The Rapture

[RickyZ]

I am curious, has anyone in this thread changed their views since they started reading or am I the only one?

I asked that very same question about 60 pages ago

Actually I've modified my stand. I used to dismiss the 70 ad thing but have come to think it's part of a dual fulfillment. The Jews rejected their Messiah and saw tribulation because of it. That makes sense. But now the gentiles are rejecting their Christ and will soon see tribulation because of it. I'm also reconsidering another point, but I'll share that later.

 

[RickyZ]

There are 1.1 million Jewish souls which were starved, died of disease or by sword which burned up in Jerusalem that would testify that God's wrath indeed happened and how severe it was, the worst the planet had ever seen or will ever see again. The worst of it is, they knew it too but couldn't stop it. They knew they were living in those days long prophesied about.

And so are we.

 

[RickyZ]

Calm down ladies and gentlemen. Eschatology is NOT related to salvation. Salvation is all about if you are in Christ or not.




If we take a step back we can see how people can come to each view.
If you look at Jesus' words alone it is difficult not to arrive at an amillennial conclusion. It is not difficult to understand why many have a simple view of Jesus returning and people going to heaven or hell, because that is the overall scheme of things, very few Christians have studied the book of Revelation indepth, and learned all the symbols, since that is the only place where the 1000 years are mentioned in the Scriptures.


If you read the Old Testament combined with the book of Revelation it is not difficult to imagine how one can come to a conclusion of premillennialism. They see the conditions mentioned of people having long lifespans and peace on earth, they notice it cannot fit into eternity since sin and death are still present, therefore they move that to the 1000 years mentioned in Revelation 20.


So both views are within orthodoxy in my opinion. No reason to divide over it. The one thing we cannot afford to be open-minded about is soteriology.

I'm with you except for one point. Jesus and Paul both said that in those days many will turn away from Him and their faith. If you are not expecting tribulation judgment, you would not be prepared for it (assuming this model is true). Not being prepared for it, and seeing that what you believed is not true, might make you doubt the rest of it.

So, assuming the tribulation is future and we go thru it, your salvation could be at issue if you turn away.

 

[Bogadile]

I'm with you except for one point. Jesus and Paul both said that in those days many will turn away from Him and their faith. If you are not expecting tribulation judgment, you would not be prepared for it (assuming this model is true). Not being prepared for it, and seeing that what you believed is not true, might make you doubt the rest of it.

So, assuming the tribulation is future and we go thru it, your salvation could be at issue if you turn away.

This is how I am prepared: I have nothing stocked up, I live in a rental apartment and most likely I would perish within the first few minutes of the reign of the antichrist. That is my plan, to not survive.

 

[Persuaded]

This is how I am prepared: I have nothing stocked up, I live in a rental apartment and most likely I would perish within the first few minutes of the reign of the antichrist. That is my plan, to not survive.

If I were single and alone I might have the same attitude, but I have a wife and a 8 year daughter and many, many friends.
While I know that survival is in the Lord's hands, by His will, I have taken steps to prepare for what ever comes.
I will not go quietly.

 

[Bogadile]

If I were single and alone I might have the same attitude, but I have a wife and a 8 year daughter and many, many friends.
While I know that survival is in the Lord's hands, by His will, I have taken steps to prepare for what ever comes.
I will not go quietly.

You are correct, if I was in your situation I would probably do the same. Good man, God bless you. Feel free to pray that I can be in a similar situation too (married).

 

[PlainWord]

And so are we.

Perhaps. Nothing says we are.

 

[PlainWord]

This is how I am prepared: I have nothing stocked up, I live in a rental apartment and most likely I would perish within the first few minutes of the reign of the antichrist. That is my plan, to not survive.

I don't think you have to worry about Titus anymore. He died in 81.

 

[Bogadile]

I don't think you have to worry about Titus anymore. He died in 81.

I hope it is so.

 

[tanakh]

u just spiritualized an animal known as the wolf. Lord have mercy. this is proof we are in da end times, even a wolf doesnt mean a wolf anymore but its a parable. Unbelievable.

There is a recognized set of deeper spiritual meanings to names of people and places and for certain numbers that appear again and again in the Bible. Many of the Parables Jesus told contain them. Paul and OT Prophets used them. As we go deeper into the word the Holy Spirit reveals them to us and where a verse or passage appears confusing and mysterious when read on a literal level it suddenly becomes clear like a light being being turned on in a dark room.

 

[Bogadile]

There is a recognized set of deeper spiritual meanings to names of people and places and for certain numbers that appear again and again in the Bible. Many of the Parables Jesus told contain them. Paul and OT Prophets used them. As we go deeper into the word the Holy Spirit reveals them to us and where a verse or passage appears confusing and mysterious when read on a literal level it suddenly becomes clear like a light being being turned on in a dark room.

Quite intriguing, could you provide examples or a website reference? I would like to look further.

 

[iamsoandso]

In the end of digging sometimes for some things one must also explore the possibility that it was not disclosed for a reason. Irenaeus made the comment that if the name was divulged then the beast would have continued for an much longer period of time. At the time he was pointing out that the whole creation was spoken into existence by the word of God so if he had spoken the name and stated it out right then he also would come. But did not pronounce it aloud and left it unspoken,why might also be that he did it on purpose.

 

[PlainWord]

There is a recognized set of deeper spiritual meanings to names of people and places and for certain numbers that appear again and again in the Bible. Many of the Parables Jesus told contain them. Paul and OT Prophets used them. As we go deeper into the word the Holy Spirit reveals them to us and where a verse or passage appears confusing and mysterious when read on a literal level it suddenly becomes clear like a light being being turned on in a dark room.

An example of this is the phrase, "heaven and earth pass away." This has happened four times in the Bible now, most recently with the passing of Jerusalem in 70 AD. If we recall when God created the heavens and earth, they were without form, and void. So, when a powerful nation like Babylon, Edom and twice Israel passed away and were left desolate, it was like they never existed and returned to their pre- creation state. Not understanding this figurative language is causing all kinds of problems for the futurists.

 

[iamsoandso]

An example of this is the phrase, "heaven and earth pass away." This has happened four times in the Bible now, most recently with the passing of Jerusalem in 70 AD. If we recall when God created the heavens and earth, they were without form, and void. So, when a powerful nation like Babylon, Edom and twice Israel passed away and were left desolate, it was like they never existed and returned to their pre- creation state. Not understanding this figurative language is causing all kinds of problems for the futurists.

lol,the one we are speaking of is one that received a deadly wound and then returns,so if he simply was as if he never existed that would be fine. The problem comes when we ponder the point where he receives a deadly wound and then returns...

 

[PlainWord]

In the end of digging sometimes for some things one must also explore the possibility that it was not disclosed for a reason. Irenaeus made the comment that if the name was divulged then the beast would have continued for an much longer period of time. At the time he was pointing out that the whole creation was spoken into existence by the word of God so if he had spoken the name and stated it out right then he also would come. But did not pronounce it aloud and left it unspoken,why might also be that he did it on purpose.

Then there is the saying about not poking the bear, or in this case, the beast. When you are living under Roman oppression and already you've seen all of your fellow disciples killed either by Rome or its harlot and you've been exiled, do you really want to be poking that bear some more?

 

[iamsoandso]

Then there is the saying about not poking the bear, or in this case, the beast. When you are living under Roman oppression and already you've seen all of your fellow disciples killed either by Rome or its harlot and you've been exiled, do you really want to be poking that bear some more?

"or it's harlot" in all of the scriptures in Daniel is there a scripture where the harlot is riding the beast?

 

[PlainWord]

lol,the one we are speaking of is one that received a deadly wound and then returns,so if he simply was as if he never existed that would be fine. The problem comes when we ponder the point where he receives a deadly wound and then returns...

Rome did in fact experience a deadly wound to one of its heads when Nero took his own life, after he took the lives of all his relatives leaving no successor in 68 AD. Rome entered a period of civil war where the very empire was said to have died, or almost died. They entered the "year of the four emperors." Finally Vespasian, at the urging of his troops, took the throne and the wound was healed.

Nero was the 5th head, who passed ending the Julio-Claudio Dynasty and leaving the empire to hang in the balance. Then we had 3 claim the throne in rapid succession in Galba, Otho and Vitellius, none of which lasted 9 months, each essentially being killed by their successor. We don't count those heads because they never received confirmation of the Senate and did not have public support.

The 6th was Vespasian "the beast which was" meaning John wrote Revelation between end of 69 AD and April 10 70 AD. Titus, the 7th, came to Jerusalem and stayed just 6 months before returning to Rome. Following the passing of Vespasian in 79 AD, Titus took the throne for only 2 years and 2 months, the shortest reign of all the heads. Then when Titus died in 81, the beast that was, and was not, returned in Domitian. Father and two sons all had the same name; Titus Flavius Caesar, the unholy trinity of the beast.

 

[PlainWord]

"or it's harlot" in all of the scriptures in Daniel is there a scripture where the harlot is riding the beast?

You know the passage. The beast (Rome) supported the harlot (Jerusalem) in an unholy, evil relationship. Together, they killed the Son of God and got rich from robbing the people.

 

[iamsoandso]

Rome did in fact experience a deadly wound to one of its heads when Nero took his own life, after he took the lives of all his relatives leaving no successor in 68 AD. Rome entered a period of civil war where the very empire was said to have died, or almost died. They entered the "year of the four emperors." Finally Vespasian, at the urging of his troops, took the throne and the wound was healed.

Nero was the 5th head, who passed ending the Julio-Claudio Dynasty and leaving the empire to hang in the balance. Then we had 3 claim the throne in rapid succession in Galba, Otho and Vitellius, none of which lasted 9 months, each essentially being killed by their successor. We don't count those heads because they never received confirmation of the Senate and did not have public support.

The 6th was Vespasian "the beast which was" meaning John wrote Revelation between end of 69 AD and April 10 70 AD. Titus, the 7th, came to Jerusalem and stayed just 6 months before returning to Rome. Following the passing of Vespasian in 79 AD, Titus took the throne for only 2 years and 2 months, the shortest reign of all the heads. Then when Titus died in 81, the beast that was, and was not, returned in Domitian. Father and two sons all had the same name; Titus Flavius Caesar, the unholy trinity of the beast.

oop's isn't the eight the head that was and was not yet is that would ascend out of the pit Revelation 17:8 aren’t you accounting for all the wrong heads?

 

[iamsoandso]

You know the passage. The beast (Rome) supported the harlot (Jerusalem) in an unholy, evil relationship. Together, they killed the Son of God and got rich from robbing the people.

Not Daniel though you are quoting from another book?