Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, or did He?

Ahwatukee · Nov 24, 2015

Roberth,

Your argument is in vain! The scriptures regarding the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah don't leave any room for natural disasters and that because it is stating right in the context that God is the One doing the destroying and with what method he is doing the destroying. Those other scriptures that you are quoting are coming right out and saying that God abandoned them or took away his protection, but it is not saying that in regards to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. You are overriding the provided information regarding the destruction and God's control over it and misapplying formula's from other scriptures.

In short, you are ignoring the information that is their in the context and are replacing it by forcing formula's from other scriptures when the context doesn't require it.

Ahwatukee · Nov 24, 2015

Just to be clear, for all who are reading this thread, here is an example of what Roberth is claiming:

Come on Lot, there is a destructive meteor shower that is going to hit soon. And since God has removed his protection from these people, they will be destroyed, otherwise they would have been protected from it.

Interpreting the scripture in the above manner is to ignore the context regarding the entire event. There is nothing in the context that would lend to the destruction as being from natural causes, but is implied without cause. Suffice to say, if there would have been ten righteous people found there, no destruction would have come either natural or otherwise and that because God was in control of how and when and if.

Roberth · Nov 24, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

Hosea 11:8 "How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I set you like Zeboiim? My heart churns within Me; My sympathy is stirred. (NKJV)

He gave up Ephraim....He handed Israel over to the Roman power....Likewise He did the same to Admah and Zeboiim along with the two other cities, Sodom an Gomorrah. Point is God gave them up....He abandoned them.

Roberth · Nov 24, 2015

If we are going to understand God's justice then we need to see how God treated Christ, who became sin for us. I think we can all agree He took our curse, right?

Notice the following:

[God] will strike the Shepherd (Christ). . . . We esteemed Him stricken,smitten by God (Mark 114:27; Isaiah 53:4).

This verse says God struck Christ.

My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? (Mark 15:34).

This verse states God had forsaken Christ and the powers that were, namely Roman, beat and crucified Christ, not God.

Roberth · Nov 24, 2015

Roberth said:

Luke 22:53 When I (Christ) was with you daily in the temple, you did not try to seize Me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness."

John 19:10 Then Pilate said to Him, "Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?"

11 Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above.

God the Father handed Christ over to the Roman power. He abandoned Him....That's why Christ cried out on the cross, My God, My God, why have you abandoned Me....!

Roberth · Nov 24, 2015

Is 53:4 "We thought of him as stricken, struck down by God and afflicted...." NAB

The human perspective is flawed....We think God is doing it, when in reality we bring down upon ourselves our own demise because of unbelief.

Gal 6:7 Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, 8 because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh...,

Proverbs_Four · Nov 24, 2015

Proverbs_Four said:

23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar. 24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; 25 and he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. - Genesis 19:23-25

prove-all · Nov 24, 2015

Jesus Christ promised, “I will come again” (John 14:3).
but before He returns, Gods anger will be unleased on the earth. why?

Revelation 11:18....and shouldest destroy them [which destroy] the earth.

17And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men,
because they have sinned against the Lord: Zephaniah 1:17.

-because man has sinned againest our Lord, and are destroying [His] earth.

“I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice,
as of a trumpet” (Revelation 1:10).

the time period of God’s wrath is called the day of the Lord
Isaiah 13:6, 9; Joel 1:15; Zephaniah 1:18.

this prophetic “day” of the Lord’s wrath that lasts [A year ] Isaiah 34:8; 61:2; 63:4.

Angela53510 · Nov 24, 2015

Roberth said:

From a geological perspective, it is NOT possible that a volcano erupted in the Jordan Rift Valley which which is a transform plate boundary line. That means the plates are moving past one another, making it seismically active, with earthquakes.

"Two plates sliding past each other forms a transform plate boundary. Natural or human-made structures that cross a transform boundary are offset—split into pieces and carried in opposite directions. Rocks that line the boundary are pulverized as the plates grind along, creating a linear fault valley or undersea canyon. As the plates alternately jam and jump against each other, earthquakes rattle through a wide boundary zone. In contrast to convergent and divergent boundaries, no magma is formed. Thus, crust is cracked and broken at transform margins, but is not created or destroyed."

But in order for it to have volcanic activity, it would have convergent plate boundaries, where one plate is subducting under the other. The Juan de Fuca and Gorda Plates off the Pacific Coast of the US and Canada are a perfect example of a plate subducting under another one, and a chain of andesitic volcanoes being created down the west coast, some of which are dormant and others, like Mt. St. Helens became geologically active in 1981.

"When two plates come together, it is known as a convergent boundary. The impact of the two colliding plates buckles the edge of one or both plates up into a rugged mountain range, and sometimes bends the other down into a deep seafloor trench. A chain of volcanoes often forms parallel to the boundary, to the mountain range, and to the trench. Powerful earthquakes shake a wide area on both sides of the boundary."

(Both quotes from the source below)
What are the different types of plate tectonic boundaries?

Although there are ancient igneous rocks far to the north in Israel in the Golan Heights, or the Mountains of Bashan, the hills of Galilee and south to the Dead Sea are limestone and sandstore which are sedimentary rocks, laid down by the flood. NOT formed under the earth, or on top of the earth like a volcano would do.

So your theory is not based on science, and certaintly not based on Bible content. Theologically, your insistance that man is in charge of his own demise, undermines the sovereignty of God. God was NEAR, he was in CONTROL, and he did DIRECTLY, through his own intervention destroy Sodom and Gomorrah.

Roberth · Nov 24, 2015

Proverbs_Four said:

We must be very careful what we lay at the feet of our Lord. God's wrath is not human wrath. Human wrath is hatred...human wrath is wicked.

God's wrath is His reluctant departure of those who persistently and ultimately reject Him.

Roberth · Nov 24, 2015

Angela53510 said:

Scripture further describes this area anciently: "Now the Valley of Siddim was full of asphalt ['bitumen,' RSV] pits" (Genesis 14:10), suggesting some type of igneous activity occurring within the earth's crust. Today "the shores around the Dead Sea are covered with lava, sulfur, and rock salt. Gases escape from the surface of the water" (World Book Encyclopedia, 1954, Vol. 4, p. 1891). Note the existence in this scenario of all the ingredients necessary to destroy these cities in a great fiery conflagration. Bitumen, asphalt, oil, gas even salt to turn Lot's wife into a pillar. Another name for "brimstone," which Scripture says God "rained" upon these cities is sulfur, a major export of this region today. One need only consider the swiftness with which the ancient city of Pompeii met its doom via volcano to know something similar could have happened to these cities in such a volatile location.

The Dead Sea, in fact, lies in the northernmost extremity of The Great Rift, earth's longest valley, stretching from Syria in the north to Mozambique in the South. According to geologists, this interesting formation resulted from ground movement along a major fault line at some time anciently.Encyclopedia Americana, p. 351, says, "Outpourings of lava formed volcanic plateaus at places along the sides, as well as volcanoes in and near the valley" ("Great Rift Valley." Danbury, Connecticut: Grolier, 1983).

Roberth · Nov 24, 2015

Angela53510 said:

You have crafted your words deceitfully. I never said man was in charge...I simply stated that the unbeliever brings destruction upon himself because he as rejected the Author of life, Christ.

Roberth · Nov 24, 2015

Roberth said:

Apparently not....

Roberth · Nov 24, 2015

Roberth said:

We have already noted that God did not execute Christ, but we still have that perplexing language stating He did. What can it mean?

Principle: God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent.

Since God could have prevented these incidents but chose not to do so, He depicts Himself as the actual instrument or performing agent.

Why?

Roberth · Nov 24, 2015

Roberth said:

To answer this question we must go back before the entrance of sin, not in our world, but in heaven:

Ez 28:14 You are the anointed cherub that covers; and I have set you so: you were on the holy mountain of God; you have walked up and down in the middle of the stones of fire. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you.

[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Did God, in His [/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]omniscience[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], know that when He created Lucifer that he would rebel against God's agape love and become the adversary, Satan? [/FONT]

Answer: Yes!

Then why did He create Lucifer?

Roberth · Nov 24, 2015

Roberth said:

To answer this let me use a popular video. What do you think about this video? Do you like the message or not?

[video=youtube;IYzlVDlE72w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYzlVDlE72w[/video]

I believe the children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be

Everybody's searching for a hero
People need someone to look up to
I never found anyone who fulfilled my needs
A lonely place to be
And so I learned to depend on me

[Chorus:]
I decided long ago, never to walk in anyone's shadows
If I fail, if I succeed
At least I'll live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take away my dignity
Because the greatest love of all
Is happening to me
I found the greatest love of all
Inside of me
The greatest love of all
Is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself
It is the greatest love of all

I believe the children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be

[Chorus]

And if, by chance, that special place
That you've been dreaming of
Leads you to a lonely place
Find your strength in love

GodsGraceOnMe · Nov 24, 2015

My challenges and trials lead me to ask God, why?sometimes! Although I know his power and strength. I feel like some of my struggles could have been avoided. Although the powers of darkness are out lurking to see who they may devour.we have to stay in the word and surrounded by God.

Angela53510 · Nov 25, 2015

Roberth said:

You really do like to dig a pit big, and then make it deeper, don't you?

In fact, bitumen has nothing to do with igneous rock structure. It is in fact, formed of hydrocarbons, or decaying organic matter.

"Bitumen is a mixture of dark, sticky, highly viscous organic liquids composed mainly of aromatic hydrocarbons. It is usually black or dark brown in color."

Bitumen - New World Encyclopedia

Of course, that is what you get from using a source encyclopedia from 1954! That was 61 years ago! The reason I know this as I was born and raised only a few hours from the Alberta tar sands, and just lived there for another 14 years. I assure you, a huge deposit of bitumen, with nary a volcano in sight for literally thousands of miles! Totally different material, different rock structure, material and formation than volcanoes! (And actually not associated with any kind of plate boundary but instead a part of the so-called "Devonian Sea." I prefer to look at that kind of deposition of organic material with the flood - but certainly NOT igneous!!

And yes, there was salt and sulfur. Salt is a result of the deposition of water which had a high level of, well, salt in it!

"The pure sulfur, whose formation is associated with separation of oil into the strata of the Jordan Valley and into hydrogen gas which erupts from the hot springs and various fissures in the ground, was used most effectively by the local inhabitants, among other things, as a means of repelling snakes and at a later stage in the preparation of gunpowder for their weapons.

Sulfur+ is also found in the Dead Sea region between the layers of lissan marl* and the gypsum** formed as a result of the climate. Gypsum (used as a basis for plaster) sometimes attains a height of six meters and more; and has a property of rapid hardening that makes it useful in the construction and casting industries, as well as in sculpture and medicine."

Life from the Dead Sea - Geological Structure

As far as Pompeii is concerned, it is near the boundary of the convergent plate of Italy crashing into the rest of Europe. Lots of subduction, and magma production deep in the earth to form a volcano. Volcanoes do NOT just randomly spring up anywhere. They follow logical geological rules, as God created order on this earth.

As for your quote from the 1983 Encyclopedia, also totally out of date!

"The Great Rift Valley as originally described was thought to extend from Lebanon in the north to Mozambique in the south, where it constitutes one of two distinct physiographic provinces of the East African mountains. It included what we would call today the Lebanese section of the Dead Sea Transform, the Jordan Rift Valley, Red Sea Rift and the East African Rift.[SUP][2][/SUP]Today these rifts and faults are seen as distinct, although connected."

The volcanoes along the Great Rift Valley, do NOT extend to the Jordan Valley and Dead Sea Transform fault. They are located further south, around the Red Sea, and in east Africa, where the rift valley has pulled so far apart it is straining the plate itself. In other words - NO igneous or volcanic rocks in Israel.
"The Dead Sea is formed in a pull-apart basin due to the left-stepping offset between the Wadi Araba and Jordan Valley segments. The part of the basin with a sedimentary fill of more than 2 km is 150 km long and 15–17 km wide in its central part. In the north, the fill reaches its maximum thickness of about 10 km. The sequence includes Miocene fluvial sandstones of the Hazeva Formation overlain by a sequence of Late Miocene to early Pliocene evaporites, mainly halite, the Sedom Formation, and a lacustrine to fluvial sequence of Pliocene to recent age.[SUP][12]"[/SUP]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Transform

"Siddim is thought to be located on the southern end of the Dead Sea where modern bitumen deposits have been found in respect to the tar pits (asphalt, slime pits) mentioned in Genesis 14:10. This scripture indicates that the valley was filled with many of these pits that the armies of Sodom and Gomorrah fell into during their retreat from Mesopotamian forces. It has been suggested by theologians that the destruction of the cities of the Jordan Plain by divine fire and brimstone may have caused Siddim to become a salt sea, what is now the Dead Sea."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_of_Siddim

My thought is you need to stay away from science, since you have absolutely no background or understanding of the processes involved in geology, to say the least. Then again, your obvious ignorance of theology also disqualifies you from these extravagent and exegetically untenable options you keep presenting, too!

PS. I am a young earth creationist, and I do not believe in long earth ages! However, there are some things which the geologists do have right, including the different kinds of rocks, and plate boundaries, and how and where volancoes are found!

Also just a brief note on the elements listed above of sulfur, marl and gypsum, all SEDIMENTARY rocks, or found in association with sedimentary rocks, organic material and/or water deposition.

+ When SO[SUB]4[/SUB][SUP]2−[/SUP] is assimilated by organisms, it is reduced and converted to organic sulfur, which is an essential component of proteins. However, the biosphere does not act as a major sink for sulfur, instead the majority of sulfur is found in seawater or sedimentary rocks especially pyrite rich shales and evaporite rocks (anhydrite and baryte). The amount of sulfate in the oceans is controlled by three major processes:[SUP][3][/SUP]1. input from rivers2. sulfate reduction and sulfide reoxidation on continental shelves and slopes3. burial of anhydrite and pyrite in the oceanic crust.

* Marl is a sedimentary rock made of clay and limestone, which belongs to the family of pelitic rocks (clays <0.02 mm, the fine particles in water sales) and a carbonate is a variety of mudstone."

**Gypsum is found in nature in mineral and rock form. It is a very soft mineral and it can form very pretty, and sometimes extremely large colored crystals. As a rock, gypsum is a sedimentary rock, typically found in thick beds or layers."

NarrowRoadDisciple · Nov 25, 2015

Roberth said:

No, because learning to love yourself is not the greatest love of all. Love of self is idolatry and places you higher than God. It also has humanistic leanings pointing to mankind being gods, when we know for a fact that God hates this type of belief as it goes against the very order He has set forth and reduces His sovereignty in the eyes of those that follow it.

Roberth, you are quoting things and misapplying scripture. God did indeed firsthand destroy, Sodom, Gomorrah, and the neighboring cities as per scripture. Let's not twist things and look at what the scripture clearly states.

Did they cause their own destruction? Yes. As the cup of iniquity fills up with no repentance, when that last drops fills up the cup, judgment will come down from God. This is the very dynamic that has existed from Day 1 even until today. Mankind has their own choice to make. The inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah chose to do evil in the sight of the Lord and as a result, God directly rained down fire and brimstone to destroy them.

God did not destroy these cities until Lot and his family had left because God saves the remnant righteous out of judgment. He never has His righteous experience wrath, another dynamic that continues until today.

posthuman · Nov 25, 2015

what Robert is trying to say is that if he drops a rock on a bug,
gravity is responsible for the death of the bug, not Robert.

Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, or did He?

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