The Rapture

Ahwatukee · Jul 19, 2017

You continue with the same error Tanakh, which is that you don't understand that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end age. The Lord Coming "after the tribulation of those days" is in reference to when He returns to the earth, not when He gathers the church!

Our conclusion is based on cross-referencing and comparing all related scriptures and we apply all of those characteristics to end-time events in order to come to a thorough interpretation. You on the other hand create apologetics and fail to apply other pertinent scriptures.

You are unable to conceive of the gathering of the church as being a separate event vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

You have not truly believed that Christ took upon himself the wrath that all believers deserve. For if you did, you would not be believing that the church is to go through God's wrath, which Jesus already satisfied.

You continue to ignore the scriptures that proclaim that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. But what do you do? When presented with that information, instead you distort the scripture, inventing apologetics to counter what you have been given. And this goes on, and on and on. You guys never listen to scriptural reasoning.

That scriptural facts are:

1). Jesus went the Father's house to prepare dwelling places for the entire church. And He said that He was coming back to get us and take us back to the Father's house that where He is we may be also. - John 14:1-3

2). 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is a detailed account of when Jesus comes back to get us as promised in John 14:1-3.

3). Scripture states that the Church is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath (1 Thes.5:9), that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10) and that Jesus said that he would keep us "out of" that time of God's wrath (Rev.3:10)

4). Revelation 19:6,8 shows the bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. And then Rev.19:14 shows the armies of heaven following the Lord out of heaven and wearing that same fine linen, white and clean and riding on white horses.

If the bride/church is following Christ out of heaven, then we would have to already be in heaven!

Bogadile · Jul 19, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

Might I add my favorite point: if the Church returns in Rev 19:14 then they cannot be the same people resurrected in Rev 20:4.
SLAM DUNK. Who can refute this point? I see no way out of it.

tanakh · Jul 19, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

What you actually do is search the Bible and force verses to fit your views by placing your own interpretations on them. It is very similar to the JW method of Bible study.

Most of those who are Christs Bride are already in Heaven with him and are added to every day. As Paul told the Thessalonians Christ will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. They receive immortal bodies at his second coming and those who are alive will meet him in the air and escort him back to earth I believe he returns at the seventh trumpet and that is when the resurrection happens. We are protected from his wrath by being sealed with the Holy Spirit which took place when we were saved. What I believe is what most of the worlds Church believes and have done for centuries

Ahwatukee · Jul 19, 2017

Bogadile said:

Right on! Amen!

Ahwatukee · Jul 19, 2017

No I don't force verses to fit my own views. God forbid that I should do what you people do.

I challenge you to provide any scripture that I have forced to mean anything other than what scripture states. Because as soon as you provide it, I am going to gather all of the other scripture to support what the scripture is saying. I challenge you to prove it with any topic.

KJV1611 · Jul 19, 2017

Bogadile said:

Unless Jesus left with TEN thousands of his saints and he's coming back with them as the bible says.... Then it makes perfect sense. Christ and the FIRSTFRUITS of the 1st resurrection coming back as promised for the ingathering of the harvest.

KJV1611 · Jul 19, 2017

Where is this rapture in the old testament, not examples of a rapture but where does Joel or Isaiah or Ezekiel or Daniel mention the rapture?

VCO · Jul 19, 2017

tanakh said:

WHAT YOU FAIL TO TAKE IN CONSIDERATION is DAY 2 is YET to conclude using GOD's TIME TABLE:

Psalm 90:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For in Your sight a thousand years are like yesterday that passes by, like a few hours of the night.

2 Peter 3:8-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Dear friends, don’t let this one thing escape you:
With the Lord one day is like a thousand years,
and a thousand years like one day.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief; on that ⌊day⌋ the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, the elements will burn and be dissolved, and the earth and the works on it will be disclosed.

VCO · Jul 19, 2017

Bogadile said:

I agree, SLAM DUNK, but Plainword denies it before He finishes reading one of the two verses, and several others will too.

KJV1611 · Jul 19, 2017

VCO said:

It's only a slam dunk if Jesus wasn't returning with 10,000's of his saints... who are they?

Jude 1:14 KJV
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

What does 10,000 represent in the bible.... New Testament believers, I don't think so.

Ahwatukee · Jul 19, 2017

tanakh said:

By the way, what good would it be for me to force scripture to fit my views? I'm zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word. The reason that I cross-reference and compare scripture is so that I can know what the truth is, not so that I can make it up. I am not looking for my own glory by presenting the word of God.

Throughout the years anything that the Spirit had not revealed to me, I did not teach or proclaim, but I kept that issue in what I call my "spiritual cupboard." But as God reveals them to me, they come out of my cupboard and I proclaim and teach them. I am not one proclaim any Biblical topic haphazardly. I do not make snap judgments.

You are only half right. Those from the beginning of the church until the present who have died, their spirits/souls have left their bodies and their spirits have gone to be in the presence of the Lord. Their bodies on the other hand were buried and have decayed or are decaying.

When the resurrection takes place, the Lord will bring with him those spirits who have died in Him and they will be reunited with those resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, the living in Christ will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. Then according to John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house (heaven). This is where the church/bride will receive her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb in her immortal and glorified bodies.

The seventh trumpet is not the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52. In support of this, the trumpets are judgments of God's wrath, with the last three referred to as woes. There is nothing in the context in or around the seventh trumpet that even suggests a gathering of the church. Not to mention that, if the church were to be gathered at the seventh trumpet, it would mean that the church would have gone through the seals and trumpets of God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer. You see how scripture supports scripture? I am not making this to fit my view.

Well you have a couple of problems here: 1) no where is the church even mentioned during the time of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And 2). the only group that is said to be excluded from one of God's judgments are the 144,000 and that from the results of the 5th trumpet. Therefore, your claim that the church is on the earth and is protected from God's wrath are assumptions, since the church is not even mentioned and scripture never says that they are protected. You would have the church being protected during God's wrath , instead of believing in the Lord's promise to keep us out of His time of wrath.

So hypothetically, what is God going to do when a third of the earth and trees are burned up? Make sure that none of the church is within that third of the earth?

At the pouring out of the 4th bowl judgment when the sun scorches the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat, is God going to put air conditioned force fields over each individual believer in the church?

When the mark becomes mandatory where no one will be able to electronically credit and debit their bank accounts (buying and selling), is God going to have a raven bring each believer a piece of bread?

As I continue to point out, you and others who believe this teaching, have no understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath and who it is against. I would rather that you all believed in the promise of the Lord's gathering the church off the earth prior to His wrath, but you won't receive it.

When the Lord and the two angels appeared to Abraham, he asked the Lord if that if He found 45 righteous people, would not destroy the city for the sake of the 45? Then of course he says the same thing all the way down to 10 people. And the Lord's answer was, that if he found even ten righteous people in Sodom, he would not destroy it for the sake of the ten. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be much, much worse than what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah, which will not be happening in just one city, but the entire earth. And you think that the Lord is going to leave the church here during the time of His unprecedented wrath, instead of fulfilling his promise to keep us out of his time of wrath?

Because God's wrath will be upon the entire world and because God does not punish the righteous with the wicked, He is going to gather His church prior to His wrath. This way He will not have to worry about protecting the church while his wrath is being poured out. He can let His wrath fly!

Burninglight · Jul 19, 2017

RickyZ said:

Well, the apostle Paul disagrees with you. He said, " As for the gathering together unto Him (rapture) don't be deceived for day will not happen unless there is a falling away first and the man of sin is revealed." 2 Thes. 2

If it weren't important not to be or to be deceived about it, he wouldn't have warned us. In light of this, I wouldn't take it so lightly as you appear to do.

VCO · Jul 19, 2017

VCO said:

Found a picture of what the Safeway Giant Hoagies look like in their Deli Display Cooler:

Regular 6" Sub Sandwich on the left. SAFEWAY'S Full Size French Loaf Giant Hoagie front and center. Like I said, you should see their eyes when I handed those hungry people one of those, made me smile all the way through my soul.

Now if you want a Laugh, when I was a teenager, I was a Carrier Out Boy, at a Grocery Store called HINKY DINKY.

Nehemiah6 · Jul 19, 2017

Jackson123 said:

That is not really what Paul teaches here ( in 2 Thess), although it is frequently misunderstood. So let's take another look at this passage, knowing that Scripture does not contradict itself. I will quote from the KJV:

EXPECTATION OF THE RAPTURE WAS IMMINENT FOR NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIANS
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

BUT SOME WERE ERRONEOUSLY TEACHING THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD (THE GREAT TRIBULATION) WAS AT HAND
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of [the Lord] is at hand. (Note: "Day of Christ" was incorrect, and almost all translations have "Day of the Lord")

THE DAY OF THE LORD WOULD BE PRECEDED BY THE GREAT APOSTASY AND THE REVELATION OF THE ANTICHRIST (THE MAN OF SIN, THE SON OF PERDITION)
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

BUT THE DIVINE RESTRAINER (THE HOLY SPIRIT) WOULD HAVE TO BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY FIRST
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

So what Paul was teaching the Thessalonians here is that the Rapture must occur BEFORE the Day of the Lord, which comes as a result of the Antichrist taking control and setting up the Abomination of Desolation in the Temple at Jerusalem. This would not be possible until the Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) were "taken out of the way", and that could only happen if the Church was raptured (since the Holy Spirit indwells the Church and restrains Satan until the Rapture). Satan and the Beast will take absolute control of the world for 3 1/2 years (because God allows it).

Thus the sequence of events must be as follows:

1. The Rapture
2. The Great Apostasy
3. The Antichrist takes control
4. The Antichrist sets up the Abomination of Desolation
5. The result of that is the Great Tribulation (which corresponds to the Day of the Lord)

The Olivet Discourse confirms the connection between the Abomination of Desolation and the Day of the Lord.

heartofdavid · Jul 19, 2017

KJV1611 said:

The dead in Christ resurrect and rise first ,then we which are alive are caught up to meet the ressurrected in the air.

To top it off,there is a gathering in rev 14 DURING THE GT.

No matter what,it is in fact,a pretrib rapture.

heartofdavid · Jul 19, 2017

Bogadile said:

Nobody is resurrected in rev 20.

No way.
But yeah,for argument sake the postribs have a huge quandary with that rev 20 deal.

heartofdavid · Jul 19, 2017

Burninglight said:

The Ac is revealed,the saints are all detained in some facilities and the next day,month or hour,the rapture occurs.

That is my PRETRIB RAPTURE MODEL.

You have only agreed with me that the rapture does occur pretrib as paul states.

VCO · Jul 19, 2017

KJV1611 said:

Christ Is the First Fruits of MANY Resurrections,

1 Corinthians 15:22-23 (ASV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.

Starting with the Dead in Messiah Jesus Christ, who are raised each in their own order;

followed by those living who are READY/WATCHING for the Bridegroom, thereby being invited to the Wedding of the Lamb, perhaps Seven years before the Second Coming;

followed by the Martyred Saints of the Tribulation at His Second Coming;

followed by every True Believer who dies during the Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ,

followed by all Unbelievers, after the Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ, to face their Judgement before Christ and thereby being sentenced to the Eternal Lake of Fire,

and IF MORTALS go into the NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH they too will be Resurrected to Eternal Life when they die.

Where on GOD's green Earth do you get the idea that it all happens at one moment in time? ? ? It flabbergasts me how anyone can possibly think there is only ONE RESURRECTION AT ONE MOMENT IN TIME, and it is ALL OVER, with NO MORE RESURRECTIONS. In fact, I believe EACH Unbeliever will be raised individually when it is time to FACE his or her JUDGE, JESUS CHRIST.

Revelation 20:15 (ESV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

SEE IT, THE BOOKS ARE CHECKED FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL NAME, NOT SENTENCED AS A GROUP. RAISED ONE AT A TIME TO FACE CHRIST THEIR JUDGE. NO GUILT BY ASSOCIATION, INDIVIDUALLY PRONOUNCED GUILTY and INDIVIDUALLY SENTENCED.

Isaiah 65:18-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Then be glad and rejoice forever in what I am creating; for I will create Jerusalem to be a joy and its people to be a delight.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people. The sound of weeping and crying will no longer be heard in her.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] In her, a nursing infant will no longer live only a few days, or an old man not live out his days. Indeed, the youth will die at a hundred years, and the one who misses a hundred years will be cursed.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] People will build houses and live ⌊in them⌋; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] They will not build and others live ⌊in them⌋; they will not plant and others eat. For My people’s lives will be like the lifetime of a tree. My chosen ones will fully enjoy the work of their hands.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] They will not labor without success or bear children ⌊destined⌋ for disaster, for they will be a people blessed by the LORD along with their descendants.

THERE WILL BE PEOPLE DYING IN THE MILLENNIAL REIGN OF JESUS CHRIST, but those who die at 100 years, will be considered but a YOUTH.

Zechariah 14:16-21 (ESV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And on that day there shall be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “Holy to the LORD.” And the pots in the house of the LORD shall be as the bowls before the altar.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] And every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holy to the LORD of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and take of them and boil the meat of the sacrifice in them. And there shall no longer be a trader in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.

Jackson123 · Jul 19, 2017

Nehemiah6 said:

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him,

(Both coming of the Lord and rapture)

we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way,

for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
iFor that day(both rapture ) will not come the man of lawlessness is reveal(tribulation)

summary

both second caming and tribulation happen after tribulation

tanakh · Jul 20, 2017

Jackson123 said:

The problem is that you assume the restrainer is the Holy Spirit There is nothing in the passage you quote that mentions who the restrainer is. In Revelation 7:1-4 John has a vision of the 144000 being sealed with the seal of God. To me it is very likely that the seal is the Holy Spirit, who according to this teaching supposed to have left the earth with the Church. It may come as a surprise that some members of the early Church thought the restrainer was the Roman Empire that was preventing the Antichrist from coming to power.

A very likely candidate is the Archangel Michael. Daniel calls him the Chief Prince of the people of Israel, his name means who is like God. In Daniel he fought with the Prince of Persia. In Revelation he wages war on the Dragon (Satan) and throws him out of heaven.

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