The Rapture explained in two minutes

[Bladerunner]

Matt...they will find out soon enough.....to believe a pre-trib ingathering the words saints, elect, wrath, tribulation all need to be swept under the rug, when the wrath is announced in heaven before the throne needs to be swept under the rug, the parable of the wheat and tares swept under the rug, the words of Jesus in Matthew, Mark and Luke swept under the rug, the word of Daniel swept under the rug, who Revelation is written to swept under the rug, the word KEEP as applied to the church at Philadelphia denied and swept under the rug, the war made on the saints swept under the rug, the wearing out of the saints swept under the rug, the signs in the heaven swept under the rug, who is identified as saints/elect swept under the rug, the fact that Paul taught the church at Thessalonica that suffering trib was a sign must be swept under the rug, the verbiage of the siege and fall of Jericho which verbatim follows the seals and trumps swept under the rug...and on and on and on.......

I was raised with the imminent return crammed down my throat and swallowed it like a perch does the hook, line and sinker until I wised up.......they will find out soon enough........it will be an eye opener for sure.....!

For those who want to argue the imminent return....don't even bother.....it will do no good until you can put the above points in context while being honest with the verbiage, definition of words, application of the words, the ANNOUNCED timing of the wrath of God etc.........

You see,,,,, DC that is where you are wrong.....I am looking for the rapture yet if it does not come by the time that I die, I will meet in Jesus in Heaven. If it does come before I die, I will meet Jesus in the Clouds. Either Way, I win.

Now what is your plan B when the Rapture does happen. Have you taken into account that at the time of the Rapture, Millions are also going to die and will not get another chance change their minds. SAD

 

[samuel23]

Hi Blade: I don't quite follow you, Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are the SAME story described by three different people. The writers are different but they are telling the same story, if you believe that they are not telling the same story then I would be interested in why you believe that way. I thought it has always been accepted by everyone that Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are different authors telling the same story. Maybe I misunderstood??

 

[Bladerunner]

Hi Blade: I don't quite follow you, Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are the SAME story described by three different people. The writers are different but they are telling the same story, if you believe that they are not telling the same story then I would be interested in why you believe that way. I thought it has always been accepted by everyone that Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are different authors telling the same story. Maybe I misunderstood??

NO Matt and Mark are pretty close to the same thing. However, Matt and Luke have a few differences in them that make a big difference on how one views 70AD replacement Theology.

NO Samuel....you just read them wrong.

 

[MattTooFor]

Well, let's see: When Jesus was speaking to his disciples he said "therefore, when 'you see' the abomination" so we know that Jesus wasn't speaking to disciples and that because they are dead.

In the first part of your comment, you say Jesus WAS speaking to the disciples. About five or six words later, you say Jesus WASN'T speaking to the disciples. Funny stuff.

So, in saying "when you see" Jesus would have had another audience in mind

So...Jesus was speaking directly to Peter, James and John, and was looking them directly in the eye...but WASN'T speaking directly to them?

Since the audience that Jesus is speaking of cannot be the disciples

But His audience WAS the disciples. You cannot rebut the Bible. There is no such thing as a rebuttal against Scripture.

if the disciples he was telling this information to are dead, then they can't be the "You" in the verse.

Incorrect. Jesus specifically conceded these particular believers might not live to see these end time events and that OTHER believers might be the ones to be on the scene during these events -- He conceded "no one knows the day or the hour". In other words, for all Jesus knew, the events might occur 2000 years later.

Likewise, since scripture is clear that the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath

You mean the ekklesia? The "called out ones"? "Church" is a made-up word with occult, Luciferian significance. But yes, the ekklesia will not see God's wrath because they are "gathered" just as the cosmic signs appear which are also the signal for the beginning of God's wrath.

and the setting up of the abomination takes place well into the time of God's wrath

No, God's wrath doesn't begin until AFTER the appearance of the great cosmic signs. You have no rebuttal to Scripture. You can't rebut the Bible - lol.

That leaves unbelieving Israel and the great tribulation saints.

No, that is incorrect. Peter, James and John were neither unbelieving Jews nor so-called "tribulation saints". If the alleged "PreTrib" rapture had happened in Peter, James and John's lifetime...would they have been "raptured" in a PreTrib rapture...or would they have been "gathered" in a post-"great tribulation" gathering as Jesus said??

Who to believe -- Tim LaHaye, David Jeremiah, John MacArthur? Or the Lord Jesus? (Prediction: "Ahwa" won't touch this question with a ten foot pole.)

 

[MattTooFor]

MattTooFor: "Theory"? It's a FACT that Jesus told Peter, James and John to live with an expectation of encountering the Abomination of Desolation.

And yet, they died before that event took place and is still yet future.

You didn't rebut my statement -- lol. I said Jesus instructed them to LIVE WITH THE EXPECTATION of these events happening in their lifetime. But He also conceded these events MIGHT NOT occur within their lifetime. He said He did not know the "day or hour". In other words, the events might occur 2000 years into the future...as far as Jesus knew.

So, Jesus words applied to whomever among His followers are on earth at the time of these events. How is it you're getting confused here?

 

[MattTooFor]

I can explain it in two words:

Came and went.....

Uh no -- there has yet to be this spectacular supernatural "gathering"...where the angels gather the elect from the four winds and from one end of the heavens to the other...to say the very least. Buh-bye (please?).

 

[MattTooFor]

Personally, I'm figuring on the return being several thousand years off into the future.

Wow -- you see absolutely no signs that world history is culminating? You don't see the impending collapses of the world's economies? Our own 20 trillion dollar national debt which is about to explode our own economy into tiny bits? People pouring into the streets all over the Western world -- Greece, Spain, Venezuela, etc.? The emerging police state? Just alone the fact of these porno X-ray scanners at all our airports and which store nudie photos of millions of American citizens. The absolute unraveling of morality...with "Christian" leaders now endorsing homosexual "morality". All the wars and rumors of war. I think even my pet Goldfish senses an impending climax of world history. Come on.

 

[tanakh]

Have you ever wanted to know exactly what to look for in the 'end times'?

Well, so did Peter, James, John and Andrew. So they asked Jesus what to look for in the end times.

Jesus told them the first specific event they should look for is...the Abomination of Desolation...which is when the world leader (the "Antichrist") springs into action and kicks things of with a destruction of Jerusalem and a holocaust against Jewish people living in that area.

Jesus clarified that He did not know when these events would take place ("no one knows the day or the hour...but on the Father in heaven")...

...therefore, He was instructing Peter, James, John (etc.) to live with an expectation of this event, the Abomination of Desolation...

...which is immediately followed by a period of Great Tribulation...followed by the glorious "Gathering" of the believers, in which we are rescued from this world just in time for god's great day of wrath.

The point I would make is...that if Peter, James and John (the first Christians and the first Christian leaders) lived with this expectation...then so should all the rest of the Christians throughout the the Christian era...YOU AND I!!!

The question I have asked the various supporters of the alleged (and non-existent) "PreTrib" rapture is this:



If you could pull Peter, or James or John aside some 15 or 20 years later after this Olivet Discourse in which Jesus instructed them to live with an expectation of these events...



...and ask them: "Do you still heed the words Jesus gave you that day? Do you still live with the expectation of possibly having to encounter those events?"

As I have repeatedly said -- what ELSE would you expect Peter or James to say other than "well, of COURSE we still heed His words from that day! Why would we not?? Has someone come along with words that contradict Jesus' words? And how could that be possible that someone could contradict Jesus with this so-called 'PreTrib' doctrine you speak of??"

Some of the PreTrib proponents on this discussion board might very well counter with...

"First of all, you guys are the top leaders of the Christian movement. So you absolutely HAVE to be PreTrib. And by the way, Tim LaHaye, John MacArthur, David Jeremiah...these guys are a pretty big deal".

Peter: "Really? They're a 'big deal'?? Are they bigger than the Lord of Glory?"

-----------------------

Anyway...there it is -- the Rapture explained in two minutes.

It is literally so simple, a child can understand it. As I have stated elsewhere, I had my little 12-year-old daughter read through the Olivet Discourse (the Matthew 24 version). It took her fifteen minutes and afterwards she clearly understood all the pertinent aspects of the end times that every believer needs to understand.

It was amazing to me that someone here chided me for thinking my daughter could actually read the Bible and understand it. An amazingly medieval mindset. The priests back in the 1200's and 1300's kept the Bible translated only in Latin because it was thought that the "little people", the common people like you and I...were 'unqualified to read and study the Scriptures.

So the irony here is...while many of these PreTrib proponents are off in their artificially constructed jungle of unnecessarily complex pseudo-doctrines...with their fourth bowl, fifth horn, third whistle, twelfth Jews Harp, concocted/fabricated Jewish virgin evangelists...on and on and on...

...meanwhile, there is this little child who has a thousand times the understanding of these poor lost PreTrib souls.

Stay out of the jungle. Take fifteen minutes to see Jesus answer the simple questions of Peter, James and John...and who heeded Jesus' words to them throughout the remainder of their lives.

This is not a reply supporting the Pre Trib position but to comment on Matthew 24 and how they, Preterists and a huge assortment of others misapply Matthew 24, which has more than one application. Prior to the Olivet discourse Jesus
and the Disciples were in the Temple. Jesus had attacked the Scribes and Pharisees. He told them that all the righteous blood from Abel to the blood of Zecharias would be upon their generation. He also said that their house will be left to them desolate. and as they left his Disciples drew his attention to the Temple building. His reply was that not one stone would be left upon another. The first of three questions they asked was When will these things be? The things they meant were what Jesus had just been talking about. When he said this generation will not pass away until all these things take arefulfilled he was talking about both their generation and the last generation before his return. For them the answer to their first question came about in AD70. It is interesting to note that Lukes version of this does not use Abomination of Desolation but instead 'Jerusalem surrounded by armies' which is exactly what happened in AD70 and will again.

 

[MattTooFor]

Theory -- as in something people think, but may, or may not, be fact.

It is a FACT that Jesus told Peter, James and John there would be a supernatural "gathering" of the believers from the four corners of earth and from one end of the heavens to the other. You have no rebuttal to the Bible.

How? Because he wasn't talking about rapture. The modern rapture theory is only 150-200 years old. How did Christians never "know" that for 1800 years?

Where do you come up with the idea that for "1800 years" no one believed Jesus' description of this supernatural post-"Great Tribulation" gathering?

As far as the word "rapture"...who in the world cares about the word "rapture"? You can use the word "banana" for all I care. Jesus' description of this supernatural "gathering" goes back considerably earlier than "150-200 years ago".

And since your entire theology is about End Times, you don't study what God wants in his word.

That's an interesting slap. The old saying - "insult is the sign of an exhausted mind".

You study your version of a conspiracy theory instead. Question after question (and you don't really ask questions, you preach rapture) dozens and dozens of pages, same argument after same argument with the same people, and you simply never get to God. Just to how people are getting off this planet at its end.

Good grief -- I think somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed, no?

No, I am interested in the whole Bible. I am interested in God and hope to see God someday soon. There's a kind of dark bitterness in some of your words. I think I ran into you on that other thread about the undercover wolves. Don't quite know what to say to you.

I hope your daughter gets out from under this propaganda she's growing up with. I hope you do too, but since this is all about advertising your 'e-booklet,' it's less likely.

Wow - again, pretty nasty, stinky, dark stuff...particularly about my daughter. Your false accusation about "propagandizing" my daughter is quite ironic since in my comments I specifically said I had merely asked her to...read...the...Bible. Yes, what an evil mind-control Svengali I am - LOL.

And...advertising my e-book?? How many people read these threads? Like three? Yes, my next move will be to buy some commercial time for the Superbowl telecast.

I believe in certain things, so I write about them...here on this discussion board and elsewhere. Lock me up and throw away the key - LOL. You do the same thing. Maybe you should uphold your own phony principles...and quit this discussion board? Just an idea.

 

[imfinallyfree]

Hello -I don't want to interject myself into your guy's argument because I don't understand your argument and it's not my place to do so anyways.

I just wanted to say that you guys are talking about Peter living as though the end is imminent? Well my names Peter and I was born on the same day as that saint Peter guy also since I realized that the end is coming and why the end is coming(because we ruined the world) I've hated everyone in the world.

I think that somewhere it says something about that guy doing that also,hating the world,I've hated the world since I was 13 yrs old,the summer before I started hating the world I wanted to kill myself everyday,that's never happened before or since.

Because of these things I have a satanic cult following me everywhere controlling my life and effecting others in regards to me.

Im not saying that im that saint because I don't believe in most of that stuff anyways but these people seem to think that im a reincarnation of that guy.

I do admit that there are similarities but im sure that I'm not the only person to start hating the world once they realized how it really is.

And me having the same birthday is explainable because maybe my ma just looked up different Bible figures that have the same birthday as mine.

I just had to say this because it's kinda creepy the similarities,I really have been telling everyone that it's the end for 20 yrs or so and I feel irresistibly compelled to do it.

I really don't believe that I am that saint reincarnated and this cult really is satanic although if they are to be believed they aren't aware that they are they thought that they were doing what they do for God.

 

[Johnny_B]

Maybe this will help clear something up for everyone, Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, complement each other. If you read them you will notice that Matthew will not mention a part of the discourse, but Mark or Luke will pick it up. It's been years since I've done a study on the Olivet Discourse so I can't remember everything right now. Parallels the synoptic Gospel. It's not some fly by night dispensationalist, it's very reliable. It also brakes down Matthew 25 as well, which Mark 13 has some of, what's interesting is Luke 12 has parts of Matthew 25. This will change you mind on the way you look at the Olivet Discourse. I'll look for it if I didn't leaned not to someone, if I have it I'll add to the discussion here. I do have some notes somewhere I'll probably find those.

 

[buddyt]

Aside from the fact there is NO RAPTURE the antichrist comes in Peacefully and Prosperously. And Jesus doesn't return until after the antichrist.

 

[Depleted]

Personally, I'm figuring on the return being several thousand years off into the future.

Personally, I think there is an evenness about it. X number of years before the Savior came, so X number of years after he came. Since no one knows how many years there were before Jesus came, we still don't have a handle on how many years after.

And, then again, this is pure guess on my part. It just seems God has symmetry like that. Knowing my personality, I could be totally wrong because even though I do see faces, ships, waves, and animals in the clouds, I'm pretty sure God doesn't set up every cloud to look like something.

(Actually, I like that we've gotten to the place where we can openly admit "this is my guess," instead of trying to force it into doctrine. )

 

[Depleted]

Depleted......HI...... What theory is that....???? the Rapture.....Why are you against it? You said it doesn't line up with the Bible... I can tell you it actually does.... if yoiu read the Bible book x book, chapter by chapter, verse x verse and words by words, in that order, I think you will find lining up with the bible is not a problem.

If I could help I would...but....

Have a great Day

Blade.

Okay. This is what I ask. Skip all the verses you've been taught prove the rapture and go straight to the source. Do a word study on the word "caught up" (rapturo in Latin, so the word is the same.) And then tell me, in context, why those words were put in that spot. i.e. why those words were used, not "how I can make the use fit into my theory."

I really did used to believe in the rapture. And then two things changed my mind:
1. The tracts (now more likely websites online, but they were tracts when we were young) changed. Back when we were young Gog and Mogog were big. Somehow they went from The Chinese were going to attack the US (Vietnam was still happening) to the USSR was going to. The Antichrist changed up to three times a year. Sometimes the Beast was the Antichrist, sometimes not, but that one kept changing too. These have been changing from before my time, and they're still changing. And then there is ye old pre vs. post debate. If it is clear in the Bible, then why haven't everyone gotten on board on the same side? Did half the believers become nonbelievers because they're on the wrong side? And that's a trick question, because frankly if the right belief in rapture saves us, then there is at least two ways to be saved -- Christ or correct eschatology.

2. So, I studied it. First by doing that word study. (After doing that alone, I was stricken by how Paul was raptured and then dumped back on earth. Seems like a mean trick.) Then I studied the history. (The history matches the Bible. Rapture is but a theory.) And then I studied Revelation through a classic study aid -- More Than Conquerors.

So, if you want to prove it to me, do the word study and then the history, and then disprove Hendriksen.

At least do the word study without preconceived notions. There is a caught-up, but nothing like Rapture theorists teach -- any of them.

 

[Depleted]

Hey, will you please tell me when the Abomination of Desolate happened...Rem now there were/are/tobe two of them????? I 'll give you a hint.....It did not happen in 70AD



PLEASE ,,,,,,one of you Replacement theology people TELL ME>>>>>PLEASE

Ask the original Alexandria Christians. They were completely wiped out. Ask the Christians that were living under Roman rule. Rome tried to wipe them out. Rome utterly destroyed Jerusalem, not merely raped the Temple. Learn what happened to them. Horror movies of our day seems like sweet little bedtime stories compared to what happened to the early Christians. God's people did run to the hills. Why do you think was the reason Christians went into hiding for 200ish years? It started around 70 AD. The reign of terror didn't end until Constantine! Check the history of the Early Church Fathers. Check the history of how the Bible came to be. It's there.

We're not the ones replacing history. And it's not a theory. It already happened! All but one apostle got death in cruel ways because they lived and then died through that time. And the one who didn't get killed? He got exiled for decades!

 

[Depleted]

It is a FACT that Jesus told Peter, James and John there would be a supernatural "gathering" of the believers from the four corners of earth and from one end of the heavens to the other. You have no rebuttal to the Bible.

Where do you come up with the idea that for "1800 years" no one believed Jesus' description of this supernatural post-"Great Tribulation" gathering?

As far as the word "rapture"...who in the world cares about the word "rapture"? You can use the word "banana" for all I care. Jesus' description of this supernatural "gathering" goes back considerably earlier than "150-200 years ago".

That's an interesting slap. The old saying - "insult is the sign of an exhausted mind".

Good grief -- I think somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed, no?

No, I am interested in the whole Bible. I am interested in God and hope to see God someday soon. There's a kind of dark bitterness in some of your words. I think I ran into you on that other thread about the undercover wolves. Don't quite know what to say to you.

Wow - again, pretty nasty, stinky, dark stuff...particularly about my daughter. Your false accusation about "propagandizing" my daughter is quite ironic since in my comments I specifically said I had merely asked her to...read...the...Bible. Yes, what an evil mind-control Svengali I am - LOL.

And...advertising my e-book?? How many people read these threads? Like three? Yes, my next move will be to buy some commercial time for the Superbowl telecast.

I believe in certain things, so I write about them...here on this discussion board and elsewhere. Lock me up and throw away the key - LOL. You do the same thing. Maybe you should uphold your own phony principles...and quit this discussion board? Just an idea.

And again, spew the fake doctrine and push God to the side.

What does that give you? A hate for anyone who disagrees with you. A very disagreeable spirit. An arrogance that has absolutely nothing to do with God. To you, it has to do with you get off this planet safely.

 

[3angels]

I do not believe in the preterism or futurist method of interpreting bible prophecy. The historical method of inpreting bible prophecy makes more sense to me.

 

[Depleted]

Hello -I don't want to interject myself into your guy's argument because I don't understand your argument and it's not my place to do so anyways.

I just wanted to say that you guys are talking about Peter living as though the end is imminent? Well my names Peter and I was born on the same day as that saint Peter guy also since I realized that the end is coming and why the end is coming(because we ruined the world) I've hated everyone in the world.

I think that somewhere it says something about that guy doing that also,hating the world,I've hated the world since I was 13 yrs old,the summer before I started hating the world I wanted to kill myself everyday,that's never happened before or since.

Because of these things I have a satanic cult following me everywhere controlling my life and effecting others in regards to me.

Im not saying that im that saint because I don't believe in most of that stuff anyways but these people seem to think that im a reincarnation of that guy.

I do admit that there are similarities but im sure that I'm not the only person to start hating the world once they realized how it really is.

And me having the same birthday is explainable because maybe my ma just looked up different Bible figures that have the same birthday as mine.

I just had to say this because it's kinda creepy the similarities,I really have been telling everyone that it's the end for 20 yrs or so and I feel irresistibly compelled to do it.

I really don't believe that I am that saint reincarnated and this cult really is satanic although if they are to be believed they aren't aware that they are they thought that they were doing what they do for God.

No one knows what Peter's birthday was. That's another lie those folks taught you. Also the reason I ask you to read the Bible, so you can sort through the junk you've been taught. Too much junk has been laid on your shoulders. Read the Bible all the way through and you can trash quite a bit of it and learn what God's love means. Honest.

Also, heads up, you really don't want to try and understand these arguments. That's all they are -- arguments. Bullies in the playground trying to get everyone else to line up with their beliefs.

 

[notuptome]

Stay out of the woods. The woods are filled with wackos.

The great tribulation is pronounced upon Israel and the unsaved world. The great tribulation is not pronounced on the church. The church is not subject to judgment but the ungodly and unbelieving Israel.

Without a proper foundation you cannot build a correct doctrine. Sound doctrine eludes many because they cannot endure it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[samuel23]

Hi Blade: It appears we have a failure to communicate. Maybe this will help, if I was on a fishing boat with three friends and I caught this big tuna and later all three wrote a page describing me catching the fish, even though their stories are not exactly the same yet the event itself was the same. You must take Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 as a unit or else you are manipulating the bible, God gave us all three for a reason.