The stalemate of translation

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sabaqtani7

Banned
#1
Jan 12, 2013
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#1
I have witnessed, on this forum, a lot of this kind of thing. Where people are afraid to speak about their own understanding of scripture, because of some kind of perceived notion that they will go to hell for it.

But honestly, here is an example of where discernment in this manner is actually beneficial to one's understanding.

In Timothy, there is a verse I just came across, that says 'God was made manifest in the flesh'. People believe it is referring to Jesus, and then say that Jesus is God. And I have no problem with someone interpreting it in that way. That's someone's right to do so.

But personally, that's not what I believe. Simply for this;

If I was to be doing great deeds for God, you could say that God is manifest through me. Or similarly, that God was manifest in the prophets, therefore 'manifest in the flesh' (as they are flesh), whenever they wrote his word down on parchments.

Jesus says in the bible 'why do you call me good? Only One is good'. He makes a distinction between himself and God. Therefore my aforementioned theory on the meaning of 'manifest', is a more accurate translation (in my mind) than 'Jesus is actually the same entity as God'.

That's just the way I see it.

So, i guess what I'm saying, is that, it's really up to the individual to make their decision there.

Some people reading this will agree that Jesus isn't the same entity as God, for reasons like the one above. And some won't.
 
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wwjd_kilden

Guest
#2
#2
Hmmm, but what about: In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God .... the word became flesh and dwelt among us

Why would it say that the word is God if it is not? And how can Jesus forgive sins if He is not God? And how can He be the sacrifice if He is not God?
I simply struggle to understand how people can follow Christ not believing He is God. Shouldn't one then rather only follow God, if Jesus was not God?
 
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sabaqtani7

Banned
#3
Jan 12, 2013
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#3
wwjd_kilden said:
Hmmm, but what about: In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God .... the word became flesh and dwelt among us

why would it say that the word is God if it is not?
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Well, God's word is all we know of God. So, the statement stands that God, to humanity, is His word.

and the word became flesh, can just as easily mean that Jesus is a perfect reflection of that word.

He fulfills every law, and abides by every teaching that God has given us. So, the statement stands 'the word became flesh'.

But it still doesn't mean they need to be the very same entity.

it's like, I could say 'I wrote a book. And I've never shown my face to anyone. They only know me by my book. And my book has lots of rules. And I made a person, who is the only person ever to fulfill all those rules and prophecies I wrote. So, he is that word in the flesh'.
 
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sabaqtani7

Banned
#4
Jan 12, 2013
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#4
To your second question, the sacrifice owed for MY sins (before Jesus) was an animal that is NOT me. So Jesus is the sacrifice for our sins in the same way.

He can forgive sins, because he is a man who never sinned. He can forgive sins because 'the Father handed judgement to the Son'.

And we follow his example. It's still God's word. It's just that Jesus is the example of that word.
 
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Grandpa

Senior Member
#5
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#5
What about when Jesus said "I Am" and everyone fell to their knee??
 
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Grandpa

Senior Member
#6
Jun 24, 2011
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#6
John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am (he), they went backward, and fell to the ground.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#7
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#7
What about the Lord Jesus telling people their sins are forgiven them?

Sins against God...?
 
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sabaqtani7

Banned
#8
Jan 12, 2013
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#8
Grandpa said:
John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am (he), they went backward, and fell to the ground.
Click to expand...
Well, is he saying 'I am God', or 'I am the messiah?'

It is in fact 'I am he', as in 'Jesus of Nazareth', whom they were looking for.
 
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sabaqtani7

Banned
#10
Jan 12, 2013
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#10
There is One God, and One mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ, who gave himself as a ransom for all men, to be testified in due time.

This ends the debate for me.

But feel free to continue. I'm out.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#11
Jun 24, 2011
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#11
John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

whosoever believes in the Son, the Lord Jesus, shall have everlasting life. Through the Son, the Lord Jesus, is Salvation.

What did the OT say about God sharing His Glory?

Pretty amazing.

It would have been awesome to be in His Presence when He said "The Kingdom of God is Upon You". It would have been terrible and wonderful at the same time.

I wonder if I would have kneeled, ran away, laughed, cried, tried to touch Him, try not to be touched... Maybe all of it at once.

 
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sabaqtani7

Banned
#12
Jan 12, 2013
156
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#12
Grandpa said:
John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

whosoever believes in the Son, the Lord Jesus, shall have everlasting life. Through the Son, the Lord Jesus, is Salvation.

What did the OT say about God sharing His Glory?

Pretty amazing.

It would have been awesome to be in His Presence when He said "The Kingdom of God is Upon You". It would have been terrible and wonderful at the same time.

I wonder if I would have kneeled, ran away, laughed, cried, tried to touch Him, try not to be touched... Maybe all of it at once.

Click to expand...
I know I said I'm out. But I have to respond to this.

I love that emotion. That thought 'what if I were there'. How amazing it would have been.

Thanks for that.
 
MichaelAH

MichaelAH

Banned
#13
Jan 4, 2013
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#13
Jesus forgave his Father. Taking all from Him in doing so. Jesus used a marvelous balance of his own free will given to him by his Father, love, and sound reason. With this the beauty of His death is seen even in the darkest forms of interpretation. All children are beautiful. It takes a man to protect those that come from him, and a man to protect those children even in death. "Following" Jesus is not as simple as live as Jesus says in the bible. Following Jesus is doing as he did. So why do some fear they must do things to end up on a cross in order to have truly followed Jesus? Look around you, there are crossroads all around us, we must only bare what we take until we get to where we want to be, then we may live in peace. Or otherwise die in it. The bible is incredibly wonderful, it is a "weapon" used against a evil when evil retreats, it is a "shield" in times of evil attacks. It is armor. "Amour" Love alone does not allow you to grow in life. But a good reason to love can never die even after the flesh is gone. It's only false interpretation in the bible is when it remains a crutch your entire life. You will unknowingly be used by it, but you will receive its rewards. So I believe.
 
MichaelAH

MichaelAH

Banned
#14
Jan 4, 2013
178
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#14
I apologize, you will NOT receive it's rewards if it is always used as a crutch.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#15
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#15
sabaqtani7 said:
Well, is he saying 'I am God', or 'I am the messiah?'

It is in fact 'I am he', as in 'Jesus of Nazareth', whom they were looking for.
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He said I Am. The he was added in for "clarification".

Why would He saying "I AM" cause men to fall down?



 
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sabaqtani7

Banned
#16
Jan 12, 2013
156
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#16
MichaelAH said:
Jesus forgave his Father. Taking all from Him in doing so. Jesus used a marvelous balance of his own free will given to him by his Father, love, and sound reason. With this the beauty of His death is seen even in the darkest forms of interpretation. All children are beautiful. It takes a man to protect those that come from him, and a man to protect those children even in death. "Following" Jesus is not as simple as live as Jesus says in the bible. Following Jesus is doing as he did. So why do some fear they must do things to end up on a cross in order to have truly followed Jesus? Look around you, there are crossroads all around us, we must only bare what we take until we get to where we want to be, then we may live in peace. Or otherwise die in it. The bible is incredibly wonderful, it is a "weapon" used against a evil when evil retreats, it is a "shield" in times of evil attacks. It is armor. "Amour" Love alone does not allow you to grow in life. But a good reason to love can never die even after the flesh is gone. It's only false interpretation in the bible is when it remains a crutch your entire life. You will unknowingly be used by it, but you will receive its rewards. So I believe.
Click to expand...
Thanks.

I especially liked the part about 'a reason to love'.

Mine is this: 'What is the point of NOT loving? There won't be anything averse to it that makes it into heaven anyway. I've learnt, slowly but surely, that there's ALWAYS a good reason to love. The smiles on people's faces, mostly. :)
 
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sabaqtani7

Banned
#17
Jan 12, 2013
156
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#17
Grandpa said:
He said I Am. The he was added in for "clarification".

Why would He saying "I AM" cause men to fall down?



Click to expand...
Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?”

5 “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied.

“I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) 6 When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

7 Again he asked them, “Who is it you want?”

“Jesus of Nazareth,” they said.

8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go.” 9 This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: “I have not lost one of those you gave me.”
 
T

Trax

Guest
#19
#19
sabaqtani7 said:
Well, is he saying 'I am God', or 'I am the messiah?'

It is in fact 'I am he', as in 'Jesus of Nazareth', whom they were looking for.
Click to expand...
The problem you are having is a lack of knowledge of the OT. If you want to know who Jesus
is, you'll have to know the OT and what He claimed. The thing is, Rome controlled the country and
Rome had many gods. Jesus didn't come out and claim He was Jehovah but He DID claim titles that
only belong to Jehovah, making Him God. Jesus didn't say things because it sounded good or
something He just thought of saying. He was telling all, who had ears to hear, who He really is.
When He said He gives living water, that goes back to Jer 2:12-13. When He stopped the storm,
while out on the boat, that goes back to Psalms 89:8-9. When He said "I am the good Shepherd",
He was pointing back to Ez 34. Jesus isn't saying He represents God in the flesh. When He said He
was the good Shepherd, He points to Ez 34 and saying, "here I am doing what I said I was going to
do."

Jesus was the God-man. He called Himself the Son of God and Son of man. There has to be a
difference in the two titles. As the Son of God, He's going to raise the dead. As the Son of man,
He's going to pass judgement on all people. Why do you think He had to be both God and man?
I just told you. God can not judge anyone if He hasn't lived as a man. God knows everything, but
can that be a fair judgement if He's never done it? And how can just a man judge anyone if the man
isn't God? But now, Jesus can do both. He's lived as a man and He has deity. Son of man and
Son of God.
 
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sabaqtani7

Banned
#20
Jan 12, 2013
156
1
0
#20
Trax said:
The problem you are having is a lack of knowledge of the OT. If you want to know who Jesus
is, you'll have to know the OT and what He claimed. The thing is, Rome controlled the country and
Rome had many gods. Jesus didn't come out and claim He was Jehovah but He DID claim titles that
only belong to Jehovah, making Him God. Jesus didn't say things because it sounded good or
something He just thought of saying. He was telling all, who had ears to hear, who He really is.
When He said He gives living water, that goes back to Jer 2:12-13. When He stopped the storm,
while out on the boat, that goes back to Psalms 89:8-9. When He said "I am the good Shepherd",
He was pointing back to Ez 34. Jesus isn't saying He represents God in the flesh. When He said He
was the good Shepherd, He points to Ez 34 and saying, "here I am doing what I said I was going to
do."

Jesus was the God-man. He called Himself the Son of God and Son of man. There has to be a
difference in the two titles. As the Son of God, He's going to raise the dead. As the Son of man,
He's going to pass judgement on all people. Why do you think He had to be both God and man?
I just told you. God can not judge anyone if He hasn't lived as a man. God knows everything, but
can that be a fair judgement if He's never done it? And how can just a man judge anyone if the man
isn't God? But now, Jesus can do both. He's lived as a man and He has deity. Son of man and
Son of God.
Click to expand...
I can interpret those verses differently. Prophecy of the messiah and such, and could go round all day in this circle.

The point I tried to make with the thread, is that my belief is my belief. as yours is yours. And your interpretation differs from mine, as I'm sure someone else will have something other than what me and you believe.

But thanks for your post :)
 
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