This is the Dividing Line on BDF

[PeterJens]

I am sorry Fran if you have comprehension difficulties or cannot understand English....no one has said what you imply....it seems you cannot get past your narrow vision to understand that salvation is by faith alone and any work or fruit produced is the result of the faith and salvation one already possesses....how difficult is that for you to understand....now....post one place where any of us have said we do nothing after salvation.....

SEE....the problem...you cannot find one place where we have said that......which makes your post above what exactly?

The above sentiments require some observations.
1. personal putdowns and attack "comprehension difficulties" "understand english"
2. accusation of ignorance "no one has"
3. accusation of narrow vision
4. accusation of difficulty in understanding
5. accusation of lying

It appears dc by not declaring very much and then being aggressive and dismissive
he feels he has made his point.

But he shows his hand in his behaviour. Why does he fight so hard if choice in not involved,
and actions do not speak louder than words?

He is working so hard to prove he really does have faith, before the impossible cloud of unbelief
swamps him, lol. And who are his enemies? The ghosts of his past from bible college, lol.

I think very often it is the ghosts of their pasts they fight, because Jesus was always
focused on how people treated one another and encouraged everyone to walk in love.

camp "grace" seem to be camp judgementalism, and camp "follow" appears to be walk in love.

But then if you believe all you need to have is the right "vision", at some point in your life,
I suppose it makes you jumpy against the enemy who have the wrong "vision".

They are always into the right "lens". But most people who need "lens's" have a vision
problem, sort that out and they will see clearly, lol.

 

[FranC]

Actually it covers those who claim to know and then ADD their works in the name of JESUS as the means of entry.....

Really?
I do wonder which bible school you went to.

Let's go through the verses...



Matthew 7:13-23 New International Version (NIV)

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

True and False Prophets

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

True and False Disciples

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’

23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


verse 13
The way is broad. Many look for shortcuts to get to God. But there aren't any. We have to get to God by God's way.
Many seek easy ways to get to God. There are none, as shown by the last statement of jesus when He banishes some who thought they were doing His works.

verse 14
The way to God is narrow. We shouldn't listen to false Teachers who make every attempt to make it seem simple. The way if sometimes difficult and we need to pay attention to keep on the narrow road at all times.

verse 15
It's not important what "preachers" say but what they do. They make believe they are nice, but inside they are not. They are wolves in sheep's clothing and will ruin you if you let them.

Dont' look for charisma... Look for GOOD CHARACTER.


verse 16
And who do we know which are the good preachers? By their fruit. Grapes are not gathered in thorn bushes nor figs from thistles. Those who say to do good works achieve good works, those who say they're not important will NOT achieve good works.


verse 17
Good trees produce good fruit.
Bad trees produce bad fruit.
HOW ARE THE FRUIT OF THE ONE YOU ARE FOLLOWING??


verse 18
a good tree cannot produce bad fruit and a bad tree cannot produce GOOD fruit.


verse 19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is CUT DOWN and thrown into the FIRE. Self-explanatory. It IS OF NO USE to the Kingdom of God.


verse 20
You will now Teachers by their fruit.


verse 21
Not everyone who says MASTER, MASTER will get a person into heaven, BUT HE WHO DOES THE WILL OFTHE FATHER.
That's the one who OBEYS God and obeys Jesus words when He preached on earth. God ALWAYS demanded obedience and He still does !


verse 22
Many will go up to Jesus telling Him they prophesied in His namem, or cast out a Demon, but Jesus will know they were not sincere and did this only to please themselves, and He will declare that he never knew them. Jesus NEVER SAID that it was only our belief in Him that would save us, so we have to exegete this passage with that in mind. This passage does not refer to thsoe who were not saved. Jesus NEVER expressed salvation in this way...

IF you believe He did, please show this biblically...

verse 23
Jesus will not know them, because they did not do good works,
the practiced LAWLESSNESS, as some versions say, or EVIL DOING as the NIV says.



So you see Dcon, Jesus is not speaking about those who are adding their works...

HE IS DEMANDING THAT THEY DO WORKS.

If you don't agree,...

please exegete these verses.
Thanks.

 

[FranC]

Yes, I agree that continuing belief and growing belief is necessary. That is what abiding means. Israel believed enough to step out under a huge towering wall of water, but then He became displeased over their subsequent unbelief.

The man seems to think it is important for us to understand WHO God later became displeased with and did not let enter His rest. He goes to great pains to say: WHO did God nevertheless become displeased with and refuse entrance in to His rest? Wasn't it...THOSE HE HAD SAVED? So pay attention and take care that you also, having been saved, do not allow your heart to become hard and unbelieving as their hearts did.

Amen.

Some here do SEE THE LIGHT!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You hate Catholics?

yes. It is apparent.

Not very Christianly of you.

Ah, I should have known you would take what I said and twist it to try to make me look bad. Don't you know when you do things like this it reflects on you, Not the one your trying to attack?

I love catholics, I have many catholic friends, I dated a catholic for years. And as I said earlier, I have many ex catholics in my church,

I love them all the same, as God demands.

Now the church, that is a different story.

See. This is another work you refuse to do...

lol.. What works do I refuse to Do Fran, Please, I can't wait to hear this.. You already LIED about my love for catholic people so what other LIES do you have in stor for us today?

There must be many if you need to rest your conscience by convincing yourself that you need do nothing

Another lie, Wow they just keep coming, How can you live with yourself preaching against sin, while sinning right out in the open. Shame Shame on you.

I never said I need to do nothing, THATS YOUR LIE.

and not only THAT

but that DOING GOOD WORKS is actually A BAD THING.

Another lie, wow 4 in one post. Is that a record? Can someone check to see if their is a record kept of how many lies a person can do in one post I think Fran may be a winner here.

Like I said How can you preach truth, If you do not have any truth?

and finally, What do you add to the cross? Any work you claim is REQUIRED to maintain your salvation,

It's trying to ADD TO THE CROSS.
What does that mean, anyway?

WHAT am I adding to the cross?[/QUOTE]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh.

I thought EVERYONE HERE knows how to become a child of God.

You mean, YOU have a doubt????

I thought that was Christianity 101 and we were a ways Beyond that...
My bad.

lol, well as usual you thought wrong

You do not know how to become a chid of God. your trying to earn your status, not be born again BY god via the cross.

Christianity 101, you failed.

 

[kaylagrl]

​Another barn burner I see....smh

 

[PeterJens]

But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

The gate is hard to find and hard to enter. The path does not allow lots of things
along it and is very particular. And these two things lead to life, not are life itself.

Now if knowing Jesus is simple, just acceptance and a request, "you are Jesus"
I wonder in this model how you could miss the gate and the path, as it sounds
like neither exist. It sounds more like heaven is a pool party, just jump in and
have a good time.

I come from a show culture and I totally reject it. Show is nothing, truth and
speaking from the heart is everything.

I think these "visionaries" are just showing their faith and hoping God counts them
in even though their consciences and hearts have already thrown them out.

Only a nutcase would take their testimony of value. A holy, righteous God, who
is pure and holy will show himself through sinning bound believers who show no
victory or desire to leave the world or any of its aspirations. Only the religious
hypocrites would buy into this level failure and contradiction....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OOOPS.

Silly me.

I just realized you've once again stated that I'm not born again,
only making believe on the outside and am lost on the inside,

and so once again you're sending me to you know where.

WHEN will you ever stop this?
I guess NEVER, until I agree with you.

And since you're not correct, you'll be sending me to that place many more times.

This is also very unchristianly of you, BTW.

As I have said, We have different gospels. Unless you believe in unversalism, one of us is not going to make it, Unless we have both truly repented of our dead works, and gave it all to the cross.

So in reality, We condemn each other. Whether you want to believe it or not is another story.

TThere is one gospel. anyone who teaches another is to be anathemad.

We teach different gospels.. Plain and simple, even you would agree here..

so once again, I can not judge you, But I can judge your gospel.. You want to take that as judging you, Thats on you. Not me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A time (of darkness) is going to come when no man can work

Then what will we do ?

Work, because he who is in us is greater than that darkness.

 

[FranC]

Exactly. That's why the OP was about the real line. The line between light and dark. And why we need to check it out within ourselves first. We still have dark in us. We need to head for the light.

(Scary thought. Are we agreeing? )

Are YOU headed there?
Mathew 7:1

Why don't you just redirect your thread instead of complaining to ME??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Exactly. That's why the OP was about the real line. The line between light and dark. And why we need to check it out within ourselves first. We still have dark in us. We need to head for the light.

(Scary thought. Are we agreeing? )

Amen, we are not supposed to head to the light (God) but we are supposed to let his light reflect off us so the world can see it.

 

[FranC]

I don't think he's saying that - to do nothing.
I think he's concerned about people who may be stuck in thinking they're doing good things because of what they're doing outwardly when inwardly, there's rot. That's what phariseeism is. (I don't think that's you though.)

It's not up to Grace to decide what's on the inside.

Anyway, he never says this.

He says that works are not necessary and that we're saved only by faith.
I'm saying we're saved by faith...
and KEPT SAVED by works..
which is what the bible teaches.

We are to ADHERE to the sanctification process till the end of our lives to be saved until the end.
I didn't make this up, every mainline Church knows this.

If Grace agrees, he should just agree and not write pages negating what I say.

This means HE DOES NOT AGREE that works ARE NECESSARY.
Which contradicts what Jesus said.
Mathew 5:17

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Dcon,

you have called ME
a born again Christian for the past 40 years
and one that has taught her faith to both children and adults

a lost person
going to hell
a cake taker
a worker for

This because I state that we are TO DO GOOD WORKS.

So, if you scold me for saying that we are to do good works,

it must mean that you believe we are not to do good works!

You have stated many times that OUR WORKS DO NOT SAVE US OR KEEP US SAVED.

Now...
You're 100% right that our works do not save us

BUT

you're 100% wrong that our good works do not KEEP US SAVED.

They most certainly do.

Jesus did not request that we work and behave well, HE DEMANDED IT.

GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.

Context Context.

I know that must be hard for you, But here you go slandering a person again, based on CONTEXT.

DC teaches we do good works because it is the right thing to do to honor our savior, and in our best interest

You teach we do good works to get/keep/maintain (whatever they all mean the same) salvation.

HUGE difference..

 

[miknik5]

Work, because he who is in us is greater than that darkness.

yes I know

but some won't understand

not by power or by might
but when evil has full reign some will forget and do what should not be done

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Really?
I do wonder which bible school you went to.

Let's go through the verses...



Matthew 7:13-23 New International Version (NIV)

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

True and False Prophets

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

True and False Disciples

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’

23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


verse 13
The way is broad. Many look for shortcuts to get to God. But there aren't any. We have to get to God by God's way.
Many seek easy ways to get to God. There are none, as shown by the last statement of jesus when He banishes some who thought they were doing His works.

verse 14
The way to God is narrow. We shouldn't listen to false Teachers who make every attempt to make it seem simple. The way if sometimes difficult and we need to pay attention to keep on the narrow road at all times.

verse 15
It's not important what "preachers" say but what they do. They make believe they are nice, but inside they are not. They are wolves in sheep's clothing and will ruin you if you let them.

Dont' look for charisma... Look for GOOD CHARACTER.


verse 16
And who do we know which are the good preachers? By their fruit. Grapes are not gathered in thorn bushes nor figs from thistles. Those who say to do good works achieve good works, those who say they're not important will NOT achieve good works.


verse 17
Good trees produce good fruit.
Bad trees produce bad fruit.
HOW ARE THE FRUIT OF THE ONE YOU ARE FOLLOWING??


verse 18
a good tree cannot produce bad fruit and a bad tree cannot produce GOOD fruit.


verse 19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is CUT DOWN and thrown into the FIRE. Self-explanatory. It IS OF NO USE to the Kingdom of God.


verse 20
You will now Teachers by their fruit.


verse 21
Not everyone who says MASTER, MASTER will get a person into heaven, BUT HE WHO DOES THE WILL OFTHE FATHER.
That's the one who OBEYS God and obeys Jesus words when He preached on earth. God ALWAYS demanded obedience and He still does !


verse 22
Many will go up to Jesus telling Him they prophesied in His namem, or cast out a Demon, but Jesus will know they were not sincere and did this only to please themselves, and He will declare that he never knew them. Jesus NEVER SAID that it was only our belief in Him that would save us, so we have to exegete this passage with that in mind. This passage does not refer to thsoe who were not saved. Jesus NEVER expressed salvation in this way...

IF you believe He did, please show this biblically...

verse 23
Jesus will not know them, because they did not do good works,
the practiced LAWLESSNESS, as some versions say, or EVIL DOING as the NIV says.



So you see Dcon, Jesus is not speaking about those who are adding their works...

HE IS DEMANDING THAT THEY DO WORKS.

If you don't agree,...

please exegete these verses.
Thanks.

Lets talk about the narrow gate.

99.9 percent of the worlds religions (including many of those who call themselves christian) believe the way to God is through good works.

that leave 0.1 percent of the world which believes in salvation by faith alone based on the work of Christ alone.

So who is entering the narrow gate?

You do not need to exegete all verses, Just look at them and look at reality

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yes I know

but some won't understand

not by power or by might
but when evil has full reign some will forget and do what should not be done

don;t worry, Gods children will persevere.. Because they are children of the living God, not children of a dead God.

 

[Stephen63]

The above sentiments require some observations.
1. personal putdowns and attack "comprehension difficulties" "understand english"
2. accusation of ignorance "no one has"
3. accusation of narrow vision
4. accusation of difficulty in understanding
5. accusation of lying

It appears dc by not declaring very much and then being aggressive and dismissive
he feels he has made his point.

But he shows his hand in his behaviour. Why does he fight so hard if choice in not involved,
and actions do not speak louder than words?

He is working so hard to prove he really does have faith, before the impossible cloud of unbelief
swamps him, lol. And who are his enemies? The ghosts of his past from bible college, lol.

I think very often it is the ghosts of their pasts they fight, because Jesus was always
focused on how people treated one another and encouraged everyone to walk in love.

I think you're right about one thing..... he's fighting something in his past.

But I don't think it's the ghosts of bible college..... I think it's the ghosts of the last church he pastored.

 

[FranC]

BTW, it's not 10% you don't get along with. You're very good at reaching much higher numbers than that. Off to Ignore Land for you.

I meet such nice people here...

 

[tourist]

It's not up to Grace to decide what's on the inside.

Anyway, he never says this.

He says that works are not necessary and that we're saved only by faith.
I'm saying we're saved by faith...
and KEPT SAVED by works..
which is what the bible teaches.

We are to ADHERE to the sanctification process till the end of our lives to be saved until the end.
I didn't make this up, every mainline Church knows this.

If Grace agrees, he should just agree and not write pages negating what I say.

This means HE DOES NOT AGREE that works ARE NECESSARY.
Which contradicts what Jesus said.
Mathew 5:17

From my limited understanding of having spent over 50 years of bible study and contemplation I would say that any works performed for God and through the grace of God are a manifestation of the amount of faith the one possesses when one is born again by confession and forgiveness of sin by the shed blood of Jesus dying on the cross, inviting the Holy Spirit to live in our hearts, and to guide us in performing the works that our Heavenly Father has prepared for us beforehand.


James 2:14-26
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

 

[FranC]

No one is to judge the hidden intent and motive and agenda of another's heart


HE'll do that

AMEN !!


..............