Tithing...

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,768
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#61
Mat 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Jesus seemed to think we should tithe.
You overlooked the temporal context and the tense... "ought to have done" as in past-completed action. Jesus is speaking to people under the Law; Christians aren't under the Law.


Sometimes people are so busy pointing out hypocrites they forget to tithe...
Sometimes people are so busy writing pithy comments that they forget to read the refutations of their position which others have written.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,242
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#62
Thanks for the Biblegate. I have been using it today, and I find that in some versions of the Word the word surplus is substituted as abundance.

I have operated a Farmall and a John Deere tractor in my time, and dI know that most crops produce many times the investment of the planting, but thsi does not justify saying the people were paying on 10% of the surplus. Even so, ten percent of the return (harvest) of any planting does not amount to a burden.....and it helped the Levitical priests, widows and orphans, and the needy in general...........in the theocracy known as the first Israel, never seen again after its dissolution.
 
Jan 24, 2009
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#63
Mat 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Jesus seemed to think we should tithe.
You overlooked the temporal context and the tense... "ought to have done" as in past-completed action. Jesus is speaking to people under the Law; Christians aren't under the Law.
Pro-tithers like to point out this Scripture as well as Luke 18.

While there is plenty of attention on Matt 23:23 to push tithing, I find it interesting that what is labeled as a weightier issue in this verse gets far less attention...justice and mercy and faith.

 

88

Senior Member
Nov 14, 2016
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#64
Justice & Mercy cost alot---- just ask Franklin Graham..
 
Jan 24, 2009
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#65
Justice & Mercy cost alot---- just ask Franklin Graham..
"Alot" is not a word.

Secondly, you forgot "faith".

As for the Grahams, I point you to the
Billy Graham Evangelical Association on tithing.

While Graham personally supports tithing, the half-hearted endorsement rather clearly admits there isn't support for it in the N.T.

I'm glad to see the short piece admits that the tithe was the tenth part(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) rather than the first of ten(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10). Hopefully the perceptive reader can draw from this that "first fruits" are a completely different topic than tithes.

Unfortunately, this piece entirely fails to point out that there were multiple types of tithes required in the O.T., not just one. This whole business about giving 10% is garbage. There were multiple types of tithes required in the O.T.

Those who would point to the O.T. law on tithing and demand that Christians tithe almost always demand 10% when there were at least 3 types of tithes(far more than 10%) required.

WHY?! If people are going to push tithing, why only demand 1/3 of the tithes mentioned in the O.T.?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,242
6,532
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#66
Perhaps am misunderstanding, but I believe the post is saying justice and mercy from man is very expensive, and some people can and do buy it while others fall through the cracks. Fall through the cracks is an euphamism for nobody gave a damn about them.

Faith, mercy and justice, in the Word, refer to the principles which must be applied in order to hand the law lawfully.

PS...I almost forgot.. when we understand what others are saying, it is only brotherly love to overlook typos, misspellings, and/or grammatical clumsiness. It should mak no difference to love understanding what is said.
 
Jan 24, 2009
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#67
Perhaps am misunderstanding, but I believe the post is saying justice and mercy from man is very expensive, and some people can and do buy it while others fall through the cracks. Fall through the cracks is an euphamism for nobody gave a damn about them.

Faith, mercy and justice, in the Word, refer to the principles which must be applied in order to hand the law lawfully.

PS...I almost forgot.. when we understand what others are saying, it is only brotherly love to overlook typos, misspellings, and/or grammatical clumsiness. It should mak no difference to love understanding what is said.
If you use the "Reply with Quote", which is right next to the "Reply" option, when responding to a post, we'll know who you are responding to. As you can see above, "Reply with Quote" includes the your post.

I read that your sight isn't so good. Does the larger font help?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,242
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#68
Perhaps the response proximity may lead the wise to the source. Just like here.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
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#69
You overlooked the temporal context and the tense... "ought to have done" as in past-completed action. Jesus is speaking to people under the Law; Christians aren't under the Law.
OK, so if a "Christian" decides to come by your house tonight, shoot you, have his way with your wife and steal all your posessions remember, he is not under the law and no sin is committed.






Sometimes people are so busy writing pithy comments that they forget to read the refutations of their position which others have written.
Hmmm, nice self analysis. As far as the Law being done away, Jesus Christ said this...

Mat 5:17* Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.*
Mat 5:18* For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.*

Luk 16:17* And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.*

Luk 21:33* Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.*

Now since no one has ever heard the voice of the Father...

Joh 5:37* And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.*

That leaves Christ to have said these things...

Exo 20:1* And God spake all these words, saying,*
Exo 20:2* I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.*
Exo 20:3* Thou shalt have no other gods before me.*
Exo 20:4* Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:*

And this was Christ Who spoke those words...

1Co 10:1* Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;*
1Co 10:2* And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;*
1Co 10:3* And did all eat the same spiritual meat;*
1Co 10:4* And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.*
 
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Silverwings

Senior Member
Jul 27, 2016
1,368
495
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#71
Jesus said He loved a cheerful giver, not of necessity , but from the abundance of the heart. Give and it shall be given unto you, good measure, shaken together, and running over shall He cause men to give unto you.

To me this says that God wants us to give because we want to, because of the love we have in our hearts for him, not because we are under obligation to give, and that He will bring the increase.
 
Jan 24, 2009
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#72
Jesus said He loved a cheerful giver, not of necessity , but from the abundance of the heart. Give and it shall be given unto you, good measure, shaken together, and running over shall He cause men to give unto you.

To me this says that God wants us to give because we want to, because of the love we have in our hearts for him, not because we are under obligation to give, and that He will bring the increase.
Jesus said He loved a cheerful giver, not of necessity , but from the abundance of the heart. Great N.T. Scripture reference on giving.

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. -2 Cor 9:7


Tithing proponents will read it as:

"Each of you should give the ten percent you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. -Not 2 Cor 9:7


Give and it shall be given unto you, good measure, shaken together, and running over shall He cause men to give unto you. This one, I'm not as convinced on. The verse you've taken comes from Luke 6. In various versions of the Bible, the section has the title "Do Not Judge":

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

He also told them this parable: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into a pit? The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher.

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
-Luke 6:37-42


The above section of Luke reminds me much of what I read in Matthew 7, which is also about judging:

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. -Matt 7:1-6
 

mystic7

Senior Member
Jul 27, 2013
289
64
28
#73
My views;
I tithe in faith to Christ, who today is my High Priest and I have been blessed, especially in times of need. Whatever happens to the money after is not my issue, I won’t be held accountable.
I view tithing as an investment to the things of God. I believe the funds should be used for maintenance for the church buildings, help the lifestyle of the Pastor, equipment’s for ministries and to help others within the church and community.
Attending a service with anointing presence of God, in a building knowing my tithes has been a contributing factor is great blessing.
But if I see my investment being abused, like a good investor, I pull out and invest somewhere else and I have personally done this.
God doesn’t want your tithes, he doesn’t need it, and it’s the obedience God is seeking.
Hebrews 7:1-28 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
Hebrews 8:1-5 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,995
927
113
#74
Jesus said He loved a cheerful giver, not of necessity , but from the abundance of the heart. Great N.T. Scripture reference on giving.

Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. -2 Cor 9:7


Tithing proponents will read it as:

"Each of you should give the ten percent you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. -Not 2 Cor 9:7


Give and it shall be given unto you, good measure, shaken together, and running over shall He cause men to give unto you. This one, I'm not as convinced on. The verse you've taken comes from Luke 6. In various versions of the Bible, the section has the title "Do Not Judge":

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

He also told them this parable: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into a pit? The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher.

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
-Luke 6:37-42


The above section of Luke reminds me much of what I read in Matthew 7, which is also about judging:

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. -Matt 7:1-6
Hi Test,

Is that the only thing you can see on Luke 6 about "judging" and none else?

How about these:

Luke 6:1 speaks about "corn" perhaps more associated with the giving of tithes.
Luke 6:2 "sabbath temple worship" connected to giving of offerings
Luke 6:12 prayer and continous prayer associated with the giving of time
Luke 6:23 the giving of reward in heaven
Luke 6:30 giving of goods

Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Well, that might be true to judging others but it is also true in giving.
 
Jan 24, 2009
1,601
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#75
Hi Test,

Is that the only thing you can see on Luke 6 about "judging" and none else?
I wasn't addressing the whole chapter. The verse used in support of giving is in a section about judging. That's not speaking for the whole chapter. I am, however, looking at the immediate context. I also noted that a similar phrase is used elsewhere in Scripture, and the topic there happens to be the same thing, i.e., judging.

How about these:

Luke 6:1 speaks about "corn" perhaps more associated with the giving of tithes.
Was Jesus a farmer? How are you associating his activity with tithing?!

Luke 6:2 "sabbath temple worship" connected to giving of offerings
What was Jesus doing with the product, as noted in verse 1?

Luke 6:12 prayer and continous prayer associated with the giving of time
No disagreement that this should remind us of the need to pray.

Luke 6:23 the giving of reward in heaven
For enduring what's mentioned in vv 20-22.

Luke 6:30 giving of goods

Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Well, that might be true to judging others but it is also true in giving.
Perhaps goods. Perhaps possessions.
 

88

Senior Member
Nov 14, 2016
3,517
77
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#76
Through tithes and offerings ---- justice and mercy can be dispensed---(Samaritan's Purse)
 
Jan 24, 2009
1,601
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#78
Through tithes and offerings ---- justice and mercy can be dispensed---(Samaritan's Purse)
As for the Grahams, I point you to the Billy Graham Evangelical Association on tithing.

While Graham personally supports tithing, the half-hearted endorsement rather clearly admits there isn't support for it in the N.T.

I'm glad to see the short piece admits that the tithe was the tenth part(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) rather than the first of ten(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10). Hopefully the perceptive reader can draw from this that "first fruits" are a completely different topic than tithes.

Unfortunately, this piece entirely fails to point out that there were multiple types of tithes required in the O.T., not just one. This whole business about giving 10% is garbage. There were multiple types of tithes required in the O.T.

Those who would point to the O.T. law on tithing and demand that Christians tithe almost always demand 10% when there were at least 3 types of tithes(far more than 10%) required.

WHY?! If people are going to push tithing, why only demand 1/3 of the tithes mentioned in the O.T.?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,683
13,132
113
#79
Through tithes and offerings ---- justice and mercy can be dispensed---(Samaritan's Purse)
yes, but the Samaritan wasn't paying a tithe or satisfying the requirement of an offering
 
Jan 24, 2009
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#80
yes, but the Samaritan wasn't paying a tithe or satisfying the requirement of an offering
He prolly wasn't carrying a purse, either. ;)

(Isn't it a reference to Franklin Graham's Samaritan's Purse?) :confused: