The sign of justification by faith (Hebrews chapter 4)

[Roberth]

Ridiculous. Circumcision was not an unbearable yoke..

As a means of salvation it was. Why?

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

In other words if you make circumcision a condition for salvation then, to be fair, you must obey all the law to be justified. That's a yoke of bondage!

 

[oldhermit]

Ridiculous. Circumcision was not an unbearable yoke. Quite the contrary; it was a source of pride. It was done on an 8-day old child, and never had to be thought about again except in admiration that it made one a member of the old covenant.

The unbearable yoke that Peter was referring to was the law.

This guy is right that circumcision is not a matter for salvation but over all, he really does not understand what he is talking about but I have learned from a previous thread that it is pointless to try to explain anything to him.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

As a means of salvation it was. Why?

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

In other words if you make circumcision a condition for salvation then, to be fair, you must obey all the law to be justified. That's a yoke of bondage!

Oh OK. I didn't know that's what you meant.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This guy is right that circumcision is not a matter for salvation but over all, he really does not understand what he is talking about but I have learned from a previous thread that it is pointless to try to explain anything to him.

Did I misunderstand him in my last response?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If Abraham, who was righteous by faith, received circumcision wouldn't that put him in the camp of the Judaizers?

No because it's about keeping the law, not circumcision itself. Paul used the term circumcision to mean justification by law.

 

[oldhermit]

Did I misunderstand him in my last response?

No, I think you understood him correctly. All I was giving him credit for was the fact that he does not connect circumcision to salvation, unless I have misunderstood what he is saying. I have really only skimmed his posts.

Got to go. Have a class to prepare for.

 

[Roberth]

No because it's about keeping the law, not circumcision itself. Paul used the term circumcision to mean justification by law.

Here's the demands of the Judaizers:

Act 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

So it was both....You must keep the law of Moses and be circumcised in order to go to heaven.

 

[Roberth]

he really does not understand what he is talking about

Here we go again. Are you, Sir, infallible? No. So can it....

 

[justpassinthrough]

Circumcision as given to Abraham was not a shadow.

The Sabbath as a sign of justification by faith, is not a shadow. It's linked to the gospel, or "His rest". Its a New Covenant sign.

Why don't you just relax? I've given you my plan:

The Sabbath points to the 7th prophetic Day of Rest, in which we will rest with Him for 1000 years.


This will be the 7th prophetic Day, or seven thousandth year.


We will have our resurrected bodies that will contain no sin, in which we will have ceased from the war of the flesh, striving against the Spirit.

Furthermore all our enemies will have been removed, as we will have rest from all our enemies, the last enemy being conquered id death.


We who believe enter that rest now by faith, and when He comes at the end of the age, we will enjoy that rest in reality.


For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’”

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. Hebrews 4:3-11



There is the rest to come that the Sabbath points to.



JPT

 

[KJV1611]

Ridiculous. Circumcision was not an unbearable yoke. Quite the contrary; it was a source of pride. It was done on an 8-day old child, and never had to be thought about again except in admiration that it made one a member of the old covenant.

The unbearable yoke that Peter was referring to was the law.

It was done on the 8th day because the number 8 in the bible represents new beginnings... just thought I would throw that in because it's so cool.

 

[DP]

In other words if you make circumcision a condition for salvation then, to be fair, you must obey all the law to be justified. That's a yoke of bondage!

Same applies to sabbath keeping per the old covenant. If one thinks sabbath keeping is necessary to Salvation then they place themselves back in bondage to the law also.

 

[Roberth]

Gen 16:1 Now Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, "the LORD has kept me from having children. (Notice she blames God) Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her." Abram agreed to what Sarai said. 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4 He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.

Now, was this sexual act, an act of faith or were they trying to help God keep His promise?

This act was an act of unbelief.

Now how did God respond to Abram's lack of faith in His promise?

Gen 17;1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.

In other words, Abram, believe in my promises and stop trying to help Me.

15 Then God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, 16 .... I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her.”

17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!”

19 Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him....

Because of Abram's unbelief, in his efforts to help God produce the child of promise, God waited until it was biologically AND medically impossible for Sarah and Abraham to produce a child. Then God produced Issac.

And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Romans 4;19-22

 

[Roberth]

Same applies to sabbath keeping per the old covenant. If one thinks sabbath keeping is necessary to Salvation then they place themselves back in bondage to the law also.

And, at the same time, the same is true with murder, theft, adultery, etc. Hmmm...

 

[Roberth]

Gen 12:1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you. 2 "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you"

verse 7 The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring I will give this land."

Gen 13:4 The LORD said to Abram after Lot had parted from him, "Lift up your eyes from where you are and look north and south, east and west. 15 All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring forever. 16 I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted.

Gen 15:1 After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward." 2 But Abram said, "O Sovereign LORD, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?" 3 And Abram said, "You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir." 4 Then the word of the LORD came to him: "This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir." 5 He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars--if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be." 6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Notice that over and over God promises Abram that the number his offspring, from his own body, will be count as the stars of the sky. But so far Abram is childless.

Abram was 75 when God made him this promise. See Genesis 12:4

Now, in Genesis chapter 16, Abram is 86 years old (see Gen 16:16) and God still hasn't given Abram a child. So Abram has waited 11 years and still the promised child hasn't arrived.

Abram probably thought, "God, it took you 6 days to create the earth, how long does it take you to keep your promise?"

Well, after 11 years of no child, Sarah comes up with an idea. Her idea was let's help God keep His promise. Does that sound like faith or does it sound like works? Yes, the latter. Did Abram agree? Yes, let's read this:

Gen 16:1 Now Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, "The LORD has kept me from having children. (Notice she blames God) Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her." Abram agreed to what Sarai said. 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4 He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.

Now, was this sexual act, an act of faith or were they trying to help God keep His promise?

No, it wasn't an act of faith, but Abram was still righteous by faith, even though his faith was wavering.

More latter.

Now, why did God give Abraham circumcision...it's obvious.

 

[Mantvydas]

Peter not rejected cercumsicion look to this [h=1]Galatians 2:7[/h]

“But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;”
​

 

[Roberth]

Now, why did God give Abraham circumcision...it's obvious.

Because God promised a child to Abram thought Sarai, but when that child didn't come 11 years later, they decided that God needed help. This was not an act of faith, but an act of unbelief.

Why circumcision (the cutting away of the foreskin)? Because Abram tired to help God keep his promise by having sexual intercourse with Hagar. The cutting away of foreskin symbolized the cutting away of unbelief. It symbolized to have no confidence in the flesh, but rather in the promises of God. That's true circumcision as given to Abram.

 

[DP]

And, at the same time, the same is true with murder, theft, adultery, etc. Hmmm...

Yes, for like Apostle Paul said, the law was not made for the righteous, but for the wicked and ungodly.

 

[Roberth]

Yes, for like Apostle Paul said, the law was not made for the righteous, but for the wicked and ungodly.

So you aren't wicked? You are righteous?

 

[Roberth]

Because God promised a child to Abram thought Sarai, but when that child didn't come 11 years later, they decided that God needed help. This was not an act of faith, but an act of unbelief.

Why circumcision (the cutting away of the foreskin)? Because Abram tired to help God keep his promise by having sexual intercourse with Hagar. The cutting away of foreskin symbolized the cutting away of unbelief. It symbolized to have no confidence in the flesh, but rather in the promises of God. That's true circumcision as given to Abram.

The Judaizers changed circumcision, as given to Abraham, from a sign of having no confidence in the flesh, to a sign that boasted in the flesh. This is essentially legalism. But that's not the reason God gave circumcision to Abraham.

Thus we read: That Abraham's circumcison was "a seal (or sign) of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcise...." Rom 4:11

So circumcision, as it pertained to Abraham and his descendants, was a sign of righteousness by faith. In other words the sign represented not having confidence in one's own righteousness, but in the righteousness of God through faith.

 

[Grandpa]

Circumcision actually caused the flesh to be weak for a time. When the flesh is weak you can't have confidence in your own strength.

Genesis 34...