive glorified bodies at the Second Coming of Christ is there is not a single verse in the whole Bible that actually says this??? Stay true to the Word.
I'm glad you agree with point 5. So if I understand correctly you don't believe in a pre-Trib rapture but you do see a Rapture of sorts in that those alive after the Tribulation when the Lord returns actually fly up into the clouds in the physical atmosphere air and receive glorified bodies then return to earth? I see the Lord gathering those alive on the top of Mount Zion on a cloudy or foggy day without receiving glorified bodies. My view is far less dramatic but more consistent with other passages.
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