The Sons of God and the Nephilim (Genesis 6:1-4)

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Jul 22, 2014
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Very true! So Job would have had to live either around the time of Abram (post-Babel) or at the very latest, between the end of Genesis and the beginning of Exodus, when the Hebrew people were in exile in Egypt.
I agree that the time of Job fits around this time, too. For a good chronological reading for his story would definitely be after the book of Genesis, for sure. Here is a super duper long chronology dating on the book of Job.

www.ancient-hebrew.org/docs/39_job.pdf

(Please click on the last half the link in order to download the PDF).
 
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Tintin

Guest
I agree that the time of Job fits around this time, too. For a good chronological reading for his story would definitely be after the book of Genesis, for sure. Here is a super duper long chronology dating on the book of Job.

www.ancient-hebrew.org/docs/39_job.pdf

(Please click on the last half the link in order to download the PDF).
Thank you, brother! The link you've provided is very much appreciated.
 
Mar 23, 2014
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When people began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that they were fair; and they took wives for themselves of all that they chose. Then the LORD said, “My spirit shall not abide in mortals forever, for they are flesh; their days shall be one hundred twenty years.” The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown.

GENESIS 6:1-4 (5-8 must also be read for context, so...)

The Lord saw that the wickedness of humankind was great in the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, “I will blot out from the earth the human beings I have created—people together with animals and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found favor in the sight of the Lord.


I've heard/read four views concerning the 'sons of God' in this most mysterious of Bible passages.

The sons of God:
1. Refers specifically to 'fallen' angels.
2. Represents the 'godly' descendants of Seth, one of Adam's sons.
3. Were kings or rulers who were described as 'gods'.
4. Were human beings possessed by demonic fallen angels.

Ever since my childhood, I've held to the first option being true. But in the past few years, I've reconsidered my position. I was possibly more influenced by Greek mythology than what the text truly said. The second option doesn't seem viable in my opinion, nor the other two, although I did consider them for a time. I'm going to propose a fifth option.

Taking into consideration the preceding chapters and the verses following Genesis 6:1-4:

5. a) We know Adam and Eve had many children (both sons and daughters) following the births of Cain, Abel (deceased) and later, Seth. Cain, after killing his brother, Abel, greatly feared God, while Seth followed in His ways. The two patriarchs would've passed their beliefs/attitudes/values onto their children eg. Enoch, Enosh). As numbers increased, some of Adam's children fell away from God (not just Cain's bloodline). It's very likely the different families moved away (Cain before all others) and that they later encountered each other in their travels/trade. During this time, the men of God fell for the ungodly women and married them (remember Sethites weren't all godly and all Cainites weren't evil). Therefore, the sons of God turned from God.

b) 'Nephilim' is an untranslated word meaning 'fallen ones'. This probably means nothing more than those people who followed their own hearts rather than God's. In one word: sinners - people who only did what was right in their own eyes. A pre-Flood example is the proud and violent Lamech (not Noah's father) who was the first to take two wives (Genesis 4:17-24 - Adah and Zilla), not one as God had commanded. Post-Flood examples abound: descendants of Shem, Ham and Japheth (Noah's sons) and their wives, made names for themselves through their tyrannical rules or ferocious military exploits and were recognised as great heroes. As we can see from history, many ancient cultures made religions of violence and war. Finally, possibly 'heroes' and 'warriors of renown' refer to early post-Flood descendants who lived considerably longer lives than their children and could be seen as 'great' for that reason alone.

Thoughts?
Very good point TinTin, the answer is simple, they got some legends from the Greek and Romans, where the Gods have children, and the celestial family have children with beautiful woman they deserve divinity for their beauty, and their children are semi Gods same in this story The nephilim are giants, man of renown heroes. it is just a legend. A Hebrew version of a Hellenic myth.

Otherwise could be the anunakis. but that is another story.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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If this is a worship scenario the presence of God is among his worshipers (See the examples of the offering of sacrifices in Exodus 25:22 "There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.") This then is an earth bound experience. Clearly, Satan is also present. This does not necessitate that this is taking place in heaven. This is unwarranted conjecture.

Job 1:6-7
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
KJV

From verse 7, it becomes implicit in the English and explicit in the Hebrew that they were indeed in heaven, since Satan having come from earth is presently not there.
 
Mar 23, 2014
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Job 1:6-7
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
KJV

From verse 7, it becomes implicit in the English and explicit in the Hebrew that they were indeed in heaven, since Satan having come from earth is presently not there.
That's another Hellenic legend in which God and Satan make a bet.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
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Very good point TinTin, the answer is simple, they got some legends from the Greek and Romans, where the Gods have children, and the celestial family have children with beautiful woman they deserve divinity for their beauty, and their children are semi Gods same in this story The nephilim are giants, man of renown heroes. it is just a legend. A Hebrew version of a Hellenic myth.

Otherwise could be the anunakis. but that is another story.
There is nothing Hellenic or Roman in the OT. The Greeks (and Romans) invariably attribute human failings to their gods while the OT consistently views God as perfect and without failings of any sort.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
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That's another Hellenic legend in which God and Satan make a bet.
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Join DateFebruary 12th, 2015Age75Posts1,259 Rep Power7
[h=2]
Re: The Sons of God and the Nephilim (Genesis 6:1-4)[/h]
Originally Posted by ivanc0

Very good point TinTin, the answer is simple, they got some legends from the Greek and Romans, where the Gods have children, and the celestial family have children with beautiful woman they deserve divinity for their beauty, and their children are semi Gods same in this story The nephilim are giants, man of renown heroes. it is just a legend. A Hebrew version of a Hellenic myth.

Otherwise could be the anunakis. but that is another story.



There is nothing Hellenic or Roman in the OT. The Greeks (and Romans) invariably attribute human failings to their gods while the OT consistently views God as perfect and without failings of any sort.​
 
Mar 23, 2014
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Join DateFebruary 12th, 2015Age75Posts1,259 Rep Power7
Re: The Sons of God and the Nephilim (Genesis 6:1-4)

Originally Posted by ivanc0

Very good point TinTin, the answer is simple, they got some legends from the Greek and Romans, where the Gods have children, and the celestial family have children with beautiful woman they deserve divinity for their beauty, and their children are semi Gods same in this story The nephilim are giants, man of renown heroes. it is just a legend. A Hebrew version of a Hellenic myth.

Otherwise could be the anunakis. but that is another story.



There is nothing Hellenic or Roman in the OT. The Greeks (and Romans) invariably attribute human failings to their gods while the OT consistently views God as perfect and without failings of any sort.​
Hellenic, God that have children, specially he story of Job in which God makes a bet with his son, God is omniscient so he knows the result already, so what is the need to prove his son the poor job will be loyal even if He looses wealth, wife, children, health, and the story ends like the dead ones have not value, just the happiness of Job having the most beautiful daughters on earth as a reward to his perseverance, definitely a Hellenic story.
 
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PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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That's certainly an interesting theory, but I don't think there's any room for such speculation. Cain was Adam and Eve's first child. They would have had him fairly soon after being banished from the garden of Eden (I don't see them delaying on God's command to be fruitful and to multiply. Because of that, I believe Adam and Eve may have been kicked out of the garden rather quickly, by God. Perhaps in a matter of weeks. But that too is speculation. Still, children before the Fall? I don't see the Bible allowing for that interpretation.

I hear what your saying but I think it's important to point out that the Bible deals almost exclusively with how the FALLEN are to be redeemed. It doesn't need to deal with those that don't need to be redeemed. Thus the silence. Also I don't understand how God could have INCREASED Eve's pain in childbirth if she didn't have a point of reference in experiencing childbirth before. But you're right about it all being speculation. A bit fun to talk about though.
 
Apr 22, 2015
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Hellenic, God that have children, specially he story of Job in which God makes a bet with his son, God is omniscient so he knows the result already, so what is the need to prove his son the poor job will be loyal even if He looses wealth, wife, children, health, and the story ends like the dead ones have not value, just the happiness of Job having the most beautiful daughters on earth as a reward to his perseverance, definitely a Hellenic story.
ha ha ha, Do not think in Hellenic legends otherwise you will be banned.!!!!
 

JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
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Hellenic, God that have children, specially he story of Job in which God makes a bet with his son, God is omniscient so he knows the result already, so what is the need to prove his son the poor job will be loyal even if He looses wealth, wife, children, health, and the story ends like the dead ones have not value, just the happiness of Job having the most beautiful daughters on earth as a reward to his perseverance, definitely a Hellenic story.
This would be the first time I've seen anyone try to argue that Job was a "Hellenic story." The book fits better in the genre of ANE wisdom literature. The 'bene elohim' and cosmology presented in Job fit nicely within the framework of ANE cosmology.

The point of the book isn't a guide to Yahweh's relation with the Adversary, the value of a human life, or any other sort of philosophical musings. The point of the book is to address why the righteous suffer. Job, declared in the first sentence to be a righteous man seems to suffer even though he was righteous. In the ANE world, the man with many wives, children, cattle and land was thought to be favored by the gods. So here is Job, a righteous guy who appears to be divinely favored, but he falls on hard times and loses everything. What happened? Was he really unrighteous? Did he do something to lose favor? That's what his friends say. He must have done something wrong, otherwise he wouldn't have lost all the things that indicated he was divinely favored.

But throughout everything, Job maintains that he was indeed righteous, that he had indeed done nothing to deserve all of his misfortune. At several points he even says that if he could have his day in court, he would be vindicated. Job demands to know why God has it in for him and seems out to get him.

When God finally shows up, he tells Job's friends that they were wrong and Job was right. The book is clearly ANE wisdom literature; Job's concern is never really answered. God's speech to Job never addresses why Job suffered. God only indicated that he knew what was going on and didn't seem to feel obligated to tell Job. It's ANE wisdom literature because this is the situation everyone wonders: why do bad things happen to good people? We usually don't know and aren't given clear reasons.

This isn't Greek philosophical speculation and mythical stories about the activity of the gods. God has a very minor role in the book. This story is about a very human reality we all face: why do good people suffer? And it gives the hard answer we're usually stuck with in this life: we don't know/aren't told.

This is typical ANE wisdom literature, not Greek. Not to mention the form of most of the book is in the structure of typical Semitic poetry of the time.

Ref: Tools & Resources - Oxford Biblical Studies Online
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
"Sons of God" is a term that seems to always applied to men. There does not seem to be any place in scripture where this term is ever applied to angels as many suppose with one possible exception.

Job 38:4-7

This passage in the bible is speaking of when God was creating the earth, and mankind was not formed tell after the earth was made. But in this passage it shows the sons of God in heaven shouted for joy, so this can not be man !!!
 
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Tintin

Guest
The Book of Job is wisdom literature, expressed as a poem, played out in history.
 
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Tintin

Guest
I agree that the time of Job fits around this time, too. For a good chronological reading for his story would definitely be after the book of Genesis, for sure. Here is a super duper long chronology dating on the book of Job.

www.ancient-hebrew.org/docs/39_job.pdf

(Please click on the last half the link in order to download the PDF).

Jason, that paper was fascinating and generally well-written. The author did wander off topic towards the end though (I don't think Enoch 1 and the sons of God and Nephilim are relevant to such discussions). Haha! That said, I learned many new things. Having read the paper and thought it all through, I believe there's a very good chance the ages of people need to be halved. How far through the Bible do they need to be halved though? The whole Old Testament? Or less? The implications though - wow! This could mean creation is closer to 4,000 years than 6,000 years, doesn't it? Everything we know about history from before the time of Christ would need to be redated. Or am I overreaching? Let me know. Thanks, brother. :)
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
The Book of Job is wisdom literature, expressed as a poem, played out in history.
So is this your way of trying to deny what is clearly being said in Job 38:4-7 as it is showing in that passage when the earth is being formed? And it shows the sons of God shouting for joy which can not be man because man was not formed before the earth was. The earth was formed first then man was formed !!!


My response was to the saying that all scripture referring to the sons of God refer to man, but this one clearly does not !!!
Second this book shows that our faith will be tested, and as it shows all through the NT if a person stands firm and does not fall away in this testing we will face then they will receive salvation through Christ.....
 
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Tintin

Guest
So is this your way of trying to deny what is clearly being said in Job 38:4-7 as it is showing in that passage when the earth is being formed? And it shows the sons of God shouting for joy which can not be man because man was not formed before the earth was. The earth was formed first then man was formed !!!


My response was to the saying that all scripture referring to the sons of God refer to man, but this one clearly does not !!!
Second this book shows that our faith will be tested, and as it shows all through the NT if a person stands firm and does not fall away in this testing we will face then they will receive salvation through Christ.....
No, no. Please don't jump the gun, brother. My post was in response to Christians or non, who believe Job is nothing more than wisdom literature. Certainly not history. I believe it's history. Besides, isn't that verse in Job, the one place where OldHermit said he couldn't reconcile the idea of 'sons of God' being men? It seems clear to me that this verse is talking about the angels rejoicing at the creation of everything, not long after their own creation by God.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
No, no. Please don't jump the gun, brother. My post was in response to Christians or non, who believe Job is nothing more than wisdom literature. Certainly not history. I believe it's history. Besides, isn't that verse in Job, the one place where OldHermit said he couldn't reconcile the idea of 'sons of God' being men? It seems clear to me that this verse is talking about the angels rejoicing at the creation of everything, not long after their own creation by God.

Well Job is history and also is a picture to show our faith will be tested as well as the bible shows clearly in the NT.....

James 1:3
knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

[FONT=kepler-std !important]1 Peter 1:6-7[/FONT]
In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

[FONT=kepler-std !important]Hebrews 11:17-1

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; it was he to whom it was said, "IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED." He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.

Oldhermit said at that point I was responding to that all scriptures saying sons of God were about man, but I pointed out that this one does not.




[/FONT]
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Jason, that paper was fascinating and generally well-written. The author did wander off topic towards the end though (I don't think Enoch 1 and the sons of God and Nephilim are relevant to such discussions). Haha! That said, I learned many new things. Having read the paper and thought it all through, I believe there's a very good chance the ages of people need to be halved. How far through the Bible do they need to be halved though? The whole Old Testament? Or less? The implications though - wow! This could mean creation is closer to 4,000 years than 6,000 years, doesn't it? Everything we know about history from before the time of Christ would need to be redated. Or am I overreaching? Let me know. Thanks, brother. :)
I think God likes things neat and tidy. So since a thousand yrs is like a day to God, and since He started creation off with a week, and He reeeally likes the number 7, I'm going with almost 6000yrs old, and the final 1000 being the " day of rest" in Jesus' earthly millenial reign.
 

JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
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My post was in response to Christians or non, who believe Job is nothing more than wisdom literature. Certainly not history. I believe it's history. Besides, isn't that verse in Job, the one place where OldHermit said he couldn't reconcile the idea of 'sons of God' being men? It seems clear to me that this verse is talking about the angels rejoicing at the creation of everything, not long after their own creation by God.
In Job 38:7, the "sons of God" parallels the "morning stars." In Job 38, they weren't understood to be men, they were the stars in heaven.

38:7 when the morning stars sang in chorus,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?