This is the Dividing Line on BDF

[Desertsrose]

The first Passover is a picture in a lower visible sign of HOD's WORK...HIS CALL...HIS taking out from
"Egypt"(the sons of "pharaoh") and bringing into "Israel" (the sons of GOD)


out of "Egypt" HE called..HIS SON

Hi Miknik,

I think we'll have to disagree.

They were never sons of pharaoh. They were already a chosen people of God through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They were sons of slavery not pharaoh.

The Passover was an example of the Israelites being saved - the lamb was slain, they placed the blood on the lintels and doorposts. God brought them out of slavery, baptized them through the Red Sea and had them wander in the wilderness and then brought them into the promised land. It's a beautiful shadow of what our Lord has done spiritually.

The future Spiritual application however, never negates the natural.

 

[Meggido]

Hi Miknik,

Thanks for your comments. I'd have to disagree though. The Jews entered into their promised land. But not the originals that came out of Egypt. Only Joshua and Caleb went into the promises land. God fought for them, He battled with them and told them to take the land and drive out their enemies.

There is a spiritual application today, but it doesn't take away from what God did for Israel as a nation and as a people. The types and shadows never negate the truths that God instituted among the Israelites.

What I get from all this is that the many walk in unbelief while the few are faithful and enter into God's rest. Even though Moses didn't get to go into the promised land, because of sin, it didn't mean that he isn't going to be in heaven with us. This is where parables or types and shadows can break down. We can't always take it where we want it to go.

Those who were faithful in the wilderness didn't all get to go in to the promised land. Aaron and Miriam didn't go into the promised land either, so I'm sure there were others who didn't go in that were of the faithful remnant.

spot on 100% correct...

As you stated, the first generation , including Moses, Aaron and Miriam, died in the physical wilderness as God said they would...which means they did not enter into the physical promised land either...also as you stated only Joshua and Caleb entered physically in....

If we want to apply allegory everything to death as some posters here do, then the absolute allegory of truth is, that many are delivered, but many will die in their unbelief, even after being with Christ and seeing his miracles of their deliverance......

Moses, Aaron and Miriam made paradise due to their faith....

 

[BillG]

We're called to obey.........that's what we are.....we're called to obey Jesus Christ.

Why does everyone get all riled up about obedience? or works?

In all the reading I've done in the threads about Faith and Works, no one has every said that they're saved by works. They all have agreed that we're saved by God's grace through faith because of the voluntary death of Jesus who died and atoned for our sins. Everyone agrees that this is how we're saved.

So if you all agree that salvation is through Christ and you all say that works will follow those who believe, where is the disagreement?

1 Peter 1:1, 2

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

To be honest I think the problem is, well my thoughts are along the following.
We all agree that faith saves and not works.

The problem is we then define what works are and what obedience is.
Now that can cause a problem.

Some seem to say that it's 100% all the time (or may come accross like that)
This can then lead to works based salvation and then faith can be set aside.

Those who say that works don't save are assumed to be saying just have faith and that saves.
Yet they say if we start with 1% and only get to 5% that's greasy grace.

One side assumes the other doesn't care about sin and the other try's to pay for their sin.

The problem is that either side draw a line as such and that's what they stick with.

Now I have to be honest here, I am faith saves through which works and obedience follows.

The thing I struggle with given my experiences (which I have shared) it is easy to write someone off if they don't seem to be doing the right things, works and obedience. The issue for me is that is looking at the outward signs without regard to the heart.

I stopped going to church for 15 years. But I never lost faith in Jesus. In fact I led a very successful youth group ministry.
I won't go into the details about why I stopped going other than to say I was a very damaged person.
My counselling when people talked to me was "Bible says now go do"
They didn't even ask why I was struggling.

People can't be obedient all the time and fruit in people grows at different rates.

We should never be quick to write those off who go missing in action or don't seem to grow as we expect neither should we write off those who we think are working for their salvation.

Its all about grace on both sides.

Its grace that sets us free and helps us to walk with each other and build each other up.

Just my simple thoughts.

We all need to realise that Jesus is greater than it all and he has in fact asked us to be like him.
Thats why he went back to the Father so the Holy Spirit would come to us.

 

[Meggido]

DesertRose,

Moses was a true picture of Christ, though imperfect because he allowed his human emotions (emotions other than love) to interfere with his obedience to GOD, which is why, in anger and frustration at the people's complaints , he allowed his flesh to get in the way

Moses lost the right to enter into the promised land and saw it from afar

But Joshua, who by battling was able to obtain and enter by force into that physical land in the present earthly moment, is not really the one who had obtained the TRUE PROMISE which Moses saw from afar

it isn't a physical rest in a physical Israel
It's a spiritual test in the TRUE ISRAEL of GOD who entered in for us

not everything in the Bible is an allegory or type or shadow...

If what you say about Joshua is true, then your version of the truth makes God a liar....best read Joshua and see for yourself...he was commanded by God to go possess the land...

This is the epidemic in the church today....benefit based theology is building up little consumer of God and expect he does all the work....and it is his responsibility to give you the promise...

The Book of Joshua is the greatest prophetic rebuke to the easy believing, skim milk drinking, diet bread stick applying, sugar coated 3 point motivational talking, greasy grace nugget eating church of today.

Joshua received the promise as did Caleb because of their belief ,faith and obedience to take back what the enemy stole and knowing that Jehovah Saboath was leading the charge...they did not sit passively by and wait for God to give it to them as you so fondly proclaim.....2 tribes show what being passive does for your inheritance....

 

[Meggido]

We're called to obey.........that's what we are.....we're called to obey Jesus Christ.

Why does everyone get all riled up about obedience? or works?

In all the reading I've done in the threads about Faith and Works, no one has every said that they're saved by works. They all have agreed that we're saved by God's grace through faith because of the voluntary death of Jesus who died and atoned for our sins. Everyone agrees that this is how we're saved.

So if you all agree that salvation is through Christ and you all say that works will follow those who believe, where is the disagreement?

1 Peter 1:1, 2

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

because the current diet of benefits based theology places the sole responsibility for growing up spiritually on God and it really does not matter if you bear fruit or not....

 

[Desertsrose]

Saying one has to work to KEEP saved, and saying one has to work to earn salvation are the same thing.

there is one, I am sure if I look, I can find many more..

Thanks EG for the example.

Okay, so here is what I do in a situation like this. Does this person say we must be saved by grace through faith? Okay if the answer is yes, and in this case Fran did say we must be saved by grace through faith, then we need to understand what she's saying because she knows we aren't saved by works, but by faith.

Maybe she's read this scripture.
Philippians 2:12, 13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The same person, Paul, wrote we're saved by grace through faith and that we are to work out our salvation. So by God's grace we're saved through faith and then the works that follow prove that our faith is real. Works are an evidence of the new life within us.

So when Fran states that we must work, this is my first thought to what she's probably meaning by that because she believes she's saved by grace through faith.

Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments. Same thing. True faith obeys.

We see a mixed bag of individuals within the church. Some evil, some righteous; some tares, some wheat; some are goats, others are sheep. So what distinguishes the true and faithful from the false and unbelieving? Obedience does.

So although works don't determine salvation, they reveal that God is truly working in us which is the reason we obey the Lord. If He's in us we show proof that we're His by our obedience.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

because the current diet of benefits based theology places the sole responsibility for growing up spiritually on God and it really does not matter if you bear fruit or not....

Who teaches this stuff.. You can not grow without bearing fruit, you just remain stagnant, I have been to many a church, listened to teachers on TV read many books, even listen to people come and go in here, And I have never heard this "benefits based theology" as you put it..

would be good ot know who they are, so I can study them more, I like to study those who believe different so we can know them and not make the same mistake..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thanks EG for the example.

Okay, so here is what I do in a situation like this. Does this person say we must be saved by grace through faith? Okay if the answer is yes, and in this case Fran did say we must be saved by grace through faith, then we need to understand what she's saying because she knows we aren't saved by works, but by faith.

Maybe she's read this scripture.
Philippians 2:12, 13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The same person, Paul, wrote we're saved by grace through faith and that we are to work out our salvation. So by God's grace we're saved through faith and then the works that follow prove that our faith is real. Works are an evidence of the new life within us.

So when Fran states that we must work, this is my first thought to what she's probably meaning by that because she believes she's saved by grace through faith.

Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments. Same thing. True faith obeys.

We see a mixed bag of individuals within the church. Some evil, some righteous; some tares, some wheat; some are goats, others are sheep. So what distinguishes the true and faithful from the false and unbelieving? Obedience does.

So although works don't determine salvation, they reveal that God is truly working in us which is the reason we obey the Lord. If He's in us we show proof that we're His by our obedience.

Here is the point,

You should not believe everything everyone says, Alot of people say stuff, but they really do not mean it, either because they have said it for so long they a actually believe they do believe it, or they have been spoon fed it from some paster for so long, they again, believe it,

number two, When you claim you believe we are saved by faith not works, then follow that up by saying we must maintain our salvation by works, They you really are not teaching nor do you really believe you are saved by faith not works.

Paul was not joking when he called a group of people fools because they believed they were saved by grace through faith, then attempted to perfect, or keep that salvation, by works.

 

[Desertsrose]

To be honest I think the problem is, well my thoughts are along the following.
We all agree that faith saves and not works.

The problem is we then define what works are and what obedience is.
Now that can cause a problem.

Some seem to say that it's 100% all the time (or may come accross like that)
This can then lead to works based salvation and then faith can be set aside.

Those who say that works don't save are assumed to be saying just have faith and that saves.
Yet they say if we start with 1% and only get to 5% that's greasy grace.

One side assumes the other doesn't care about sin and the other try's to pay for their sin.

The problem is that either side draw a line as such and that's what they stick with.

Now I have to be honest here, I am faith saves through which works and obedience follows.

The thing I struggle with given my experiences (which I have shared) it is easy to write someone off if they don't seem to be doing the right things, works and obedience. The issue for me is that is looking at the outward signs without regard to the heart.

I stopped going to church for 15 years. But I never lost faith in Jesus. In fact I led a very successful youth group ministry.
I won't go into the details about why I stopped going other than to say I was a very damaged person.
My counselling when people talked to me was "Bible says now go do"
They didn't even ask why I was struggling.

People can't be obedient all the time and fruit in people grows at different rates.

We should never be quick to write those off who go missing in action or don't seem to grow as we expect neither should we write off those who we think are working for their salvation.

Its all about grace on both sides.

Its grace that sets us free and helps us to walk with each other and build each other up.

Just my simple thoughts.

We all need to realise that Jesus is greater than it all and he has in fact asked us to be like him.
Thats why he went back to the Father so the Holy Spirit would come to us.

Thanks for the explanation Bill. I guess I got lost in the forest and didn't see the trees.

So you're saying that some are going from the - now that your saved to the - now you have to be 100% perfect? I'll look closer at the threads from now on because I guess I missed anyone saying that. I'm not questioning what you're saying, I believe you and it's me missing certain posts. I don't read through each and every post so that's probably why I was confused over all the arguing.

I'm sorry to hear about your negative experience. We need to realize that people are people and we mess up. Isn't it wonderful that God who is full of love and compassion, picks us up when we fall, brushes us off and encourages us and empower us to keep on keeping on.

So it sounds like you're saying some miss the part about the sanctification process. Who could stand before God ever without His mercy and grace. Even if we've attained to the perfect (mature) man, we stand because of His grace working through us, we stand because of His kindness towards us........He loves us into the walk of righteousness.

Thanks for helping me to sort out what's really going on in the threads. It just wasn't making sense to me. But I will say that on the 'focus on grace' side, they also had a error I've read a couple of times. Not in this thread, but in others. Some have said you can be saved for years and never have a work and you can still make it to heaven. That is just as much an error as the other error of being 100% sinless.

 

[Meggido]

No one is getting riled up about works, We are getting riled up about those who teach we must work to EARN salvation.

CONTEXT is a must. or we will keep saying things which are not true, and get so hardened we believe the lies we say are actually truth.

this is where these threads go south.... you guys are the only ones that continue to bring up salvation....This happens to me all the time...

A few examples,
I say: making disciples is producing fruit...
OSAS guys: Fruit is not evidence of salvation Mr. fruit inspector so lay off...

I say: Overcoming SIN is available today through renewing your mind to the word of God.
OSAS guys: take your sinless perfection doctrine and works based salvation away from here...

I say: Abiding and covenant relationship with Father is a form of obedience
OSAS guys: stop talking works, works do not mean relationship

I say: surrender and dying to self is part of being in relationship with Father
OSAS guys: total surrender is impossible, because we don't know what we should surrender, and nobody really can crucify their flesh, its a constant war of 2 natures, so stop spreading works based salvation ideas...


You guys beat the drums on salvation, but when is the conversation going to change about whats next?

What does the walk look like after salvation/conversion?

 

[miknik5]

not everything in the Bible is an allegory or type or shadow...

If what you say about Joshua is true, then your version of the truth makes God a liar....best read Joshua and see for yourself...he was commanded by God to go possess the land...

This is the epidemic in the church today....benefit based theology is building up little consumer of God and expect he does all the work....and it is his responsibility to give you the promise...

The Book of Joshua is the greatest prophetic rebuke to the easy believing, skim milk drinking, diet bread stick applying, sugar coated 3 point motivational talking, greasy grace nugget eating church of today.

Joshua received the promise as did Caleb because of their belief ,faith and obedience to take back what the enemy stole and knowing that Jehovah Saboath was leading the charge...they did not sit passively by and wait for God to give it to them as you so fondly proclaim.....2 tribes show what being passive does for your inheritance....

EVERYTHING IN THE WORD OF GOD IS THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS

 

[BillG]

Thanks for the explanation Bill. I guess I got lost in the forest and didn't see the trees.

So you're saying that some are going from the - now that your saved to the - now you have to be 100% perfect? I'll look closer at the threads from now on because I guess I missed anyone saying that. I'm not questioning what you're saying, I believe you and it's me missing certain posts. I don't read through each and every post so that's probably why I was confused over all the arguing.

I'm sorry to hear about your negative experience. We need to realize that people are people and we mess up. Isn't it wonderful that God who is full of love and compassion, picks us up when we fall, brushes us off and encourages us and empower us to keep on keeping on.

So it sounds like you're saying some miss the part about the sanctification process. Who could stand before God ever without His mercy and grace. Even if we've attained to the perfect (mature) man, we stand because of His grace working through us, we stand because of His kindness towards us........He loves us into the walk of righteousness.

Thanks for helping me to sort out what's really going on in the threads. It just wasn't making sense to me. But I will say that on the 'focus on grace' side, they also had a error I've read a couple of times. Not in this thread, but in others. Some have said you can be saved for years and never have a work and you can still make it to heaven. That is just as much an error as the other error of being 100% sinless.

Your post that I responded to was in fact correct and I really had no issue with it.
I think what I am trying to say is that we can perceive what another is saying and believe when in fact they may not be saying that, so we then become defensive.

I think the issue on this site and any site it is only words we see.
I do think if all sat around a table things would be different, if we were it's easier to get being the thinking and know the person.

Yes God loves for us to walk like Jesus, it is God who works in us to conform us the image of Christ, but to me not the other way around.

Even if we or don't even think we are getting it wrong one thing is for sure.

"God search my innermost being reveal to me the chaff in my life and purify it"

Do that all the time, and boy it's painful at times and surprising.

Sure grace can be misused but it can also be negated.
Either way it stunts growth and will affect how we walk with others and also how we reveal Jesus in us.

 

[Meggido]

EVERYTHING IN THE WORD OF GOD IS THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS

True, but most of the time a stick mentioned in scripture is just a stick...when we start seeing allegory /types/shadows in all things, we become blind, because we only see, what we are expecting the allegory/types/shadow to show us and not what should be revealed to us by his Spirit, who searches all the deep things, yes all the deep things of God.

Allegorical/type/shadow interpretation has its place, but to use it in everything leads to deception and bluntly put, a very myopic view of Scripture.

 

[stonesoffire]

The life process you mention is the process of sanctification and this is where we will not agree.
Sanctification is a cooperative process

.

Sanctification is the action of Holy Spirit in our life. He Himself is our sanctification.

1. by truth- John 17:19
2. by faith- Acts 26:18
3. by the Holy Ghost Romans 15:16
4. In Christ Jesus 1Cor 1:2
5. In His name and by His Spirit 1Cor 6:11
6. By the Word and prayer 1Tim 4:5
7. For His work 2 Tim 2:21
8. For unity of His body Heb 2: 11
9. His sacrificial body Heb 10: 10-14
10. His blood Heb 10:29
11. By God through Jesus Jude 1:1

Our part is to depart from iniquity. Then are we meet or ready for the Masters use. All the work of Jesus through Holy Spirit to bring us to the place of His use.

It's better to let the Word instruct so that we have the mind of Christ rather than our own opinion.

It's not three strikes you're out in the Kingdom...He's more merciful than we can ever think.


Back later...is all I have time for now.

 

[Meggido]

That isn't the Israel which GOD pointed to from
the beginning

and that is what the Jews will be fighting for but it's not THE ISRAEL
which GOD pointed to from the beginning

this is a perfect example of how allegory interpretation leads into deception...you seem to be brushing close to replacement theology, be careful there....

 

[PennEd]

We're called to obey.........that's what we are.....we're called to obey Jesus Christ.

Why does everyone get all riled up about obedience? or works?

In all the reading I've done in the threads about Faith and Works, no one has every said that they're saved by works. They all have agreed that we're saved by God's grace through faith because of the voluntary death of Jesus who died and atoned for our sins. Everyone agrees that this is how we're saved.

So if you all agree that salvation is through Christ and you all say that works will follow those who believe, where is the disagreement?

1 Peter 1:1, 2

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

We're called to obey what? The 10 commandments? The 600+ levitical law?

I believe we are called to obey THE Gospel. Once we are born again WE ARE HIS KIDS!!! We will then be transformed by the Holy Spirit to follow HIS LAW that We love Him with all our heart strength mind and soul, and love our neighbor as yourself. We are a NEW CREATION. Born of the Spirit.
Can Any child do good works to become YOUR child? Or are they YOUR children by BIRTH or adoption? And once they BECOME YOUR OWN child is there ANYTHING that do or say that would make them no longer your special child?

I don't know how anyone can peruse the boards and make the comment that NO ONE is advocating that works save you.

One thread ALONE has 18000 posts that would make that remark absurd.

Sorry for the bluntness.

 

[miknik5]

not everything in the Bible is an allegory or type or shadow...

If what you say about Joshua is true, then your version of the truth makes God a liar....best read Joshua and see for yourself...he was commanded by God to go possess the land...

This is the epidemic in the church today....benefit based theology is building up little consumer of God and expect he does all the work....and it is his responsibility to give you the promise...

The Book of Joshua is the greatest prophetic rebuke to the easy believing, skim milk drinking, diet bread stick applying, sugar coated 3 point motivational talking, greasy grace nugget eating church of today.

Joshua received the promise as did Caleb because of their belief ,faith and obedience to take back what the enemy stole and knowing that Jehovah Saboath was leading the charge...they did not sit passively by and wait for God to give it to them as you so fondly proclaim.....2 tribes show what being passive does for your inheritance....

Joshua didn't really lay a physical hand to defeating the walls of Jericho sir

He walked around and around and around seven times and then when the trumpet was blown then the massive construction was brought down

 

[miknik5]

this is a perfect example of how allegory interpretation leads into deception...you seem to be brushing close to replacement theology, be careful there....

Replacement theology?

Replacement theology?


NEVER!


CHRIST simply took back what belonged to HIM from the beginning

 

[miknik5]

The TESTIMONY of JESUS


IS

The SPIRIT of


PROPHECY



Every WORD of GOD spoken in lower and visible signs and representations and shadows spoke of and pointed us to the HIGHER and INVISIBLE TRUTHS and REALITIES hidden and found in
HIS SON

GOD hid HIS SON throughout HIS WORD so that when the fullness of time would come, we would look back and bring to remembrance that ALL ALONG GOD spoke of HIS SON

 

[miknik5]

Isaiah 8

bind up the testimony