The Rapture: And Other Silly Things Christians Get Consumed With

[konroh]

okay....did the lamb represent something AS WELL AS PERFORMING SOMETHING int he physical?

I was referencing the idea that the lion will lay down with the lamb, it's a peaceful symbol, but also should be taken literally.

first the natural, then the spiritual.

I don't think this is a hermeneutical principle. Paul's use of it in 1 Cor. is in reference to natural bodies and then spiritual bodies. I do agree that the NT interprets the OT, but not re-interprets, that is, changes the original meaning.

so, you literally believe that Abraham had children that numbered as many as the stars of heaven and the sands of the sea?

If we were to take this literalistally, we would say that Abe only had 3000 children, since that's how many stars we can see with the human eye. But of course this is hyperbole and a metaphor, well within the understanding of how we naturally interpret. But it's not allegorical interpretation, that would look something like Abraham is somehow the Father of all the angels in heaven (as an example).

And with the idea of a land promise. What Hebrews shows is that in addition to Abraham looking for real land, he also was looking to a heavenly land, which is something we can also do. They absolutely were looking for the "land of milk and honey" promised to them. But they were also looking to heaven. Deut 31:20“For when I bring them into the land flowing with milk and honey, which I swore to their fathers, and they have eaten and are satisfied and become prosperous, then they will turn to other gods and serve them, and spurn Me and break My covenant. God knew that the physical promises that He provided could cause them to turn away from Him spiritually, which is why Moses wrote the song, so they wouldn't forget.



Amos 9:15 says the Jews would return from captivity and "never again be uprooted from their land." They were uprooted many times. To say that God said this to the captives, but His meaning was that they would never be uprooted from a spiritual land makes a mockery of the words of Scripture, in my humble opinion. To me it's the equivalent of us going to heaven and Jesus saying to us, "When I said I was coming back for you, I didn't mean it literally or physically, I meant it spiritually. See, you're spiritually here with me now, it's all good."

So it's not that the land promise is re-interpreted by the NT to mean a spiritual land, which it would be impossible for the original recipients to have understood, it's that the eternal land promise was believed by Abraham because He knew that God was in control of heaven, and therefore He could believe that God could control earth as well. The heavenly city is greater than the earthly city.

Forgive me for my false dichotomy of Old Covenant versus New, it was more to illustrate the point, not to categorize what Mauro said. I agree the New is greater because it has many greater spiritual benefits, the Law being written on our hearts. The question would be that every covenant given to Israel was given to the entire people, the Abrahamic (to you and your seed--yes, Paul makes the point that the seed is Christ, but in the OT this meant all Abe's descendants), the Palestinian (to all those who'd survived the wilderness), the Mosaic (to those coming out of Egypt), the Davidic (given to David before the split of the Northern and Southern kingdoms, i.e. one of his sons would reign over all the tribes of Israel) and the New (given to the house of Judah and Israel).

Like the Palestinian and the Mosaic covenants, the New covenant seems to be a covenant given as a promise to all Isreal and Judah. While I think it was inaugurated by Jesus, I think the fact that Hebrews re-quotes Jer. 31 that the New Covenant is to the house of Israel and Judah shows it's still a Jewish promise. Did the 2nd generation from the wilderness collectively enter Canaan as partakers of the Palestinian covenant? Yes. Did the entire generation coming from Egypt collectively agree to the Mosaic covenant? Yes. Do the promises to Abraham and David give promise to the nation collectively? Yes. In the same way, I think the New Covenant is also a collective promise to the entire nation. I don't see how it can have complete fulfillment in the generation of Jewish people who killed their Messiah and were scourged by the Romans.

Of course the New covenant as with any covenant is partially predicated on belief, although it has its ultimate unconditionality in God Himself. Just as He was the only one to establish the Abrahamic covenant (walk through the cut up animal pieces, Gen. 15) so the New Covenant has its application because of God's promise. I don't believe that just because someone is a physical Jew they have the New covenant promises, but I do believe that when they believe God will "write the law on their hearts" and they will all know God and have no need for anyone to teach them. Is this really completely fulfilled today? Do we have no need for anyone to teach us because we all know God? Don't we have pastor/teachers, evangelists, prophets, people who God uses to teach us? And the law being written on hearts carries the idea that the heart doesn't stray from the law, there's no need, the heart naturally follows the law in perfection. For this and many other reasons, I don't think we see the full fulfillment of the New Covenant.

Peace my friends, I feel like I'm just getting started in replying. Have to run to play some basketball.

 

[konroh]

Zech 14, 3 choices

1) that passage was literally by Jesus at His first Coming - using spiritual (figurative) language

a spiritualized hermeneutic which Zechariah's readers couldn't possibly have understood

God in Jer. 2:13 referred to Himself as the fountain of living waters, "they have forsaken me, the fountain of living
waters," for this reason, an OT reference which Zechariah's readers would have been familiar with, I see it possible that there is a spiritual meaning to Zech. 14's reference to living waters flowing from Jerusalem.

2) that passage was not fulfilled by the Lord's First Coming even though the other passages (see below) lead DIRECTLY TO THE COMING 70TH WEEK), and is about His Second Advent and eternity

The passages from Ezra and Nehemiah are interesting, but I don't think they fulfill Zechariah, which would require Jerusalem to be plundered, and then the nations that are left are coming up for the Feast of Tabernacles. We can't have the fulfillment of the nations coming for the Feast of Tabernacles before we have Jerusalem being plundered, which is why I don't see an AD 70 fulfillment here. Especially since in all these events we have Jesus standing on the Mt. of Olives, splitting them in two, coming in judgment with all His holy ones, reigning over every nation of the earth!

I'm not sure why seeing a future fulfillment for Zech. 14 means Daniel's 70 weeks never happened since they refer to 2 different events.

I don't have an explanation for the fulfillment of these verses:
6In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. 7For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.
When did this happen?

9And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be [the only] one, and His name [the only] one.
When was the Lord the only king of the whole earth?

10All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin's Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's wine presses. 11People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.

When were all these details fulfilled? When was Jerusalem ever a secure place?

12Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth. 13It will come about in that day that a great panic from the LORD will fall on them; and they will seize one another's hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another. 14Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance. 15So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps.
16Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. 18If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no [rain will fall] on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 19This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
20In that day there will [be inscribed] on the bells of the horses, "HOLY TO THE LORD." And the cooking pots in the LORD'S house will be like the bowls before the altar. 21Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts in that day.
Too, too much to say that this was literally or spiritually fulfilled. But I trust that God is still the way, the truth and the life, and this will still be fulfilled.

 

[zone]

...

i read all of your post.
much of it is the irreconcilable stuff between our respective hermeneutics.
i'm not going to post on most of it, since the core problem is simply that.

this part though, i believe reveals generally why we're not going to agree:

Like the Palestinian and the Mosaic covenants, the New covenant seems to be a covenant given as a promise to all Isreal and Judah. While I think it was inaugurated by Jesus, I think the fact that Hebrews re-quotes Jer. 31 that the New Covenant is to the house of Israel and Judah shows it's still a Jewish promise. Did the 2nd generation from the wilderness collectively enter Canaan as partakers of the Palestinian covenant? Yes. Did the entire generation coming from Egypt collectively agree to the Mosaic covenant? Yes. Do the promises to Abraham and David give promise to the nation collectively? Yes. In the same way, I think the New Covenant is also a collective promise to the entire nation. I don't see how it can have complete fulfillment in the generation of Jewish people who killed their Messiah and were scourged by the Romans.

the focus is on the entire nation (throughout all their generations no less) of ISRAEL.

instead of CHRIST.

why are people focused on people from Israel from thousands of years ago who did NOT enter the New Covenant..this is amazing to me.

just because SOME of Israel did not enter the New Covenant (CUT OFF), you make it (The New Covenant Fulfilled) null and void?

or "partially inaugurated"?

why? how can dispensationalists do this?

konroh....this is a terrible illustration but it's all i could find.

let's say this represents the whole house of Israel who was in the Land when Jesus came.
there were members from every tribe in the Land.
a remnant had returned. it's always about the remnant.

God was never (see Cain & Abel) obliged to save or include every single human being; whether they were physical Israel or not. He never, not one time (and not in Romans that dispensationalists just torture), said He was saving everyone.

.......

okay....so, we're at the time of restoration of the fallen tent of David, following the exile in Babylon....moving through the 70 weeks of Daniel.

we arrive at the 69th week - Jesus is there, He begins His ministry.

He was not sent but to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

the Gospel - for the Jew first, and also for the Gentile.

....

can we truly say at this point that anything like a Land Promise is what matters?
is that what God is concerned with?
are we focused on the entire nation (throughout all their generations no less) of ISRAEL?

of are we now focused on Jesus?

did Jesus fulfill the Law & the prophets?
He said He did.

that means ALL THE PROMISES that had come before. ALL.
the Law & the prophets were until John.

John comes....he is in the wilderness...away from the Temple...calling who? ISRAEL!
to do what?

repent and believe...believe what?
that Jesus was the King and Kinsman Redeemer; The Promised Messiah.... and that the Kingdom was HIM.

He said His Kingdom was not of this world.

He is in conflict with rebels within that group (Israel); and people within that group (Israel) He called robbers and thieves (the Pharisees; false prophets etc).....STILL ISRAEL. in the Land.

He is still ONLY in Israel (the Land of Israel). He is still only calling OUT a people for Himself.
He is still in the midst of Israel, in the Land, and He said CLEARLY that some of them were NOT His sheep.

so because many or even MOST rejected Him....does that mean the Kingdom was postponed?
or does it mean exactly what the entire OT said, repeatedly:

Isaiah 10:22
21A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. 22For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea, Only a remnant within them will return; A destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness. 23For a complete destruction, one that is decreed, the Lord GOD of hosts will execute in the midst of the whole land.…

did this happen just that way?
yes, exactly that way.


so here's the representation of ALL ISRAEL before the return:

choose one color....make that the remnant that returned.

now use the same illustration, for after the remnant (members from all 12 tribes) returned...this is the group of the remnant who returned to the Land in time for the Coming of the Christ (the temple is built etc):

choose a color.
only THOSE OF THAT COLOR received the Messiah.
again, only a remnant (of the remnant).

so we are seeing a whittling down of people God called and saved FROM ISRAEL. the remnant.

we are STILL in Israel, in The Land, with Christ.

we're down to a very small number now....just as Paul said:

Romans 9:27
Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

but look - Paul is not saying like Isaih that only a remnant will return...he's saying only a remnant (of that remnant that returned) WILL BE SAVED.

we're STILL In Israel, in the LAND, when Christ is there.
He has Finished the Work He came to do and has Ascended, and has sent the promise of the Father - The Holy Spirit, power from on High, for His chosen apostles and prophets.....who with Him laid the foundation of HIS CHURCH.

the Gospel tell us that.

many believed on Him, and many did not.
we're STILL in Israel, among the remnant who returned.

Still in Israel...we haven't left yet.
the disciples are now in Jerusalem (waiting for the Power from on High)...when MORE ISRAELITES (Jews) come from every nation under heaven, for Pentecost.

so though it looked like we were down to 120 people (plus the "many" who believed on Him as He was preaching in Person).....we now (after He is Ascended) have an INGATHERING....from the nations...but these are STILL JEWS (Israel):

Acts 2
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

this is still about Israel, the nation (people).
prior to this point, ALL ISRAEL had been narrowed down substantially....many unbelievers had already been CUT OFF...right?
they are NO LONGER HIS PEOPLE, which means they are NOT CALLED BY HIS NAME, because they did not believe He was the Messiah.

DOES THAT MEAN THE KINGDOM WAS POSTPONED? because many did not believe?

of course not! that would stop the clock on the 70 weeks!
that's preposterous.
the 70 weeks are already by this point if not fully complete, they are about to be FINISHED (this is simply a matter of fixing the marker that brought the 70th week to a close...which there's really no need to go into here...it's OVER.)

......

okay.....so we had ALL ISRAEL narrowed down to those WHO BELIEVED....right?

now we have the ingathering, Pentecost.

and what happened? MANY MORE BELIEVED.
we're STILL In Israel, in Jerusalem.
The Promise of the Spirit, the living waters is poured out, and that VERY DAY they hear the sermon by Peter and 3,000 souls are redeemed! in ONE DAY.

then what?

the Gospel is preached in every city IN ISRAEL, by the Apostles to Israel.

gentiles are getting saved as well.

so REMNANT ISRAEL IS EXPANDING....but is it ALL ISRAEL THE NATION, the children of the flesh ("we have Abraham for our father") who are saved? NO.

Romans 9
7nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

what promise?
the promise of adoption as sons based on FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.

Galatians 4
4But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

did EVERYONE in Israel receive that promise and were they redeemed?

NO! the Bible is clear on that.
does that mean the King couldn't be King or the Messiah could Redeem?
that's ridiculous.
if that's true, none of those who WERE saved got saved, and none of us are either!

......

so here were are, still in Israel.....the number of SPIRITUAL ISRAEL (who would later be called Christians) is GROWING...as is resistence and rebellion by the apostates....the apostates (flesh) are persecuting those born of the Spirit....STILL IN ISRAEL - STILL THE JEWS.....we have a DIVISION among the people of Israel - flesh vs Spirit!

exactly like Jesus said would happen.

(jumping ahead a tiny bit to the gentiles) - here's Paul making it crystal clear what was happening RE: ISRAEL - "spiritual Israel vs "flesh Israel":

Galatians 4
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

.....

what is he saying?

"But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now."

he's saying that STILL IN ISRAEL, those who were NOT born again of the Spirit were persecuting those who were (he is including the gentiles here in the persecution - this letter is a WARNING about trying to gain righteousness before God according to the Law/Old Covenant)

and that those who were, LIKE ISAAC (BORN MIRACULOUSLY BY THE SPIRIT ACCORDING TO A PROMISE ...not by the natural means or power of Abraham, since Sarah was barren...God intentionally waited to perform this SO THAT He could illustrate what Paul is talking about....yes, that LITERALLY HAPPENED, and it was Spiritual, but it was a TYPE of Christ, and a TYPE of the new birth, the people who would be SPIRITUAL ISRAEL/Isaac/Jacob) being persecuted by the NATURAL sons - LIKE ISHMAEL.

and look what Paul is saying about Jerusalem of his own day:

Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother

so who is "SPIRITUALIZING?`God is!

.........

so far, we havent left the subject of Israel the nation!
this has not even involved the broader calling of the gentiles yet (which was always the Plan, and had been announced to Abraham way back in Genesis 3!)

SO THEN WHAT?...we know we already have a NEW COVENANT in place, in Christ's Blood.
He has completely abolished the Old Covenant - it is no longer recognized by God AT ALL. over.

He has made the once for all time sacrifice, h
He has fulfilled EVERYTHING for Israel (who believed; and believes) that Daniel was told He would do.
the 70 weeks are coming to a close......


next - just briefly, the calling of the gentiles...who: like Isaac, are children of promise.
remember, Israel received what she was promised.

choose a color - out of that nation came forth a remnant, children of PROMISE....that remnant grew as they heard the Good News of the New Covenant, and the gentiles began to be grafted in - TO THE ISRAEL OF GOD.....

 

[SarahM777]

Never mind that Jesus Himself tells us who Abraham's children are. Jesus never said the Pharisees were NOT DESCENDED from Abraham.

John 8

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence,and you are doing what you have heard from your father.[b]”
39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[c] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me,for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil,and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

John the Baptist said this

Luke 3

7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

 

[zone]

and there we have it.
really, for the life of me i can not understand why the focus is on people who REJECTED Jesus instead of those who didnt.

 

[zone]

Zech 14, 3 choices
a spiritualized hermeneutic which Zechariah's readers couldn't possibly have understood

well they DID.
they actually did what was prophesied they would do.
they returned to the land and rebuilt the temple - which was NOT GOD`S ULTIMATE PLAN....that Temple and system was not THE PLAN but got thwarted....it was the END of the Old and the KRISIS for the New.

or....do you think it was....do you think He planned to set up His throne in that jerusalem but couldnt

i know some dispensationalists believe God didnt foresee Jesus being rejected and Crucified, but used it to call out the Mystery Church Parenthesis - He has a thorough-going change of plans!

this is amazing.
and totally bizarre and ends up denying Jesus is The Christ.

 

[konroh]

I really appreciate the response and the teaching of the remnant of the Jews. As I see it, we do have different hermeneutics in play, but I think we can learn from each other. As I see it, many OT passages like Zech. 14 and all the prosperity promises of Isaiah and Ezekiel and the physical kingdom promised to David have to be spiritualized in order for them to be fulfilled now. That is an interpretation I'm not comfortable with because it destroys the ability to interpret the Bible plainly. I firmly believe that we can look back at the OT thru the lense of the NT and see new things, like looking at an object through a telescope and getting the broader perspective, but it can't change what was originally seen in the OT. I also think that we limit the true meaning of the New Covenant when we do this.
33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

This shows every person having such an intimate relationship to God that there are no teachers. While I believe that the Holy Spirit can teach every Christian today, is this really fully fulfilled? We don't learn from each other because we all know the Lord and have the law written on our hearts?

37Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the LORD.

An eternal promise to the offspring of Israel. I don't want the focus to be on a Jewish people who didn't believe, but I do want the focus to be on the eternal reliability of the promises of God.

38"They shall be My people, and I will be their God; 39and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for [the good of] their children after them. 40"I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me. 41"I will rejoice over them to do them good and will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul.

Fr. Jer. 32, notice how their relationship to God is an everlasting covenant, and the promise is that they will not turn away from God, ever! And then it's tied into being planted "in this land" promised by God with all His heart and all His soul!

And I really do appreciate the understanding of the remnant, I think there are clear implications in all of Jesus teaching, as well as the OT prophets about a remnant. But I also think there are implications about "all the remnant" being saved. The basis of remnant theology stems from the captivity of the Israelites. While God sternly warned that Israel and Judah would be punished, He promised that a remnant would return. It was to that remnant that the promises of the New Covenant was given, and yet the words are wholistic, "To the house of Israel and the house of Judah." So even though the people Jeremiah was ministering to were not going to be the remnant, they had hope that there would be a remnant, and that all of this remnant would receive the promise of the New Covenant.

Jesus response to Pilate that his kingdom was not of this world surely doesn't mean that Jesus has nothing to do with earth, His kingdom is not of earthly origin. If Christ's kingdom was only spiritual, why didn't he chide the disciples in Acts 1 and say, My kingdom is spiritual, don't you understand that? They were clearly asking about a physical kingdom, believing the promises of the OT to restore national Israel.
Lord, dost thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? 7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father hath set within His own authority.

I fully understand the remnant theology of Rom. 9, but notice the progression through ch. 11. Ch. 10, Paul wanting all Israel to be saved: 1Brethren, my heart's desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved. And then clearly Paul says in ch. 11:1I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 11I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.12Now if their fall, is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; 14if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them. 15For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be , but life from the dead? ... how much more shall these, which are the natural branches , be grafted into their own olive tree?

So what do we have here? God has not cast off His people, there is a fulness yet to come, there is a receiving of them that will bring life from the dead, there is a re-grafting in to their own olive tree.

that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;

26and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins.

So there is a hardening in part but then all Israel shall be saved. Notice that Paul quotes the New Covenant words, When I shall take away their sins. He quotes this as a future promise! How can this possibly be a future promise if it's already completely fulfilled now. Paul didn't believe it was. It was 2 chapters ago that Paul referred to a spiritual Israel, since then he repeatedly refers to Israel as the physical people, so too here

28As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers'sake. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of. 30For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience, 31even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they also may now obtain mercy. 32For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.

Israel is still beloved of God for their father's sake, all Gentiles have been shown mercy, so too all Jews have been shown mercy.

Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother

Paul's point in Gal. is that the Judaizers were actually in slavery to the OT law, and the Gal. Christians were actually children of freedom. The entire argument is that we are justified by faith, not by works of the Law. Yes, Paul makes the point that a true child of promise is one who believes, but he makes this last allegorical case as the weakest of his arguments. He first appeals to the Galatian's experience, then to the argument from Abraham, then to an extensive argument from the words of the Law and the nature of the Law pointing to Christ, then to Paul's own personal testimony, and finally, an allegorical argument where Paul seems to use the Judaizers hermeneutic to show that the Gal. were children of freedom. The nature of the way Paul uses this argument does not negate taking the original OT words literally, Paul's point is that we can be children of promise and live in freedom.

‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Of course it's important to have faith like Abraham had faith and not rely on one's lineage. No one who is only a physical descendant of Israel will be saved without having faith. But this is God's promise 4who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God , and the promises; 5whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[konroh]

You brought up Dan. 9 so I'll touch on it. 26"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end [will come] with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations [will come] one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

To me this passage clearly has Messiah the prince cut off after the 62 weeks after Jerusalem had been rebuilt. Then we have the reference to Jerusalem being destroyed, which we all agree is in AD 70. Your understanding of the text then rewinds to referring to the 70th week, my understanding of the text reads the text more naturally in at least three ways. One, there is no rewind. After referring to the Messiah being cut off, the text refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, then it refers to the 70th week. After putting the order of the weeks so specifically, it is unnatural to see a rewind here. Beginning of the weeks clearly defined, decree, 1st 7 weeks, 49 years to rebuilding of Jerusalem, next 62 weeks to Messiah prince, then He's cut off, then Jerusalem destroyed--a natural conclusion since the 1st 7 weeks has Jerusalem being rebuilt. Then we have the "he will make a covenant," beginning of the 70th week.
Secondly, the "he will make a covenant" naturally refers to its closest antecedent, "the prince who is to come of the people who destroyed the city." To make this refer to Messiah unnaturally misconstrues the natural grammar of the text.
Thirdly, the divine destruction is then poured out on the one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." This is God's wrath being poured out on the Messiah? Clearly not, it's God's wrath being poured out on the one who make the covenant, the desolator, the one coming on the wing of abominations, the antichrist.

 

[zone]

I really appreciate the response and the teaching of the remnant of the Jews. As I see it, we do have different hermeneutics in play, but I think we can learn from each other. As I see it, many OT passages like Zech. 14 and all the prosperity promises of Isaiah and Ezekiel and the physical kingdom promised to David have to be spiritualized in order for them to be fulfilled now. That is an interpretation I'm not comfortable with because it destroys the ability to interpret the Bible plainly. I firmly believe that we can look back at the OT thru the lense of the NT and see new things, like looking at an object through a telescope and getting the broader perspective, but it can't change what was originally seen in the OT.

I also think that we limit the true meaning of the New Covenant when we do this.

33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgivetheir iniquity,and their sinI will remembernomore."

This shows every person having such an intimate relationship to God that there are no teachers. While I believe that the Holy Spirit can teach every Christian today, is this really fully fulfilled? We don't learn from each other because we all know the Lord and have the law written on our hearts?

well, i don't think it's saying no teachers.
it's true, we have all the scripture God is going to give us now, and we have the Holy Spirit as our Guide in the scriptures.

but we should place these prophecies in their historical contexts...and we see (in red) what Jeremiah is looking forward to.


Nehemiah 8
13Then on the second day the heads of fathers' households of all the people, the priests and the Levites were gathered to Ezra the scribe that they might gain insight into the words of the law. 14They found written in the law how the LORD had commanded through Moses that the sons of Israel should live in booths during the feast of the seventh month. 15So they proclaimed and circulated a proclamation in all their cities and in Jerusalem, saying, "Go out to the hills, and bring olive branches and wild olive branches, myrtle branches, palm branches and branches of other leafy trees, to make booths, as it is written."



Verse 14. - And they found written. The practice of "dwelling in booths," commanded in Leviticus 23:42, had fallen into disuse, probably during the captivity, and though the feast itself had been revived by Zerubbabel (Ezra 3:4), yet this feature of it, from which it derived its name, had remained in abeyance. - Pulpit


there they are finding the Law again!
they're in Babylon, and they're rediscovering what the Lord commanded Moses

would they have been in Babylon saying "Know the Lord"? - each man teaching his neighbor and his brother?

what's happening here?:

the priests and the Levites were gathered to Ezra the scribe that they might gain insight into the words of the law.

so the restoration (one last time according to the Old Covenant) is taking shape already.

....

then what happens?

33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."


well that fixes the time.

still about the Hebrews (Israel):

Hebrews 8
Jesus, High Priest of a Better Covenant
1Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2a minister in the holy places, in the true tenta that the Lord set up, not man. 3For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.” 6But as it is, Christb has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

8For he finds fault with them when he says:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”

13In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Jeremiah 50:20
In those days, at that time," declares the LORD, "search will be made for Israel's guilt, but there will be none, and for the sins of Judah, but none will be found, for I will forgive the remnant I spare.

Romans 11:27
And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

Hebrews 10
14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

16“THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,
AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,”

He then says,

17“AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS
I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.”

18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

so what did Israel not receive?
ANYTHING?

Hebrews 10
A New and Living Way
19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

Hebrews 12
Contrast of Sinai and Zion

18For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20For they could not bear the command, “IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED.” 21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling.” 22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

The Unshaken Kingdom

25See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, “YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN.” 27This expression, “Yet once more,” denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29for our God is a consuming fire.

 

[konroh]

You seem to be saying that the New Covenant had partial fulfillment after the captivity in Ezra and Nehemiah, but full fulfillment in the time of Jesus. What's fascinating is that we are in partial agreement, I would say that we are seeing partial fulfillment now, with full fulfillment in the future. When it says there will be no teachers, I think this is explicit, each one will know God intimately, law written on hearts and minds, and while there is inauguration now, we don't see the full realization of these promises.

Nowhere in Hebrews is there warrant for making the house of Israel and Judah as spiritual descendants, not physical. So while Hebrew's author explicitly quotes Jer. 31 he makes it clear that this is still a promise to the people of Israel. Having fulfillment now, absolutely. Having completed fulfillment now? Even the author of Hebrews references that Jesus still has His second coming where all His enemies will be put under His feet and He will consummate our salvation.

23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn references all those who had died since Christ, it does not reference OT saints.

I can agree that Disp. in its preference to see future fulfillment has downplayed the present reality, which Hebrews makes abundantly clear. We can come to the throne boldly in prayer and expectation because our great mediator has taken away our sins permenantly by means of a better covenant, a better priesthood, a better sacrifice. This is a promise to Jew and Gentile, we are participants together. But I find it interesting that Apollos (Heb. possible author) quotes Jer. 31 but then when he requotes it as a promise to us, notice the difference. Ch. 8:

"BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;

10"FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

Then when Apollos requotes in Heb. 10:

16"THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," [He then says],
17"AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

Apollos specifically leaves out the idea that this promise was to the house of Israel and Judah, yet he was clear the first time. It's not that Apollos is saying that we have become the Israel of God, or spiritual descendants of Israel, in fact nowhere in the entire book of Hebrews is this idea found. What is true is that the Church mysteriously enters into the New Covenant which was promised to the house of Israel and Judah. This doesn't nullify who the promise was originally given to, nor change the meaning of the fulfillment, that this will be fulfilled to the house of Israel and Judah.

I fully recognize that my interpretation of the NT probably seems like it is not wholistic enough for you. What actually is agreed upon by almost all sides is that there still seems to be promises given to Israel that have not been fulfilled. There are Covenant theologians who see this, Amillenial and Post-millenial theorists who see this, Presbyterian, Baptist, Evangelical and Lutherans who all cannot get away from Paul's clear teaching in Rom. 9-11. There is of course disagreement on the nature of these promises, but no matter what one's eschatology, many see that God still has a plan for Israel. This comes not only from a natural understanding of the New Testament, but also from a natural, literal understanding of the OT. In fact, Old Testament scholars are nearly unanimously against the spiritualizing of the prophecies given in the OT.

But I'm sure we can agree

20Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, [even] Jesus our Lord, 21equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom [be] the glory forever and ever. Amen.

May we be so equipped.

 

[zone]

To me this passage clearly has Messiah the prince cut off after the 62 weeks after Jerusalem had been rebuilt. Then we have the reference to Jerusalem being destroyed, which we all agree is in AD 70. Your understanding of the text then rewinds to referring to the 70th week, my understanding of the text reads the text more naturally in at least three ways. One, there is no rewind. After referring to the Messiah being cut off, the text refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, then it refers to the 70th week. After putting the order of the weeks so specifically, it is unnatural to see a rewind here. Beginning of the weeks clearly defined, decree, 1st 7 weeks, 49 years to rebuilding of Jerusalem, next 62 weeks to Messiah prince, then He's cut off, then Jerusalem destroyed--a natural conclusion since the 1st 7 weeks has Jerusalem being rebuilt. Then we have the "he will make a covenant," beginning of the 70th week.


Secondly, the "he will make a covenant" naturally refers to its closest antecedent, "the prince who is to come of the people who destroyed the city." To make this refer to Messiah unnaturally misconstrues the natural grammar of the text.


Thirdly, the divine destruction is then poured out on the one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

This is God's wrath being poured out on the Messiah? Clearly not, it's God's wrath being poured out on the one who make the covenant, the desolator, the one coming on the wing of abominations, the antichrist.

konroh;
the destruction that was decreed is NOT included within the 70 weeks.
it was included in Daniel's prophecy, but NOT within the 70 weeks.

the destruction came 40 years later.

here's the decree (which God foreknew and revealed to Daniel...right?) - uttered inside/within the 70th week, by the Most Holy:

Matthew 28
37"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38"Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Luke 19
43"For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation."

Matthew 24:2
"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

Mark 13:2
"Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

Luke 21:6
"As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down."

...

if you just read it for what it is - 70 weeks to accomplish the list of things Jesus came and did....and realize daniel was shown even beyond that to what it was that made him SICK, it's clear.

the prince who came (Titus) brought his people (the Roman armies) and Jerusalem was left desolate.
there's just no gap at all.

70 weeks are determined.

not indeterminate. determined. defined. set down. time-specific, for Daniel's people and for the city - Jerusalem.
he was in babylon. he knew jeremiah's prophecy and wanted to know what was going to happen at the end of the CAPTIVITY.

for Israel, (nothwithstanding the Messiah having come, Amen) nothing at all in their history (with the possible exception of the exodus from Egypt) even comes close to their exile to Babylon and release. nothing.

yet it's like that period is a black hole in our understanding.
we just skip right over it all.

the great Image of Man with the head of gold down to the roman empire (of Christ's day) is looked at several different ways in daniel. it's the same kingdoms over and over...just different details added.

it's so compact and filled with verifiable fulfillment (both within the NT; from the OT and in history), it's impossible to not Give God the Glory - having brought it all to pass exactly...to the person; date; time and event.

i'm still working through the historical details....it's incredible.

 

[earlyedition]

I am saved and I KNOW IT. tHE RAPTURE IS REAL jESUS WILL ONE DAY COME ON A CLOUD WE WILL MEET HIM IN THE AIR. tO SAY YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT GOD WILL ONE DAY COME AND TAKE HIS CHILDREN HOME PROVES YOU DID NOT TRUELY GET SAVED. yES THE UNSAVED WILL BE LEFT BEHIND TO ENDURE 7 YEARS OF TRIBULATION. PRAISE GOD I'M SAVED AND ON MY WAY TO HEAVEN.

 

[HeIsNowHere]

You should not fear anything that kills your body on this earth. However, after death is judgment and every one of us will stand
before the King and Creator of the Universe and give an account of EVERYTHING we have said and done. This is what should bring concern to men. Yet, the Christmas gift given is Jesus Christ who has a pardon for you at that. Only those who are pardoned by receiving the free GIFT from Him will be saved. Everyone else will be condemned. They are condemned because they rejected the savior.

 

[PlainWord]

This verse from Mat 24:

5 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

Does NOT relate to this verse from Daniel 9:

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

It relates to these verses from Daniel 11:

31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits.

If we look back to Dan 10...

14 Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision refers to many days yet to come."

...we see that Daniel is now speaking of the latter days, a gap of nearly 2,000 years have occurred between Dan 9:27 and Dan 11:31. Notice also, Jesus clearly used the term, "Abomination of Desolation" in Mat 24. This term is not found in Dan 9:27. But it is found exactly in Dan 11.

Thus the 70 weeks of Daniel were completed back in AD 70.

We are now in a new period as discussed in Dan 11-12, the latter days.

 

[PlainWord]

I am saved and I KNOW IT. tHE RAPTURE IS REAL jESUS WILL ONE DAY COME ON A CLOUD WE WILL MEET HIM IN THE AIR. tO SAY YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT GOD WILL ONE DAY COME AND TAKE HIS CHILDREN HOME PROVES YOU DID NOT TRUELY GET SAVED. yES THE UNSAVED WILL BE LEFT BEHIND TO ENDURE 7 YEARS OF TRIBULATION. PRAISE GOD I'M SAVED AND ON MY WAY TO HEAVEN.

Sorry friend but this view is absolutely utter nonsense and is false doctrine. You cannot find a single passage in the Bible that teaches the core "Rapture" teachings of:

1. Jesus returning BEFORE the Tribulation
2. Jesus translating the living when He returns
3. Jesus returning to heaven AFTER He returns
4. Jesus taking anyone off to heaven to sit out the Tribulation

I'm sorry, but you, and millions of others, have been misled into a false sense of security by ignorant pastors who teach what they want to believe rather than the Word of God as it is written.

I don't want to sound harsh but this Rapture doctrine is extremely dangerous and Satan will make full use of it to deceive a "Great Multitude" of Christians in the very near future. The False Prophet is already here and doing Satan's work for 9 months now and in 33 months, the False Messiah will appear. Woe to those who believe in a "Fly Away to Heaven myth."

 

[zone]

You seem to be saying that the New Covenant had partial fulfillment after the captivity in Ezra and Nehemiah, but full fulfillment in the time of Jesus..

no, i don't think i was saying that. just trying to show that the exile and return is crucial to closing those gaps.

the New Covenant was confirmed (as being fulfilled) by Jesus to those in Israel, to whom He was sent.

Matthew 26
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

What's fascinating is that we are in partial agreement, I would say that we are seeing partial fulfillment now, with full fulfillment in the future. When it says there will be no teachers, I think this is explicit, each one will know God intimately, law written on hearts and minds, and while there is inauguration now, we don't see the full realization of these promises.

each one -as in every single person on earth?
then why will any not be saved?

the Spirit was poured out, Who would lead them (and us) in the way of Truth, by testifying about Jesus Christ of whom the prophets and the Law testified.

Nowhere in Hebrews is there warrant for making the house of Israel and Judah as spiritual descendants, not physical.

?
okay - this i just simple do not get.
nobody i know had ever said Israel and Judah (which were One House through Christ btw) were not flesh & blood people.
they were. literally flesh and blood like you and i.

but being natural descendants of Abraham did not guarantee that they all came to Christ.
we know many did not.

the ones who did, how can you say they would not be spiritual descendants?
what is a spiritual descendant, if not those in Israel who received the promise of the Spirit?



Matthew 3:9
And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Romans 4:13
It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Romans 4:16
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Romans 8:14
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

how would they come to not be teaching every man his neighbor saying Know the Lord?:

Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

So while Hebrew's author explicitly quotes Jer. 31 he makes it clear that this is still a promise to the people of Israel. Having fulfillment now, absolutely. Having completed fulfillment now? Even the author of Hebrews references that Jesus still has His second coming where all His enemies will be put under His feet and He will consummate our salvation.

well....okay.
but don't you have to be born again?
like....they were first called Christians at Antioch.
of course the New Covenant is fulfilled - for whomsoever will.

jews and gentiles are on level ground outside Christ, konroh.

just as In Christ there is no distinction.

23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn references all those who had died since Christ, it does not reference OT saints.

but go to chapter 11.

I can agree that Disp. in its preference to see future fulfillment has downplayed the present reality, which Hebrews makes abundantly clear. We can come to the throne boldly in prayer and expectation because our great mediator has taken away our sins permenantly by means of a better covenant, a better priesthood, a better sacrifice. This is a promise to Jew and Gentile, we are participants together. But I find it interesting that Apollos (Heb. possible author) quotes Jer. 31 but then when he requotes it as a promise to us, notice the difference. Ch. 8:

"BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;

10"FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

Then when Apollos requotes in Heb. 10:

16"THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," [He then says],
17"AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

Apollos specifically leaves out the idea that this promise was to the house of Israel and Judah, yet he was clear the first time. It's not that Apollos is saying that we have become the Israel of God, or spiritual descendants of Israel, in fact nowhere in the entire book of Hebrews is this idea found. What is true is that the Church mysteriously enters into the New Covenant which was promised to the house of Israel and Judah. .

nah...you're forced to read that in there because of the Mystery Gap Church presupposition...close the gaps.
the Book is to THE HEBREWS

if they did not receive everything they were promised, we have NOTHING either.

This doesn't nullify who the promise was originally given to, nor change the meaning of the fulfillment, that this will be fulfilled to the house of Israel and Judah.

it WAS fulfilled.
they were joined into One Fold in Christ's day...He was sent to them and those who entered in - ENTERED IN.
those who did not become one in Christ; who did not enter by He Who was the Gate of the sheep, were cut off.
i didn't write it.

that's what happened. they got nearly years of desperate preaching from city to city (REPENT AND BE RECONCILED TO GOD! SAVE YOURSELVES FROM THIS WICKED GENERATION!...etc)...then what?

when you (THEY) see the AOD spoken by Daniel...get out! desolation is coming on.....the Harlot.

but Paul said IF THEY continued NOT in unbelief, they could be grafted in.
what happens if you continue not in unbelief? - you become followers of That Way, which sect first were called christians at Antioch. you proclaim that Jesus is The Christ, the son of the Living God, and:

Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.




if national (physical) Israel (gathered together into one house in Christ & through pentecost, together with the gentiles who all make up ONE FOLD) did not receive what she was promised, who gave us the NT 2000 years ago?

did any of them become spiritual israel? well ya...and the gentiles are grafted in, and as many as boast in The Cross of Jesus Christ and are a new creation are the Israel of God.

I fully recognize that my interpretation of the NT probably seems like it is not wholistic enough for you. What actually is agreed upon by almost all sides is that there still seems to be promises given to Israel that have not been fulfilled.

like what though? what is it that has not been fulfilled - aside from whatever number are going to be saved are saved?
just like everyone else.

Question:

will anyone be saved who does not acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ?

if not, and if we realize that even not ALL Israel that was in the land when Jesus was there in Person were saved, we have to take another look at what Paul meant by:

and in this way...all Israel shall be saved.

the answer is in "in this way" and it is directly related to the a remnant, saved by grace, called BY THE GOSPEL.

that's the mystery. the Gospel.

what will their inclusion (if they continue not in unbelief) be....but LIFE FROM THE DEAD?

that's what Paul is saying. not that God is juggling two covenants, but that He is saving SOME PEOPLE through the Gospel.

There are Covenant theologians who see this, Amillenial and Post-millenial theorists who see this, Presbyterian, Baptist, Evangelical and Lutherans who all cannot get away from Paul's clear teaching in Rom. 9-11. There is of course disagreement on the nature of these promises, but no matter what one's eschatology, many see that God still has a plan for Israel. This comes not only from a natural understanding of the New Testament, but also from a natural, literal understanding of the OT. In fact, Old Testament scholars are nearly unanimously against the spiritualizing of the prophecies given in the OT.

well, these promises are exactly the same promises you now have and hold dear, and exactly the same promises you look forward to, whether you fall asleep or when the Lord comes - eternal life.

that all.

as for OT scholars saying not to "spiritualize" the OT prophecies, i have no idea what this means.
maybe you can link me to a source.

 

[zone]

Amos 9:15 says the Jews would return from captivity and "never again be uprooted from their land." They were uprooted many times. To say that God said this to the captives, but His meaning was that they would never be uprooted from a spiritual land makes a mockery of the words of Scripture, in my humble opinion. To me it's the equivalent of us going to heaven and Jesus saying to us, "When I said I was coming back for you, I didn't mean it literally or physically, I meant it spiritually. See, you're spiritually here with me now, it's all good."

okay.

remember: we absolutely can not spiritualize any of this.


Amos 9
The Destruction of Israel
1I saw the Lord standing besidea the altar, and he said:

“Strike the capitals until the thresholds shake,
and shatter them on the heads of all the people;b
and those who are left of them I will kill with the sword;
not one of them shall flee away;
not one of them shall escape.

2 “If they dig into Sheol,
from there shall my hand take them;
if they climb up to heaven,
from there I will bring them down.
3 If they hide themselves on the top of Carmel,
from there I will search them out and take them;
and if they hide from my sight at the bottom of the sea,
there I will command the serpent, and it shall bite them.
4 And if they go into captivity before their enemies,
there I will command the sword, and it shall kill them;
and I will fix my eyes upon them
for evil and not for good.”

5 The Lord GOD of hosts,
he who touches the earth and it melts,
and all who dwell in it mourn,
and all of it rises like the Nile,
and sinks again, like the Nile of Egypt;
6 who builds his upper chambers in the heavens
and founds his vault upon the earth;
who calls for the waters of the sea
and pours them out upon the surface of the earth—
the LORD is his name.

7 “Are you not like the Cushites to me,
O people of Israel?” declares the LORD.
“Did I not bring up Israel from the land of Egypt,
and the Philistines from Caphtor and the Syrians from Kir?
8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom,
and I will destroy it from the surface of the ground,
except that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob,”
declares the LORD.

9 “For behold, I will command,
and shake the house of Israel among all the nations
as one shakes with a sieve,
but no pebble shall fall to the earth.
10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword,
who say, ‘Disaster shall not overtake or meet us.’


okay.

then what?


The Restoration of Israel
11 “In that day I will raise up
the booth of David that is fallen
and repair its breaches,
and raise up its ruins
and rebuild it as in the days of old,
12 that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations who are called by my name,”
declares the LORD who does this.

13 “Behold, the days are coming,” declares the LORD,
“when the plowman shall overtake the reaper
and the treader of grapes him who sows the seed;
the mountains shall drip sweet wine,
and all the hills shall flow with it.
14 I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel,
and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them;
they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine,
and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant them on their land,
and they shall never again be uprooted
out of the land that I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.

.....


wait....James spiritualized Amos.

and what are those Israelite Apostles doing going OUTSIDE the Land of Israel with the promise?
the Promise to Abraham is being fulfilled.

Acts 15
The Jerusalem Council
1But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. 3So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.a 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

6The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

12And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 14Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

16 “‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will restore it,
17 that the remnantb of mankind may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who makes these things 18known from of old.’

19Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers
22Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, 23with the following letter: “The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothersc who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. 24Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled youd with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, 25it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26men who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

30So when they were sent off, they went down to Antioch, and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter. 31And when they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement. 32And Judas and Silas, who were themselves prophets, encouraged and strengthened the brothers with many words. 33And after they had spent some time, they were sent off in peace by the brothers to those who had sent them.e 35But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.

Paul and Barnabas Separate
36And after some days Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us return and visit the brothers in every city where we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they are.” 37Now Barnabas wanted to take with them John called Mark. 38But Paul thought best not to take with them one who had withdrawn from them in Pamphylia and had not gone with them to the work. 39And there arose a sharp disagreement, so that they separated from each other. Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus, 40but Paul chose Silas and departed, having been commended by the brothers to the grace of the Lord. 41And he went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

 

[konroh]

Where I would say we have a disagreement in hermeneutic is that the OT is very picturesque, using lots of figurative language, lots of metaphors, but the meaning can still be very clear. I think the OT references physical and spiritual realities and it is these that shouldn't be mixed up. There are times when we combine these ideas, and rightly so, but there are also times we should take the language for what it is.

I understand that the return from captivity is a key period in Israel's history, but what I have a problem with is the idea that all the promised blessing that so many prophets refer to was fulfilled in this time period. The blessing is too much. We have a definitive disagreement on the fulfillment of the 70 weeks, I don't understand the idea that there is a rewind in the prophecy, that the destruction takes place after the 70 weeks are fulfilled, you don't like the understanding of a gap. I think where we have major misunderstandings is that I think there is so much developmental fulfillment. While I do think the remnant return from captivity pictures prosperity, there doesn't seem to be ultimate fulfillment in that, as we would both agree. To you the fulfillment is now, spiritually, to me the fulfillment has to be culminated in the future because so much of the language pictures physical realities.

11 “In that day I will raise up
the booth of David that is fallen
and repair its breaches,
and raise up its ruins
and rebuild it as in the days of old,
12 that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations who are called by my name,”
declares the LORD who does this.

13 “Behold, the days are coming,” declares the LORD,
“when the plowman shall overtake the reaper
and the treader of grapes him who sows the seed;
the mountains shall drip sweet wine,
and all the hills shall flow with it.
14 I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel,
and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them;
they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine,
and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant them on their land,
and they shall never again be uprooted
out of the land that I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.

Also, I think Jesus looked at the future destruction of Jerusalem as a picture of the ultimate future destruction by the Antichrist. I think Jesus did exactly what Daniel did. Daniel speaks of the abomination of desolation by Antioches Epiphanes in 185 BC but then Daniel also pictures a future abomination, which is still future, where the little horn exalts himself above every name that is named (Dan. 11:36). In the same way, Jesus pictured the future destruction of Jerusalem taking place in that generation, but also looked to the ultimate end when He comes judging all those who dishonored Him.

But can we really say that Amos 9 was fulfilled in the captivity or that it is only spiritually fulfilled now? Extreme economic and agricultural prosperity and physical land. Did the nation of Israel ever possess all the nations that are called by the Lord's name? And the booth of David being restored has the idea that the combined North and South kingdoms will once again be united. This is the only way the booth of David can be restored.

James absolutely did not spiritualize Amos. James says that the prophet Amos agreed that Gentiles should also experience God's favor and he saw clear warrant for including them. But James specifically does not say this fulfills the prophet Amos, just that it agrees. In fact, James lack of a fulfillment formula, and Luke's lack of it as well is very telling. No where else does Luke ever just say the prophet agrees, he either says, "for it is written," or uses the word "fulfill."
Lk 24:46
46and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,

Acts 1
20“For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:

“ ‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’[SUP]e[/SUP]and,


“ ‘May another take his place of leadership.’[SUP]f[/SUP]



Acts 3:18But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer.

"But God turned away and delivered them up to serve the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, 'IT WAS NOT TO ME THAT YOU OFFERED VICTIMS AND SACRIFICES FORTY YEARS IN THE WILDERNESS, WAS IT, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL?

"When they had carried out all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb.

48“However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands; as the prophet says: 49‘HEAVEN IS MY THRONE,
AND EARTH IS THE FOOTSTOOL OF MY FEET;
WHAT KIND OF HOUSE WILL YOU BUILD FOR ME?’ says the Lord,
‘OR WHAT PLACE IS THERE FOR MY REPOSE?


Normally, the formula would be, "and this fulfills the words of the prophets," or more simply, just saying, "as it is written." But James uses the Greek word symphoneo, literally, in harmony with, like a symphony. Amos is in harmony with the idea of Gentiles being in God's favor. This is not James saying that every aspect of what Amos wrote is now being fulfilled, that wine is dripping from the mountains, that the Davidic kingdom is restored in all its prosperity, that Israel would never again be uprooted from their land. He simply says that we shouldn't prevent Gentiles from enjoying God's favor, even Amos agrees.

15“With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16‘AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,


I don't think James believed that all of Amos was fulfilled, just like I don't think that the writer of Hebrews believes that all of the New covenant was fulfilled to the house of Israel.

 

[konroh]

We do have a fundamental disagreement as to the beginning of the Church. Christ built His church sometime after Matt. 16 and in keeping with the promise of sending the Holy Spirit. If we don't agree on this, then many other things will be in dispute. We cannot have the form of the church without its function or vice versa. Here are 5 predominant English translations of Heb. 12:22

22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven.

22No, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to countless thousands of angels in a joyful gathering. 23You have come to the assembly of God’s firstborn children,

22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23and to the assembly[SUP]a[/SUP] of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven,

22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven,

22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,

Only one actually seems to not link general assembly with the myriads of angels. The assembly is the angels, the church of the firstborn ones are the saints. Having previously mentioned all the OT saints who are the great cloud of witnesses, Apollos now seems to make a distinction between the OT saints and the New Testament saints who come to a heavenly Jerusalem, where all the OT saints were coming to a physical Jerusalem. So the church saints are the saints who died since Christ came, those after Pentecost.

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Paul clearly references the mystery of Israel being blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles, this was previously unrevealed, a mystery, the Church was previously unrevealed, a mystery. But the implication is that when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in then the partial hardening of Israel will end, and all Israel will be saved. Not of course without believing, they will have to believe. How can they be enemies of the gospel but beloved of God according to election? How? Only because they are a promised people by nature of who they are. Because God's calling and choosing is irrevocable. As Gentiles did not believe but now have received mercy, so now Israel does not believe but in the fullness of the Gentiles receiving mercy they too will receive mercy, believe and be saved. In this way all Israel will be saved, enjoy the New Covenant, and God will have shown mercy to all.

 

[Elin]

Where I would say we have a disagreement in hermeneutic is that the OT is very picturesque, using lots of figurative language, lots of metaphors, but the meaning can still be very clear. I think the OT references physical and spiritual realities and it is these that shouldn't be mixed up. There are times when we combine these ideas, and rightly so, but there are also times we should take the language for what it is.

So God inspired the Bible unclearly in clear spots, and you are inspired to see the clear spots.

I understand that the return from captivity is a key period in Israel's history, but what I have a problem with is the idea that all the promised blessing that so many prophets refer to was fulfilled in this time period. The blessing is too much. We have a definitive disagreement on the fulfillment of the 70 weeks, I don't understand the idea that there is a rewind in the prophecy, that the destruction takes place after the 70 weeks are fulfilled, you don't like the understanding of a gap. I think where we have major misunderstandings is that I think there is so much developmental fulfillment. While I do think the remnant return from captivity pictures prosperity, there doesn't seem to be ultimate fulfillment in that, as we would both agree. To you the fulfillment is now, spiritually, to me the fulfillment has to be culminated in the future because so much of the language pictures physical realities.

11 “In that day I will raise up
the booth of David that is fallen
and repair its breaches,
and raise up its ruins
and rebuild it as in the days of old,
12 that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations who are called by my name,”
declares the LORD who does this.

13 “Behold, the days are coming,” declares the LORD,
“when the plowman shall overtake the reaper
and the treader of grapes him who sows the seed;
the mountains shall drip sweet wine,
and all the hills shall flow with it.
14 I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel,
and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them;
they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine,
and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant them on their land,
and they shall never again be uprooted
out of the land that I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.

Also, I think Jesus looked at the future destruction of Jerusalem as a picture of the ultimate future destruction by the Antichrist. I think Jesus did exactly what Daniel did. Daniel speaks of the abomination of desolation by Antioches Epiphanes in 185 BC but then Daniel also pictures a future abomination, which is still future, where the little horn exalts himself above every name that is named (Dan. 11:36). In the same way, Jesus pictured the future destruction of Jerusalem taking place in that generation, but also looked to the ultimate end when He comes judging all those who dishonored Him.

But can we really say that Amos 9 was fulfilled in the captivity or that it is only spiritually fulfilled now? Extreme economic and agricultural prosperity and physical land. Did the nation of Israel ever possess all the nations that are called by the Lord's name? And the booth of David being restored has the idea that the combined North and South kingdoms will once again be united. This is the only way the booth of David can be restored.

James absolutely did not spiritualize Amos. James says that the prophet Amos agreed that Gentiles should also experience God's favor and he saw clear warrant for including them. But James specifically does not say this fulfills the prophet Amos, just that it agrees. In fact, James lack of a fulfillment formula, and Luke's lack of it as well is very telling. No where else does Luke ever just say the prophet agrees, he either says, "for it is written," or uses the word "fulfill."
Lk 24:46
46and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,

Acts 1
20“For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:

“ ‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’[SUP]e[/SUP]and,


“ ‘May another take his place of leadership.’[SUP]f[/SUP]



Acts 3:18But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer.

"But God turned away and delivered them up to serve the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, 'IT WAS NOT TO ME THAT YOU OFFERED VICTIMS AND SACRIFICES FORTY YEARS IN THE WILDERNESS, WAS IT, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL?

"When they had carried out all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb.

48“However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands; as the prophet says: 49‘HEAVEN IS MY THRONE,
AND EARTH IS THE FOOTSTOOL OF MY FEET;
WHAT KIND OF HOUSE WILL YOU BUILD FOR ME?’ says the Lord,
‘OR WHAT PLACE IS THERE FOR MY REPOSE?


Normally, the formula would be, "and this fulfills the words of the prophets," or more simply, just saying, "as it is written." But James uses the Greek word symphoneo, literally, in harmony with, like a symphony. Amos is in harmony with the idea of Gentiles being in God's favor. This is not James saying that every aspect of what Amos wrote is now being fulfilled, that wine is dripping from the mountains, that the Davidic kingdom is restored in all its prosperity, that Israel would never again be uprooted from their land. He simply says that we shouldn't prevent Gentiles from enjoying God's favor, even Amos agrees.

15“With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16‘AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,


I don't think James believed that all of Amos was fulfilled, just like I don't think that the writer of Hebrews believes that all of the New covenant was fulfilled to the house of Israel.[/QUOTE]