The Rapture

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DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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And the winner is Disciple Dave, as Ahwatukee's trumpet is out of kee !!!
There is no winner. To say there is a winner is to say there is a loser, this is not a Game, there is only ONE TRUTH.


Dave please come to my midtrib thread... "The kingdom of God on earth and the rapture to heaven".
These pretrib believers are a waste of precious time.
That was not a very Godly thing to say at all. Did God come down for the Righteous or for sinners? i did not come to teach midtrib to those who already believe midtrib. i want to teach to pretrib and post-trib beleivers what Scriptures teach and what God has told me. Nobody is a waste of time, if your words do not come back void.

We are all still learning, so I would appreciate your input.
i will try if time permits.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

Using your same logic in how you interpret this verse explain to me the following verse?

Mat_5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

What then? Can a person look upon a MAN to lust after him does not commit adultery?
Can a person look upon a child to lust after them does not commit adultery?
Can a person look upon the same sex to lust after them does not commit adultery?
Can a person look upon a beast to lust after it does not commit adultery?
OR does woman above mean men, children, beasts, and same sex?

Your assumption, based on YOUR OWN STUDIES is flawed.

Mat_5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Using your same logic that if it says woman, it can't possibly mean something other than a woman. That would mean Anyone who lusts after MEN, children, or beasts does NOT commit adultery, because the above verse says "woman" Therefore according to your own logic in the way you interpret, it could ONLY mean women? Right? Or does the word Woman above apply to men as well?

Rev_14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


Your interpretation of this verse implies that women can't possibly mean men also. Therefore YOU have deduced it is a male child. Tell me something, can a woman be defiled by a woman? Yes or no? How are you not ASSUMING that the word "THEY" is ONLY referring to men?

The 144,000 are children that make it through the Tribulation Period, This is what God told me when talking about that topic, and it is also something that i seen in a dream/vision (i know not which). 144,000 are sealed in their foreheads. YOU say contrary to Scriptures, YOU say it is one male child. Believe Scriptures not YOUR OWN STUDIES. Scriptures plainly teach that 12,000 from each tribe are sealed. Every time it refers to the 144,000 it is plural. they are virgin(s). You do error in YOUR interpretation of the 144,000 PEOPLE are are sealed in their forehead(s).
If a person believes as you do, they believe contrary to the Word of God.

You teach, the 144,000 are NOT 144,000 people, but is a male child. Contrary to sound doctrine.
Scriptures teach, they are people chosen by God, 12,000 from each Tribe, and even gives the names of Each Tribe that 12,000 people are chose from. These are sealed with a seal of God in their foreheads. THEY (plural) are virgins (plural). THEY (plural) have not had sexual relations with another.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


Tell me. Are there 144,000 sealed of all the Tribes of Israel or NO? What do YOU say? Scriptures plainly teaches 144,000 are sealed, YOU teach something contrary to that, don't you?

Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

Are 12,000 sealed from the Tribe of Juda? This verse plainly says and teaches that 12,000 are sealed from the Tribe of Juda. What do YOU say, is that TRUE or not. Are 12,000 people sealed from the Tribe of Juda or not? Should i believe Scriptures or YOU?

You do greatly error in interpreting the Scriptures as YOU see fit. ignoring plain Scriptures because they do not line up with YOUR own interpretations. And YOU double error in teaching others YOUR false interpretations that don't even line up with the Holy inspired Scriptures. If Scriptures teach that 144,000 people are sealed, then i assure you 144,000 people are sealed. If Scriptures plainly teach 12,000 are chosen from each Tribe, then i assure you 12,000 people from each of the Tribes are chosen and sealed. People believe Scriptures NOT what men teach. And Ahwatukee is a man.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
DiscipleDave...I have seen someone who looks just like your avitar and spews forth the same bunch of BS as you have just got through posting.

I would recommend you listen to someone like Ahwatukee. His advice is solid.

Are you suggesting i should believe Ahwatukee over what God told me in conversations? Sorry, i choose to believe God and not the interpretations of a man. Ahwatukee freely admits that his knowledge comes from his own studies, his own interpretations, his own intellect.
Scriptures teach interpretation belong to God. i have not interpreted the Bible, as if i had the authority to interpret the Word of God, i am but a man. God interprets Scriptures. What i teach is not from my own thinking, my own mind, my own studies, but what i teach is what God told me. You are trying to tell me to believe a man over what God told me. This i can't nor won't ever do. God is Right, man is corruptible even myself included. But what God has told me, is TRUTH. Not my fault nor God's fault that you do not believe God speaks to people as He did in the past, today, and in the future.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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I mean, if all these ones disappear to heaven, will that not be a sure sign that the Lord is active and here ?

If there is a pretrib rapture then no way can our Lord come as a "thief in the night".



I'm sorry Allenbee, but I don't understand your logic. Those in Christ do not know at what time the Lord will come to gather them, as it is always imminent. There is therefore no sign preceding the gathering, for those in Christ will not know it until it happens, and that like a thief in the night.

Now I said; I mean, if all these ones disappear to heaven, will that not be a sure sign that the Lord is active and here ? ( So...AFTER THEY DISAPPEAR TO HEAVEN. NOT BEFORE as he crookedly says.)


As I said, the church is not going to know when they disappear to heaven until it happens. As far as it being a sign that the Lord is here, once the church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air, He will take the whole group back to the Father's house. Neither the Lord nor the church is going to remain on the earth. So I don't know what you mean by "the Lord is active and hear." It also depends on what the inhabitants of the world believe regarding the gathering of the church, as the antichrist may have deceive them regarding this so that they believe something else.

If there is a pretrib rapture then no way can our Lord come as a "thief in the night".... "Immediately after the tribulation of those days".


The scripture above is not pertaining to the gathering of the church, but when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. Remember I told you that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events. If you make them the same event, then your interpretation of end-time events will always be in error.

The gathering of the church will have taken place at least seven years prior to the scripture that you provided above. In fact, the church will be returning with the Lord to the earth when that scripture takes place. In other words the church will not go through the tribulation mentioned in the scripture above because it is God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which we are not appointed to suffer. Therefore, we must be removed from the earth prior to when that God's tribulation takes place.

I assure you, I do not twist scripture, but contend for the truth. You appear to just be repeating what you have heard instead of studying these things for yourself. You say "TRUE FACT" yet you don't even know that the scripture that you provided has nothing to do with the gathering of the church. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" refers to after the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have completed, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. The church is not gathered at this event, but as previously stated, will be gathered at least seven years prior to this event.


 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Ahwatukee freely admits that his knowledge comes from his own studies, his own interpretations, his own intellect.
You misquote me once again DiscipleDave! I never said that my knowledge of God's word was from my own intellect! Being in Christ I have the Holy Spirit who teaches and confirms all that I believe and understand from His word. It is not just my own interpretation, as you have made it out to be.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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How is it terrible, you say because it speaks of 144,000 that are not defiled by women, to mean it is women ONLY. i have posted a relevant verse that uses the word WOMAN to mean not only women but others as well.
This verse which says "these are those who did not defile themselves with woman" identifies this group of 144,000 as being all males. There is no reason to go to other scriptures to understand what this scripture is saying, as the answer is right in the context. You say that you get your understanding from God, then the Spirit should have given you understanding of this, just as he has given to me.

You teach, the 144,000 are NOT 144,000 people, but is a male child
You seem to be in the habit of misquoting me. I have always believed and taught that the 144,000 are individual men of that same number from the twelve tribes of Israel. The "Male Child" is a collect name representing the entire group. Regarding "collective names" I used the comparison of the man who was possessed by "Legion." That one man was possessed by thousands of demons that were collectively known as "Legion." Any sports team is called by one collective name, Dodgers, Panthers, Chargers, etc., but are made up of many individual players. Why is this concept so hard for you to understand?

That said, how is it that you can't understand that the "Male Child" is a collective name representing the 144,000 who are all males?

Now please stop misquoting me regarding scripture by paying attention to what I am saying. If you continue misquoting me, are you performing the same error with scripture? So that you understand once and for all, below is my definition of the 144,000:

144,000 = 144,000 individual men who belong to the twelve tribes of Israel, twelve thousand from each tribe, who are collectively known as the male child.

Therefore, please do not quote me as saying "You teach, the 144,000 are NOT 144,000 people, but is a male child " as I have never said nor taught that.

 
May 11, 2014
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Can we all stop resorting to the "God told me im right, therefore everyone else is wrong" statements? Everyone claims to be taught by the same Holy Spirit yet comes to different conclusions. This makes Christians look really bad to outsiders. Not to mention, often times this is used as leverage for insecure people who do not have much credibility. By claiming direct revelation from God they (in the eyes of some) gain that credibility that they want.
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
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The Scripture you offer does not prove your statement about the last trump.
You can not prove with Scripture that the last trump of 1Cor 15:52 and the seventh trump are not the same.
This is what i have said to him as well. He says it is not, but that is based on his own interpretation of the verse. i even asked him to explain what last Trumpet sounding 1Cor 15:52 could possibly being referred to? Which he did not answer that question. i know ICor15:52 is referring to the 7th Trumpet sounding in Revelation, he can not disprove that using any Scripture, he does not believe that, because it does not fit into HIS OWN interpretation of the Word of God that he himself has came up with, as if a mere human could interpret the Word of God.
Interpretations belong to God, NOT TO MAN.

Dan 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;


Daniel did not reveal the dream to the King. God revealed the dream to Daniel and Daniel told the King what God told him. Daniel through his own intellect did not know the dream. God told him the Dream.

Gen 40:8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.


Joseph didn't interpret the dream. God told Joseph the dream.

Gen 41:15 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I have dreamed a dream, and there is none that can interpret it: and I have heard say of thee, that thou canst understand a dream to interpret it. And Joseph answered Pharaoh, saying, It is not in me: God shall give Pharaoh an answer of peace.


Again Joseph testifies the interpretation does not come from JOSEPH but is from God.

Amo_3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but He revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.


Woe to this generation who take thought they can interpret the Word of God by and through their own intellect. These are deceived and do not know the TRUTH, therefore do not listen to them at all. And double Woe to them who interpret the Word of God and teach others that what they have come up with via their own intellect is the TRUTH.

Interpretations belong to God
God reveals His secrets to His prophets.
Those who take thought they can interpret the Word of God have put their own selves on a pedestal, as if a man could interpret the Word of God.

Man will never reveal secrets of God via their own studies, their own intellect.
Secrets of God, and mysteries of God, and interpretations of God are GIVEN by God to whomsoever He chooses to reveal them to. Any man that interprets the Word of God thinks him/herself to be something, when they are nothing at all, because they do not know or understand that it is God who reveals interpretation of His Word, NOT MEN.

I Cor 15:52 is referring to the last Trumpet sounding in Revelations, How do i know that to be TRUE, because God told me it was so.

i also know that one day when the Earth is being destroyed by God to make way for the New Earth, and Jesus did not come and get the Church before great tribulations such as never was nor ever shall be again comes upon the Earth, and the anti-christ will say on TV/Radio/Youtube/satellite/cellphones "Where is your God now?" A great falling away will happen. Not only with the Christian Faith, but all religions of the world will hear that speech in their own language, and many will fall away from their own faiths all over the world. Christians will fall away because they have been decieved in believing that Christ would come and get them BEFORE all the Tribulations would start, and since He does not come when they think He should have come, they will altogether doubt a God even exists. The anti-christ will unite the world together, putting all religions to death, talking about bringing all people together for the Human Race, and not for any God. So when you see the world being torn apart by fire, asteroids hitting the planet, Earth quakes like never before, tidal waves, floods, hurricanes over dry lands, animals dying off in droves, fish dying, people dying everywhere, and then a man gets on TV and says "Where is your God now" Then you will know that all that i have said is TRUE, and realize that you should have been teaching all these years what you heard me teach, to save souls from falling away from the Faith.
If what i teach is not from God let me die a horrible, long, slow, painful death, and suffer in Hell for all Eternity. i don't know what else to say to all of you to try to help you to understand that what i teach is indeed from God Himself. But LO, in the last days men will love themselves and will not care to hear the TRUTH, from a crazy person who thinks he has had conversations with God Himself.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
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Ahwatukee freely admits that his knowledge comes from his own studies, his own interpretations, his own intellect.
You misquote me once again DiscipleDave! I never said that my knowledge of God's word was from my own intellect! Being in Christ I have the Holy Spirit who teaches and confirms all that I believe and understand from His word. It is not just my own interpretation, as you have made it out to be.
Not this time. You specifically said that your knowledge does not come from Man but from your own studies of the Scriptures, i laughed out loud and replied that you are a man, remember? You said your knowledge does not come from man, but you are a man.

Also the Holy Ghosts job is not to reveal secrets to anyone, the Holy Ghost will never assist a man to try to interpret the Word of God. The Holy Ghost knows that interpretations belong to God and to God only, God reveals His secrets to whom God will reveal them. The Holy Ghost can lead us here or there but tell us nothing, as in communication. The Holy Ghost will not reveal something that is God's to reveal. We Christians are NOT to try to interpret the Word of God, Therefore the Holy Ghost will not help a person try to interpret the Word of God, when that interpretation belongs to God revealing secrets to His Prophets. Does the Holy Ghost reveal secrets to the prophets or does Scriptures plainly teach God reveals secrets to the prophets? The Holy Ghost in a person will lead a person to search the Scriptures to see if those things which i have said are True or Not True.

You say above "It is not just my own interpretation" Again, admitting that it is YOUR OWN interpretation. You plainly admit it is YOUR interpretation and that the Holy Ghost somehow confirms it to you that YOUR interpretation is correct. Truly i would like to know exactly how the HOLY Ghost confirms that what YOU interpret is correct, could you enlighten me on that matter, how does the Holy Ghost speak to you and tells you that you are right in what YOU have interpreted? This should be interesting if you so choose to answer that question.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
69
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How is it terrible, you say because it speaks of 144,000 that are not defiled by women, to mean it is women ONLY. i have posted a relevant verse that uses the word WOMAN to mean not only women but others as well.
This verse which says "these are those who did not defile themselves with woman" identifies this group of 144,000 as being all males. There is no reason to go to other scriptures to understand what this scripture is saying, as the answer is right in the context.


Know you not that Scriptures interprets Scriptures. The only reason you say that above verse does not need to be compared with other verses in Scriptures is because of your own interpretation of that verse. YOU deem it not necessary to interpret that Scripture with other Scriptures, because if you did do that, then you might have to change what you interpret that verse to mean.

You say that you get your understanding from God, then the Spirit should have given you understanding of this, just as he has given to me.
You misunderstand what i have said many times, and say over and over again. What i teach is from God. Not from my understanding. If God tells me, "One day the anti-christ will say "Where is your God now" and the whole world will see and hear that" It is NOT my understanding that one day the anti-christ will say that. It is what God said he would say, and that has nothing to do with my understanding. So you do error in saying or thinking i get my understanding from God, that is NOT TRUE, what i teach is from God, NOT from my own understanding, and what i teach has nothing to do with me whatsoever, save i only repeat what He has told me.



You seem to be in the habit of misquoting me. I have always believed and taught that the 144,000 are individual men of that same number from the twelve tribes of Israel. The "Male Child" is a collect name representing the entire group. Regarding "collective names" I used the comparison of the man who was possessed by "Legion." That one man was possessed by thousands of demons that were collectively known as "Legion." Any sports team is called by one collective name, Dodgers, Panthers, Chargers, etc., but are made up of many individual players. Why is this concept so hard for you to understand?

That said, how is it that you can't understand that the "Male Child" is a collective name representing the 144,000 who are all males?
i will answer again. i now understand what you mean and have apologized for misquoting you. If the Holy Ghost talked with you, then the Spirit would have revealed to you that i did not do it a second time, but the second post was said the same day that i misquoted you. So then i did not do it a second time AFTER you gave me knowledge that i misquoted you. And as i said before, i now understand what you mean but, It's just not TRUE.

Now please stop misquoting me regarding scripture by paying attention to what I am saying.
Please try to pay attention when a post was made. Any post prior to today (When i was made known that i misquoted you 10/17/17) is going to misquote you, because it was only today 10/17/17 that i was made aware that i misquoted you. So if you read a post that i wrote YESTERDAY, i did not misquote you again as you implied that i keep on doing. Please pay attention to when a post was made. There will not be any post from me misquoting you about the 144,000 again, AFTER today, when i was made known that is what i did.

If you continue misquoting me, are you performing the same error with scripture? So that you understand once and for all, below is my definition of the 144,000:
As i have said now three times. i now understand what you mean. Please pay attention to the dates a post was made. Any post prior to today is in all likelihood going to misquote you. Do you understand that?

= 144,000 individual men who belong to the twelve tribes of Israel, twelve thousand from each tribe, who are collectively known as the male child.

Therefore, please do not quote me as saying "You teach, the 144,000 are NOT 144,000 people, but is a male child " as I have never said nor taught that.

Again, AFTER TODAY, i understand that i misquoted you. After TODAY i understand what you mean. If now you read a post from me from last week, it is probably going to misquote you. That is NOT misquoting you Again, like you are accusing me of. Is there any post were i misquote you concerning the 144,000 AFTER you made known to me that i misquoted you? The answer is NONE. i have not misquoted you even ONCE after you made me aware that i misquoted you. wow.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
69
48
Can we all stop resorting to the "God told me im right, therefore everyone else is wrong" statements? Everyone claims to be taught by the same Holy Spirit yet comes to different conclusions. This makes Christians look really bad to outsiders. Not to mention, often times this is used as leverage for insecure people who do not have much credibility. By claiming direct revelation from God they (in the eyes of some) gain that credibility that they want.
What of a person who God does give divine revelation too. Does that person testify that his/her knowledge comes from God or from himself? If that person is telling the TRUTH, then what?

What? Anyone who says God told them something, is trying to gain credibility that they want?

What is God to do with a generation that believes God does not speak to people any more? These same people will never hear His voice, ever!!!
A person must first believe that He does, before He will. Woe to this wicked generation which does not believe our God speaks to His children any more. Woe to them indeed, for how will they believe any person who actually does have conversations with God?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
69
48
Is it so hard to believe God speaks to people like He has always done in the past? Really?


OH, i see, because He never spoke to you, it is not possible for Him to speak to another. Sometimes i wish He never spoke to me in conversation, do you know how crazy that makes me look to this people in this generation? Sometimes i wish He never spoke to me, because that now that He has stopped speaking to me since 1994, i long to hear His voice again, a ache to hear Him again, i weep because He does not speak to me any more. i would have been better off to never have heard His voice. But for your sake (and mine too) i am thankful that He did. i would not be walking the walk that i walk today if it were not for Him talking with me back then.

Is it so hard to believe God speaks to people? Seriously?



^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 
Apr 15, 2017
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The 7th trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52,and the 7th trumpet of Revelation are the same trumpet.

It is the resurrection of the saints,and to be absent from the body,is to be present with the Lord,but not all will sleep,but all will be changed,and at the 7th trumpet then those saints that are on earth shall be gathered unto Christ,and the dead shall rise first,and be changed,and then those that remain on earth are changed,which is a glorified body.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The mystery of God is finished,for it is the toppling of the Gentile nations.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The ones that have died in the Lord,and waiting for those saints on earth to be caught up to be with them,and when that happens then Jesus will avenge the saints.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The saints shall be given in to the beast's hands for three and one half years,and he will persecute them,and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the saints then comes the end when the Son shall deliver the kingdom up to the Father,and Jesus will put the world down,and take over the earth.

The 7th trumpet of 1 Corinthians,and the 7th trumpet of Revelation,are the same,which is the resurrection of the saints,and when that happens then Gentile governments,and national operation,shall cease,and Jesus will take over the earth.

Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

The 6 trumpets are 6 disasters,warning to the world,that happen upon the earth,as a warning to turn to God,for He is giving them a chance to repent of their evil ways,and turn to Him.

After the 6th trumpet the world does not turn to God,and repent of their sins,but keep on trying to establish peace on earth by their own methods,so God allows the man of sin to rule over them,and when he persecutes for three and one half years,all who keep the commandments of God,and hold the testimony of Jesus Christ,then all things are finished in Daniel,and then comes the end when the Son shall deliver the kingdom up to the Father,and Jesus puts the world down,and the saints possess the kingdom.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

After the beast makes war against the saints for three and one half years,then those that remain on earth are gathered unto Christ,and then the wrath of God is poured upon the world,leading up to the battle of Armageddon,which is the beast and the world going against Jerusalem,where they are defeated by Jesus.

Why would people think the 7th trumpet of 1 Corinthians,and of Revelation,would be different,for there is not 2 sets of 7 trumpets,but 1 set of 7 trumpets.

And it is true that some people get an interpretation that they believe is right,and if it is wrong they try to fit everything in to that interpretation instead of it being a red flag to them,and they try to harmonize scriptures.

A lot of denominations do that,and it is strange that they do not see the red flags going against them.

But I will not be arrogant,but say,I hope that God helps me to not fall in to that situation,but I try to go by what the word says,and if a red flag appears to check it out,and harmonize scriptures,instead of ignoring it,and keep going by my interpretation.

One good example is not saved by works,and saved by works,for it is told both accounts,but many people hold unto one or the other,and do not try to harmonize scriptures,which it is not a contradiction.

Faith alone,not saved by works,when we first confess Christ.

Charity,love in action,is greater than faith,and Paul said he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains,but if he did not have charity,then he is nothing,James said if they do not have charity,then their faith is dead,and John said the love of God does not dwell in them.

Faith works through love,for charity is greater than faith.

Faith without works is dead,and a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,for to lack those works would mean not being led of the Spirit,which is a lack of love,which results in a lack of faith,and we are saved by grace through faith,so we have to have the right perspective of love,to have faith,to have grace.

The first Church in Revelation,were fallen,and left their first love,and Jesus told them to do the first work,and repent,and the fifth Church Jesus told them to remember what they was taught at the beginning,and that their works were not perfect before God,and told them to repent.

Which some can lack allowing the Spirit to lead them,and then they lack in love,and then lack in faith,and need to repent,which Paul,James,and John,are pointing that out.

But a lot of people do not try to harmonize scriptures,but some say not saved by works,and some saved by works,but not saved by works when we are in the flesh confessing Christ,and faith without works is dead when we receive the Spirit for then we are spiritual.

A lot of people that are wrong somewhere in their interpretation will think they got it down,and will try to fit the scriptures to their interpretation,instead of it being a red flag that they must deal with and harmonize scriptures.

Maybe they do not like the fact that they might have been stupid enough to believe something wrong,so they will not consider that it might be wrong.lol.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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i know ICor15:52 is referring to the 7th Trumpet sounding in Revelation
And you would be wrong Dave! As I continue to make known to you, the problem with interpreting the 7th trumpet as being synonymous with the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52, is that the 7th trumpet, as well as the seals and previous trumpets, are all apart of God's wrath, which the church is not appointed to suffer. So by your interpretation you have the church being put through God's wrath.

The church will have been gathered prior to the first seal being opened and therefore will not be on the earth when the 7th trumpet is sounded.

Nowhere in the context of the scripture regarding the 7th trumpet is there any allusion to the church being caught up. In addition, like the seals and bowl judgments, as well as the rest of the trumpets, they are all plagues of wrath and have no blessing associated with them. Just because the word "trumpet" is used in both scriptures is no reason to interpret them as being the same trumpet, which is your on-going error.

i even asked him to explain what last Trumpet sounding 1Cor 15:52 could possibly being referred to?
I answered this question saying that whatever type of trumpet this is, it is the last trumpet of its kind. It doesn't mean that it is referring to the 7th trumpet judgment.

Woe to this generation who take thought they can interpret the Word of God by and through their own intellect. These are deceived and do not know the TRUTH, therefore do not listen to them at all. And double Woe to them who interpret the Word of God and teach others that what they have come up with via their own intellect is the TRUTH.

Interpretations belong to God
God reveals His secrets to His prophets.
Those who take thought they can interpret the Word of God have put their own selves on a pedestal, as if a man could interpret the Word of God.

Man will never reveal secrets of God via their own studies, their own intellect.
Secrets of God, and mysteries of God, and interpretations of God are GIVEN by God to whomsoever He chooses to reveal them to. Any man that interprets the Word of God thinks him/herself to be something, when they are nothing at all, because they do not know or understand that it is God who reveals interpretation of His Word, NOT MEN.
Regarding the above, anyone who doesn't agree with your teachings is your definition of someone who is teaching by their own interpretation and their own understanding. It is the way in which you attempt to discredit others regarding their teachings on the word of God.

I Cor 15:52 is referring to the last Trumpet sounding in Revelations, How do i know that to be TRUE, because God told me it was so.
God did not tell you the above information and that because it would contradict His own word. Below is the scriptural reasons as to why the 7th trumpet cannot be referring to the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52.

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."- 1 Thes.1:10

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thes.5:9

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth." - Rev.3:10

Because you continue to accuse me of not providing scripture, which I always include when I am teaching, they are listed above.

According to the scriptures above, Jesus rescues us from God's coming wrath, we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and Jesus said that for those who endure patiently He would keep them out of that hour of trial, which is another designation for God's time of wrath. Notice that the Lord keeps them out of it completely.

Therefore, since the 7th trumpet is one of the plagues of God's wrath and the church is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, then the church cannot be here while God's wrath is taking place, which means that the church cannot be on the earth at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Here's another scripture for you:

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

This means that for all who are in Christ, God's wrath no longer rests upon them and therefore must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

To reiterate, since the 7th trumpet is one of the plagues of God's wrath the church cannot be gathered here and that because in order to get to the 7th trumpet, it would mean that the church would have to go through the seals of wrath, as well as the first 6 trumpets of wrath, which again we are not appointed to suffer.

In short, interpreting the 7th trumpet as being the "last trumpet" it would put the church through the majority of God's wrath of God which we are not appointed to suffer. Can you understand this scriptural reasoning now DiscipleDave? It is very clear in its meaning and is supported by God's word.
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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The 7th trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52,and the 7th trumpet of Revelation are the same trumpet.
Hello MattforJesus! Regarding this see post #7613. The 7th trumpet of wrath is not the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52

Why would people think the 7th trumpet of 1 Corinthians,and of Revelation,would be different,for there is not 2 sets of 7 trumpets,but 1 set of 7 trumpets.
There are in fact many types of trumpets representing different events. To make the 7th trumpet the same as the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52, would be to put the church through God's wrath, for that is what the 7th trumpet is, one of God's plagues of wrath. This cancels out the prospect of the church being gathered at the 7th trumpet because it would put them through the seals, trumpets which are all God's coming wrath. Not to mention the fact that there is nothing in the context surrounding the 7th trumpet that says anything about the church being gathered. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are plagues of wrath, not blessings.

By making the 7th trumpet the "last trumpet" you contradict other scriptures.
 

Iconoclast

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May 27, 2017
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Ahwatukee

Hello AHw,

In saying "last day" Jesus is not speaking about a specific day,
It seems like he was speaking of the last day...singular. the day of bodily resurrection

but the last days
The biblical last days..began at the incarnation and the cross;
heb1;
[h=1]Hebrews 1King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Acts2;[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall [/FONT]
Another question to consider....was it the last days of the world as we know it, or the last days of the Jewish theocracy?


i.e. during the end time.
The end of the theocracy? ..70 ad.

In Revelation 20:4-6 where it states "this is the first resurrection"
I believe there is a Spiritual resurrection, and a physical resurrection.
if you try to have the church resurrected there,
I do not have to try because it speaks of believers who were out to death[church members]

i
t would put us through the time of God's wrath, which would be in contradiction to the church not being appointed to suffer God's wrath
\Believers do not undergo Gods wrath,as clearly the second death has no power over us;

6 [FONT=&quot]Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]on such the second death hath no power, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.[/FONT]
and Jesus rescuing us from that coming wrath.[/
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
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Ahwatukee



"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."- 1 Thes.1:10
we do not go into second death....
"
But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrathbut to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thes.5:9
we do not go into second death...
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trialbeing about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth." - Rev.3:10
A
ccording to the scriptures above, Jesus rescues us from God's coming wrath, we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and Jesus said that for those who endure patiently He would keep them out of that hour of trial, which is another designation for God's time of wrath. Notice that the Lord keeps them out of it completely.
that is the white throne judgment
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Ahwatukee


we do not go into second death....
"
we do not go into second death...


A
that is the white throne judgment
No Iconoclast! I have heard this argument before. People just use that apologetic in order to support their belief that the church will be here during God's coming wrath. What you are not understanding is 1) the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and 2). That God's wrath was poured out on Jesus satisfying it completely so that God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. We are not appointed to suffer any wrath period!

Those who are in Christ are neither appointed to the wrath that is coming upon this earth nor the wrath at the great white throne judgment. Why would you think that we are not appointed to suffer through one but not the other? We are not appointed to suffer any wrath at all and that because Jesus satisfied it on our behalf. The church will be removed prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath.
 
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Is it so hard to believe God speaks to people like He has always done in the past? Really?


OH, i see, because He never spoke to you, it is not possible for Him to speak to another.
The reason it is hard to believe is that we have person A saying God spoke to him, and person B saying God spoke to him, and they are saying and preaching different things :D So obviously someone has the wrong channel tuned in. Do you expect us to just believe you because you said so on an internet forum? In that case God spoke to me as well, im the prophet of the new reformation, everyone else is wrong and i am right.
Then someone else comes along and says "No God told me you are wrong".
So that is the problem, not that I do not believe God can speak, but when you have so many people claiming it and teaching contradictory things, it does set up red flags.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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So that is the problem, not that I do not believe God can speak, but when you have so many people claiming it and teaching contradictory things, it does set up red flags.
That is why we have the written Word of God "which abideth forever". No matter who claims that he or she has received a direct revelation from God, if it contradicts or controverts what is clearly revealed in Scripture, then it is of no consequence. Indeed it is delusion. That is why the apostle John says that we are to "try" or test the spirits, since devils (demons) will produce doctrines also. They are called seducing spirits.

Getting back to the issue of the Rapture, we have tremendous confusion. Some Christians are naive enough to say "Well I don't see the word 'rapture' in the Bible, therefore there is no such thing". Others claim that poor old Margaret McDonald invented the Rapture! Others insist that unless you tie the Rapture to the Tribulation, it cannot possibly be a Rapture. Others insist that the second coming of Christ WITH His saints is identical to the Rapture, where Christ comes FOR His saints. The absurdity of that escapes them. Others are presented with the words of Christ reminding His people and His servants that His coming for them is IMMINENT, and they simply dismiss those Scripture without a second thought.
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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The reason it is hard to believe is that we have person A saying God spoke to him, and person B saying God spoke to him, and they are saying and preaching different things :D So obviously someone has the wrong channel tuned in. Do you expect us to just believe you because you said so on an internet forum? In that case God spoke to me as well, im the prophet of the new reformation, everyone else is wrong and i am right.
Then someone else comes along and says "No God told me you are wrong".
So that is the problem, not that I do not believe God can speak, but when you have so many people claiming it and teaching contradictory things, it does set up red flags.
This is why I told DiscipleDave that he did not hear from God that the 7th trumpet is the "last trumpet" of Revelation, as he claims, and that because that claim contradicts other scriptures in that it would put the church through the seals and trumpet plagues of God's wrath, which we as believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer.

God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And because God will be pouring out His wrath during that entire seven years, then believers within the church cannot enter into that time period, but will be gathered prior to the first seal being opened.

In addition and Based on DiscipleDave's chart, he has the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven in the middle of the seven years, which at face value is just absurd, since the chronology of events has the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven after the millennial period and after the great white throne judgment, when the new heaven and new earth are created. The new Jerusalem will never touch down on this current earth, but will come down after this current heaven and earth have passed away and the new heaven and new earth are created. (See Rev.20:11, 21:1-2)

Just as Nehemiah6 mentioned, if someone claims that they have received information from God and it contradicts what is written in His word, then it is false. For God is not going to contradict His own word, which is exactly what DiscipleDave is doing with his claims.