There is no proof of a 96 AD timing for the writing of Revelation. Many scholars date it before 70 AD. Some of the very earliest church writers do give it a 96 AD timing but keep in mind they were still living under Roman rule themselves. They certainly didn't want Rome to think that they considered Rome the beast which carried the harlot.
The Rapture
- Thread starter 2nicee
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
You know this obsession that Christians have with a rebuilt temple is not shared by Jews. Did you know that majority of today's judaism practicers do not want a temple? Especially the reformed jews (who are the largest denomination) say that:
"Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism do not believe in the rebuilding of a central Temple or a restoration of Temple sacrifices or worship. They regard the Temple and sacrificial era as a period of a more primitive form of ritual from which Judaism has evolved and should not return. They also believe a special role for Kohanim and Levites represents a caste system incompatible with modern principles of egalitarianism, and do not preserve these roles. Furthermore, there is a Reform view that the shul or synagogue is a modern Temple"
The conservative judaism practicers viewpoint:
"Conservative Judaism believes in a Messiah and in a rebuilt Temple, but does not believe in the restoration of sacrifices. Accordingly, Conservative Judaism's Committee on Jewish Law and Standards has modified the prayers. Conservative prayerbooks call for the restoration of Temple, but do not ask for resumption of sacrifices. The Orthodox study session on sacrifices in the daily morning service has been replaced with the Talmudic passages teaching that deeds of loving-kindness now atone for sin."
The concensus:
"Rabbinical consensus in the Religious Zionist stream of Orthodox Judaism continues to hold that it is forbidden for Jews to enter any part of the Temple Mount"
The truth is that only a small minority of them care one bit about the temple. It seems to me that dispensational christians and christadelphians are more interested in the temple than the Jews themselves.
This is the small minority point of view, and even that is not 100%:
"Although in mainstream Orthodox Judaism the rebuilding of the Temple is generally left to the coming of the Jewish Messiah and to Divine Providence, a number of organizations, generally representing a small minority of Orthodox Jews, have been formed with the objective of realizing the immediate construction of a Third Temple in present times."
There have been many attempts by the Jews throughout history to rebuild the temple and everytime it has been destroyed by a fire or an earthquake or something. Hmm. Maybe God does not want the temple built?
All these quotes are from wikipedia with sources listed at the bottom of the page and all this to say: STOP the temple hysteria... Because you know they can not build it in the original place because the mosque is there now you got to invent a new secret location that was found where it truly was just to fulfill the temple fantasies, it just has to be built somewhere for some reason. Join the rest of us in the New Covenant.
"Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism do not believe in the rebuilding of a central Temple or a restoration of Temple sacrifices or worship. They regard the Temple and sacrificial era as a period of a more primitive form of ritual from which Judaism has evolved and should not return. They also believe a special role for Kohanim and Levites represents a caste system incompatible with modern principles of egalitarianism, and do not preserve these roles. Furthermore, there is a Reform view that the shul or synagogue is a modern Temple"
The conservative judaism practicers viewpoint:
"Conservative Judaism believes in a Messiah and in a rebuilt Temple, but does not believe in the restoration of sacrifices. Accordingly, Conservative Judaism's Committee on Jewish Law and Standards has modified the prayers. Conservative prayerbooks call for the restoration of Temple, but do not ask for resumption of sacrifices. The Orthodox study session on sacrifices in the daily morning service has been replaced with the Talmudic passages teaching that deeds of loving-kindness now atone for sin."
The concensus:
"Rabbinical consensus in the Religious Zionist stream of Orthodox Judaism continues to hold that it is forbidden for Jews to enter any part of the Temple Mount"
The truth is that only a small minority of them care one bit about the temple. It seems to me that dispensational christians and christadelphians are more interested in the temple than the Jews themselves.
This is the small minority point of view, and even that is not 100%:
"Although in mainstream Orthodox Judaism the rebuilding of the Temple is generally left to the coming of the Jewish Messiah and to Divine Providence, a number of organizations, generally representing a small minority of Orthodox Jews, have been formed with the objective of realizing the immediate construction of a Third Temple in present times."
There have been many attempts by the Jews throughout history to rebuild the temple and everytime it has been destroyed by a fire or an earthquake or something. Hmm. Maybe God does not want the temple built?
All these quotes are from wikipedia with sources listed at the bottom of the page and all this to say: STOP the temple hysteria... Because you know they can not build it in the original place because the mosque is there now you got to invent a new secret location that was found where it truly was just to fulfill the temple fantasies, it just has to be built somewhere for some reason. Join the rest of us in the New Covenant.
Last edited:
Jerusalem could be filled with rebuilt Temples. But not one of them will be Holy because God wont be in any of them.Jesus did away with the Temple and sacrifices once and for all by bearing our sins as the true Passover Lamb. John the Baptist called him the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. Jesus said of himself Destroy this temple and in three days I will rebuild it. When he entered the Temple and drove out the Money Changers he said MY FATHERS HOUSE is a house of prayer for all nations but you have made it a den of thieves. He called it his fathers house then. The last time he entered the Temple he said to the Religious Leaders YOUR house would be left desolate because that was all that was left to them a stone building with Christ and the Holy Spirit departing from it. Within that generation the Temple and the city was left destroyed and desolate. The time leading up to the destruction of the Temple was a transition period between the old covenant age ending and the new covenant age beginning. There will not be a Temple set up that is approved by god. No animal sacrifices would remove sins because Christ the Passover Lamb has already done it.
Last edited:
I was talking about the very bright light in 66 AD just prior to the Roman invasion. The light illuminated the Temple turning darkness into bright light as the sun. This was the second sign of the breaking of the covenant per Jer 33:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying, [SUP]20 [/SUP]“Thus says the Lord: ‘If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, [SUP]21 [/SUP]then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne...
God breaking His covenant with Israel started when Christ was on the Cross as the day turned into pitch darkness from the 6th to the 9th hour (Mat 27:45). Then just prior to the judgment of the harlot, the reverse happens at the temple completing the break.
Do I think the resurrected saints from 30 AD went to heaven with Christ?? Is that the question? My answer would be no. I think the earth quaked when Christ died opening the graves. Then three days later the power of His resurrection was so great that those in graves near Him briefly came back to life. The main cemetery for Jerusalem is just east between the temple and the Mount of Olives in the Kidron Valley. Depending on where Christ's tomb was located, it could have been very close to here. The Garden Tomb would have been about a 5-10 min walk.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying, [SUP]20 [/SUP]“Thus says the Lord: ‘If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, [SUP]21 [/SUP]then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne...
God breaking His covenant with Israel started when Christ was on the Cross as the day turned into pitch darkness from the 6th to the 9th hour (Mat 27:45). Then just prior to the judgment of the harlot, the reverse happens at the temple completing the break.
Do I think the resurrected saints from 30 AD went to heaven with Christ?? Is that the question? My answer would be no. I think the earth quaked when Christ died opening the graves. Then three days later the power of His resurrection was so great that those in graves near Him briefly came back to life. The main cemetery for Jerusalem is just east between the temple and the Mount of Olives in the Kidron Valley. Depending on where Christ's tomb was located, it could have been very close to here. The Garden Tomb would have been about a 5-10 min walk.
If you don't believe the saints ascended with Christ then why do you believe Jesus will come back with ten thousands of his saints? He's left the same way he comes back no?
Acts 1:11 KJV
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Acts 1:11 KJV
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
@ PW
At the time of Jacob's trouble which you believe is AD 70, MANY of them that sleep in the dust of the earth (graves) will awake - some to EVERLASTING LIFE and some to everlasting contempt. This is the first coming of Christ, how do you explain this?
Daniel 12:1-2 KJV
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
[2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
At the time of Jacob's trouble which you believe is AD 70, MANY of them that sleep in the dust of the earth (graves) will awake - some to EVERLASTING LIFE and some to everlasting contempt. This is the first coming of Christ, how do you explain this?
Daniel 12:1-2 KJV
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
[2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Mark 10:31 (NRSV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first."
I believe that is a comparison of TRUE BELIEVERS who are those from the FIRST COVENANT, and those who are from the LAST COVENANT. Which places the 70th Week of Daniel FIRMLY AFTER the LAST COVENANT is FINISHED.
Zechariah 14:16-21 (NRSV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Then all who survive of the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the festival of booths.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] If any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain upon them.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And if the family of Egypt do not go up and present themselves, then on them shall come the plague that the LORD inflicts on the nations that do not go up to keep the festival of booths.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Such shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to keep the festival of booths.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] On that day there shall be inscribed on the bells of the horses, "Holy to the LORD." And the cooking pots in the house of the LORD shall be as holy as the bowls in front of the altar;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] and every cooking pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be sacred to the LORD of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and use them to boil the flesh of the sacrifice. And there shall no longer be traders in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.
I got news for you, in the 1000 Year Earthly Kingdom, JESUS gets to DECLARE anything HOLY that CHOOSES TO DECLARE HOLY.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first."
I believe that is a comparison of TRUE BELIEVERS who are those from the FIRST COVENANT, and those who are from the LAST COVENANT. Which places the 70th Week of Daniel FIRMLY AFTER the LAST COVENANT is FINISHED.
Zechariah 14:16-21 (NRSV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Then all who survive of the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the festival of booths.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] If any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain upon them.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And if the family of Egypt do not go up and present themselves, then on them shall come the plague that the LORD inflicts on the nations that do not go up to keep the festival of booths.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Such shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to keep the festival of booths.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] On that day there shall be inscribed on the bells of the horses, "Holy to the LORD." And the cooking pots in the house of the LORD shall be as holy as the bowls in front of the altar;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] and every cooking pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be sacred to the LORD of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and use them to boil the flesh of the sacrifice. And there shall no longer be traders in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.
I got news for you, in the 1000 Year Earthly Kingdom, JESUS gets to DECLARE anything HOLY that CHOOSES TO DECLARE HOLY.
Last edited:
2 Timothy 2:17-18 KJV
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
[18] Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Haven't you guys ever wondered why Hymenaeus and Philetus were preaching that the resurrection had already passed? Considering that the old testament saints were raised with Jesus, do you see what God is trying to show us there?
This is how God works... 100% faith in what is written - exactly as it's written.
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
[18] Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Haven't you guys ever wondered why Hymenaeus and Philetus were preaching that the resurrection had already passed? Considering that the old testament saints were raised with Jesus, do you see what God is trying to show us there?
This is how God works... 100% faith in what is written - exactly as it's written.
Acts 2:13-16 KJV
Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
[14] But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
[15] For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
[16] But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Same thing here. These men are full of NEW WINE... Peter DID NOT dispute it nor did he say they weren't full of new wine. He said these men are not DRUNKEN. Do you see the message God is giving to those who BELIEVE ONLY what is written?
Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
[14] But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
[15] For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
[16] But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Same thing here. These men are full of NEW WINE... Peter DID NOT dispute it nor did he say they weren't full of new wine. He said these men are not DRUNKEN. Do you see the message God is giving to those who BELIEVE ONLY what is written?
Joel 3:18 KJV
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the Lord , and shall water the valley of Shittim.
When did the mountains drop NEW WINE?
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the Lord , and shall water the valley of Shittim.
When did the mountains drop NEW WINE?
There is an earthly and spiritual version of everything in the bible... Can you see this? Those men were full of NEW WINE, the mokers were talking about EARTHLY wine. Peter didn't dispute them because he KNEW that God prophesied through them. Peter knew those men were full of spiritual NEW WINE, that's why he didn't dispute it.
Matthew 9:17 KJV
Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Maybe earthly wine should go in wine skins, but Matthew 9:17 (in the KJV) is talking about SPIRITUAL new wine... that belongs in EARTHEN VESSELS not beasts skins.
Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Maybe earthly wine should go in wine skins, but Matthew 9:17 (in the KJV) is talking about SPIRITUAL new wine... that belongs in EARTHEN VESSELS not beasts skins.