The Rapture

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May 11, 2014
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I'm so glad to see that someone know that besides me!
Indeed. I am not saying that everyone in Jerusalem right now is not an authentic flesh descendant of Abraham.
What I am saying is that for sure majority of them are just sons of converts and are white europeans. Have you seen the way some of the Yemeni Jews look? Or the ones who were blowing the shofar in the Temple article someone posted, they looked authentic to me.

But at the end of the day, flesh profiteth nothing. But still this is a core doctrine in dispensationalism, I would embrace it if someone could prove that these guys are truly Jews (flesh descendats) and not just white europeans sons of converts.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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KJV has already knocked this bogeyman on the head

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many
Isaiah 26:19-21 KJV
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
The resurrection in Matthew.

[20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
The sealing of the 144,000

[21] For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
The destruction of earthly Jerusalem.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Isaiah 26:19-21 KJV
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
The resurrection in Matthew.

[20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
The sealing of the 144,000

[21] For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
The destruction of earthly Jerusalem.
Here is the same events in Revelation.

Revelation 6:9-11 KJV
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: [10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were , should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7:3-4 KJV
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. [4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 8:5 KJV
And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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KJV,

What do you make of this? I just found this writing from Ignatius, Bishop of Smyrna (67-110 AD) a pupil and friend of the Apostle John. His beliefs must carry a lot of weight. This comes from his letter to Magnesia, para 9:

Through this mystery we got our faith, and because of it we stand our ground so as to become disciples of Jesus Christ, our sole teacher. How, then, can we live without him when even the prophets, who were his disciples by the Spirit, awaited him as their teacher? He, then, whom they were rightly expecting, raised them from the dead, when he came.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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KJV,

What do you make of this? I just found this writing from Ignatius, Bishop of Smyrna (67-110 AD) a pupil and friend of the Apostle John. His beliefs must carry a lot of weight. This comes from his letter to Magnesia, para 9:

Through this mystery we got our faith, and because of it we stand our ground so as to become disciples of Jesus Christ, our sole teacher. How, then, can we live without him when even the prophets, who were his disciples by the Spirit, awaited him as their teacher? He, then, whom they were rightly expecting, raised them from the dead, when he came.
Jesus raising the old testament saints at Jesus' resurrection.
 
May 11, 2014
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KJV,

What do you make of this? I just found this writing from Ignatius, Bishop of Smyrna (67-110 AD) a pupil and friend of the Apostle John. His beliefs must carry a lot of weight. This comes from his letter to Magnesia, para 9:

Through this mystery we got our faith, and because of it we stand our ground so as to become disciples of Jesus Christ, our sole teacher. How, then, can we live without him when even the prophets, who were his disciples by the Spirit, awaited him as their teacher? He, then, whom they were rightly expecting, raised them from the dead, when he came.
No. Ignatius and Irenaeus were both premillennialists and were looking forward to the Antichrist so the quote mining of them is of no use. None of the pre-Nicene Church fathers believed that the resurrection is a past event.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Jesus raising the old testament saints at Jesus' resurrection.
Could be. My wife tends to agree with you. Let's assume you are correct. This means those OT Saints are in heaven right now with glorified bodies. Given that, do you see any need for a future resurrection of the saints whereby only their souls are in heaven and they need to wait to get their bodies?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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No. Ignatius and Irenaeus were both premillennialists and were looking forward to the Antichrist so the quote mining of them is of no use. None of the pre-Nicene Church fathers believed that the resurrection is a past event.
They may have been looking forward to the antichrist, but this guy PW quoted KNEW the dead were raised at Cnrist's resurrection.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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No. Ignatius and Irenaeus were both premillennialists and were looking forward to the Antichrist so the quote mining of them is of no use. None of the pre-Nicene Church fathers believed that the resurrection is a past event.
I just finished reading all of Ignatius works. He makes no mention of a future "antichrist." He merely states that anyone who denies the Father has a Son is an "antichrist." In terms of the resurrection, I just gave you a passage where Ignatius states the prophets were raised from the dead, when he came. Past tense, "raised them from the dead, when he came" (not "when he comes"). Now he does reference his future resurrection after he fights with the beasts of Rome. But, it sure sounds like an immediate resurrection that he's looking forward to.

Please post the passage(s) you are referencing. Maybe I missed it as I was reading fast.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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Why do you think it's a time Jacob's trouble and not Israel's trouble
(both being the man). Does "Jacob" mean something that you know of?
After years of trial and testing —after finally wrestling all night
with the angel (Genesis 32:24-29)—after confessing his name as
“supplanter”—God bestowed His blessing upon Jacob, took away
his reproachful name, and gave him a new, untainted name,
Israel—which means “prevailer,” or “overcomer with God.”

God appeared to Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel (Genesis 35:11)
When Jacobs name is used , it could mean Israel in [sinning mode]

Now the sons of Jacob were twelve:

"For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler;
but the birthright was Joseph’s.”


So at this point the two divisions of the Abrahamic promises—the birthright,
involving material and national promises,and the scepter, including the kingly
and spiritual promises—were separated.




The sceptre shall not depart from Judah …” (Genesis 49:10).
But the birthright was Joseph’s” (1 Chronicles 5:2).


the birthright,including the Promised Land now called Palestine, the assurance
of multitudinous population, material and national prosperity,dominance over
other nations, was now given to Joseph and his sons.


This birthright was not to be inherited by all the tribes of Israel!
It was not given to the Jews! Only a part of the Israelites—
the descendants of Joseph—was to inherit these tremendous national promises!


At the time of Jacob’s death, he and his sons were living in Egypt.


Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will
make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy
seed after thee for an everlasting possession” (Genesis 48:2-4).


Nothing here whatsoever is said about all the families of the Earth being
blessed in his seed—the one seed. Nothing is said about kings.
Nothing is said about spiritual blessings whatever.


These promises are those of the birthright. These promises are of multiple
seed—a multitude of people—and possession of the Promised Land.


“And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were
born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into
Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine”(verse 5).


Manasseh’s name is mentioned first, because Manasseh was the elder.
But old Jacob now mentioned the name of Ephraim first.
Here we see supernatural guidance!


and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers
Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the
midst of the earth” (verses 14-16).


Israel did not confer this blessing on just one, but on both—“Bless the lads,”
he said. This blessing went upon them jointly.


“Let my name be named on them” was part of this blessing. His name was Israel.
Hence, it was the descendants of these lads, not the descendants of Judah, or
the Jews, who were named Israel. the name Israel was to be indelibly stamped
on Ephraim and Manasseh!


Ephraim and Manasseh together received the right to the name Israel.
It was to become the national name of their descendants. And their
descendants were never Jews!


Together the descendants of these two lads, Ephraim and Manasseh, were to
grow into the promised multitude—the nation and company of nations.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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They may have been looking forward to the antichrist, but this guy PW quoted KNEW the dead were raised at Cnrist's resurrection.
He didn't say at Christ's resurrection, he said, "when he came." Now he could have meant when Christ returned from the dead or he could have meant when Christ returned at His parousia to destroy Jerusalem. Either way, he did make pretty clear it was a past event to him.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Could be. My wife tends to agree with you. Let's assume you are correct. This means those OT Saints are in heaven right now with glorified bodies. Given that, do you see any need for a future resurrection of the saints whereby only their souls are in heaven and they need to wait to get their bodies?
Yes I see the bible teaching that we will get new bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 KJV
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: [44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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He didn't say at Christ's resurrection, he said, "when he came." Now he could have meant when Christ returned from the dead or he could have meant when Christ returned at His parousia to destroy Jerusalem. Either way, he did make pretty clear it was a past event to him.
PW Jesus comes 3 times... 1) Flesh birth 2) His resurrection 3) 1000 year reign. There is NO MENTION of Jesus returning in AD 70 any where in the bible.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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No. Ignatius and Irenaeus were both premillennialists and were looking forward to the Antichrist so the quote mining of them is of no use. None of the pre-Nicene Church fathers believed that the resurrection is a past event.
Regarding what PW wrote above, I would have to say that the information is definitely incorrect. The promises that Jesus made to his disciples were to the entire church. That said, the problem with the idea that those mentioned were raised when Jesus came, which He hasn't, is that the promise of Jesus coming to gather His church would have only included only the church that existed up to 70 AD, leaving the rest of the church up to this present time out of His promise.

When the Lord appears, it will be to gather the entire church all at the same time. First, all of those who have died from the on-set of the church to the present will be raised. Immediately after that, those who are still alive will be changed and caught up to meet those who just resurrected. At that point, the entire church from the beginning to the end, will be present in the air with Christ, who will take the entire group back to the Father's house as described in John 14:1-3
 
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Nov 23, 2013
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Regarding what PW wrote above, I would have to say that the information is definitely incorrect. The promises that Jesus made to his disciples were to the entire church. That said, the problem with the idea that those mentioned were raised when Jesus came, which He hasn't, is that the promise of Jesus coming to gather His church would have only included only the church that existed up to 70 AD, leaving the rest of the church up to this present time out of His promise.

When the Lord appears, it will be to gather the entire church all at the same time. First, all of those who have died from the on-set of the church to the present will be raised. Immediately after that, those who are still alive will be changed and caught up to meet those who just resurrected. At that point, the entire church from the beginning to the end, will be present in the air with Christ, who will take the entire group back to the Father's house as described in John 14:1-3
By what you're saying, the old testament saints have 2 resurrections and die TWICE. It is appointed unto man ONCE to die and then the judgement... who should we believe, you or the bible?

Hebrews 9:27 KJV
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
 
May 11, 2014
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By what you're saying, the old testament saints have 2 resurrections and die TWICE. It is appointed unto man ONCE to die and then the judgement... who should we believe, you or the bible?

Hebrews 9:27 KJV
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
That is not a straight doctrinal statement, some people died twice like Lazarus and many around Elijah's ministry.
And some people died 0 times, including Enoch and Elijah.
 
May 11, 2014
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When the Lord appears, it will be to gather the entire church all at the same time. First, all of those who have died from the on-set of the church to the present will be raised. Immediately after that, those who are still alive will be changed and caught up to meet those who just resurrected. At that point, the entire church from the beginning to the end, will be present in the air with Christ, who will take the entire group back to the Father's house as described in John 14:1-3
I agree with that.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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That is not a straight doctrinal statement, some people died twice like Lazarus and many around Elijah's ministry.
And some people died 0 times, including Enoch and Elijah.
The bible doesn't contradict itself.:)

It is appointed unto SOME men to LEAVE this earth through DEATH and they only die ONE time. After that death is the judgement.

It is also appointed unto SOME men to leave this earth by TRANSLATION. After that translation is the judgement.

The bible mentioned Enoch and Elijah were translated... does that mean they are the only ones? Is there a biblical record of Lazarus dying the 2nd time (violating Hebrews 9:27)? Did Lazarus go up with the old testament saints? Or the people that Elijah raised, did they die again (violating Hebrew 9:27) or were they translated with no biblical record of it?