To all the post trib and no trib believers.

[dcontroversal]

I think the real Antichrist is the spirit being that is presently restrained in the prison for spirits(abyss), I suppose he will use a human host,but not totally sure on that one. Anyway, it is obvious that the Antichrist is restrained in the abyss and will be released whenever God decides.

Absolutely....when it is TIME for him to be revealed....not before and not one second too late!

 

[HisHolly]

For people to say it's the Holy Spirit that restraining and when He's moved out of the way, the AC will come... Is ridiculous.. The Holy Spirit hasn't always been here to be in the way.. He came as a promise when Jesus went to the Father... Before that He'd come and go. Nobody can have that make sense to me.. They say we won't be here BC when He's removed it would be against no orphan promise to leave us... But if the AC being restricted from showing up is bc the Holy Spirit then what held him back before? If it were the HS why then is all this mess going on? I'd think all evil would be restrained.. If He holds back some why not all? Timing... Right.... Pretrib lol

 

[dcontroversal]

For people to say it's the Holy Spirit that restraining and when He's moved out of the way, the AC will come... Is ridiculous.. The Holy Spirit hasn't always been here to be in the way.. He came as a promise when Jesus went to the Father... Before that He'd come and go. Nobody can have that make sense to me.. They say we won't be here BC when He's removed it would be against no orphan promise to leave us... But if the AC being restricted from showing up is bc the Holy Spirit then what held him back before? If it were the HS why then is all this mess going on? I'd think all evil would be restrained.. If He holds back some why not all? Timing... Right.... Pretrib lol

When it is time he will come....there is no evidence that it is the Spirit restraining....it is an assumption without fact...

and if the Spirit is gone who will....convict, convince when the two witnesses preach, how can men be saved during the tribulation, who are the SAINTS being murdered for a witness and testimony if there is no SPIRITUAL discernment etc.......

 

[pottersclay]

Ok saints time to dig in. What is happening here is a conflict of interest, let me explain.

In order to understand revelation, you (the saints) must understand who you are.
We are a new creation in Christ Jesus never before seen on this earth. Scripture is clear on that issue.
Let me be clear on what I'm about to say and understand this truth.

The conflict lays in this fact there are over 2500 scripture referring to these events In the book of revelation there are 2 events going on. The rapture and the second coming.
The rapture has nothing to do with Israel it is Jesus promise to us the church. The second coming has nothing to do with the church it is God's promise to Israel.

 

[Gbishop]

Hello brothers this is my first post.I've read some of the other Post's made on this thread and I thank God for revealing his plan for salvation through his word.That being said wether pre,mid,or post trib let's rejoice in the fact that one day soon Jesus will return.Until then I will count it all joy as I look forward to meeting him face to face.

 

[GaryA]

2 Thessalonians 2:

[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [SUP]3[/SUP] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [SUP]4[/SUP] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [SUP]5[/SUP] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? [SUP]6[/SUP] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [SUP]7[/SUP] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [SUP]8[/SUP] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [SUP]9[/SUP] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [SUP]10[/SUP] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [SUP]11[/SUP] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [SUP]12[/SUP] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


According to the 'grammar of the language'...

The phrase 'what withholdeth' in verse 6 refers back to 'except there come a falling away first' in verse 3 - meaning - the 'man of sin' ( verse 3 ) will not be revealed until there has first been a falling away - or, 'apostasy' ( Strongs: G646 ); in effect, the "holding back" of the 'apostasy' is what "holds back" the 'revealing' [ of the 'man of sin' ]. So then, the 'he' ( x2 ) in verse 7 is [ that which is ] "holding back" the 'apostasy'. When 'he' is 'taken out of the way', the 'apostasy' then proceeds -- after which, the 'man of sin' is 'revealed'.

The idea of 'he' in verse 7 being [ the power that is ] "restraining the full force of sin" ( directly ) is not in the passage. Yes, there is a lot going on that is indicated in verse 9; however, that is not what the "restraining" is about. What is being "restrained" ( directly ) is the 'apostasy' - not "the power of Satan"...

I think Holly is definitely right about one thing. And, it is evidenced by the phrase 'For the mystery of iniquity doth already work' in verse 7. What is being "restrained" ( directly ) is not sin or evil - neither 'in part' nor 'in full'.

Since the Holy Spirit is required for salvation, I do not believe that the Holy Spirit will be "totally removed from the Earth" as long as there is anyone on the Earth who God is giving any more opportunity to be saved.

Order of Events:

apostasy
revealing
coming

 

[GaryA]

The second coming has nothing to do with the church it is God's promise to Israel.

No.

It has everything to do with the Church - the Bride of Christ.

Israel has a part also.

Both will be present - each having their own part - during the 1000-year Reign of Christ.

 

[GaryA]

2 Thessalonians 2:

[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [SUP]3[/SUP] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [SUP]4[/SUP] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [SUP]5[/SUP] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? [SUP]6[/SUP] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [SUP]7[/SUP] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [SUP]8[/SUP] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [SUP]9[/SUP] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [SUP]10[/SUP] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [SUP]11[/SUP] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [SUP]12[/SUP] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


According to the 'grammar of the language'...

The phrase 'what withholdeth' in verse 6 refers back to 'except there come a falling away first' in verse 3 - meaning - the 'man of sin' ( verse 3 ) will not be revealed until there has first been a falling away - or, 'apostasy' ( Strongs: G646 ); in effect, the "holding back" of the 'apostasy' is what "holds back" the 'revealing' [ of the 'man of sin' ]. So then, the 'he' ( x2 ) in verse 7 is [ that which is ] "holding back" the 'apostasy'. When 'he' is 'taken out of the way', the 'apostasy' then proceeds -- after which, the 'man of sin' is 'revealed'.

The idea of 'he' in verse 7 being [ the power that is ] "restraining the full force of sin" ( directly ) is not in the passage. Yes, there is a lot going on that is indicated in verse 9; however, that is not what the "restraining" is about. What is being "restrained" ( directly ) is the 'apostasy' - not "the power of Satan"...

I think Holly is definitely right about one thing. And, it is evidenced by the phrase 'For the mystery of iniquity doth already work' in verse 7. What is being "restrained" ( directly ) is not sin or evil - neither 'in part' nor 'in full'.

Since the Holy Spirit is required for salvation, I do not believe that the Holy Spirit will be "totally removed from the Earth" as long as there is anyone on the Earth who God is giving any more opportunity to be saved.

Order of Events:

apostasy
revealing
coming

I do believe that, upon commencing with the "pouring out" of the Wrath of God - the 'vials' - all that are left on the Earth are the 'Wicked' ( verse 8, above ) and all opportunity to be saved will be 'withdrawn' by God at that point. ( verses 11-12, above ).

 

[tanakh]

Hello tanakh,

That is correct. When the Holy Spirit, as the One who is restraining, is taken out of the way, this is when the church, whom the Holy Spirit indwells, must also be removed, else it would make Jesus a liar. See what Jesus said below regarding the Holy Spirit and believers:

"If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—the Spirit of truth.

It doesnt make Jesus a liar it means that the Holy Spirit is still on Earth with the Church but no longer restraining satan/Anti Christ but protecting the church from the wrath of God. Otherwise how do the so called tribulation saints
manage to be saved or the 144000. Revelation also speaks of an Angel with the everlasting Gospel which would
have no effect without the presence of the Holy Spirit. The Israelites were not taken from the Earth during the plagues of Egypt, neither was Lot at Sodom or Rahab at Jerecho or Noah when the whole world was drowned. These were all shadows/Types of the great tribulation.

My belief is that there is one second coming the righteous dead are resurrected and those living will become immortal at a twinkling of an eye and together both living and dead will meet Christ in the air and join him and the Angelic host as he descends to the Earth to defeat the Antichrist and his armies at Armaggedon.

 

[pottersclay]

Hello brothers this is my first post.I've read some of the other Post's made on this thread and I thank God for revealing his plan for salvation through his word.That being said wether pre,mid,or post trib let's rejoice in the fact that one day soon Jesus will return.Until then I will count it all joy as I look forward to meeting him face to face.

Well glad to have you on board...welcome and yes the blessed hope of Jesus's return brings great rejoicing.

 

[pottersclay]

No.

It has everything to do with the Church - the Bride of Christ.

Israel has a part also.

Both will be present - each having their own part - during the 1000-year Reign of Christ.

Our salvation is in the finished works of christ. It is complete and sure.
For Israel it is yet to come, scripture is clear on that. We both take part in the 1000 year reign yes you are right on that.
Notice the differences in scripture when referring to the events. Some referring to a series of events some referring to a sudden happening. I will post a graph latter on this when time permits.
Jesus is talking about both events. Paul also. That's where the confusion is.

 

[popeye]

For people to say it's the Holy Spirit that restraining and when He's moved out of the way, the AC will come... Is ridiculous.. The Holy Spirit hasn't always been here to be in the way.. He came as a promise when Jesus went to the Father... Before that He'd come and go. Nobody can have that make sense to me.. They say we won't be here BC when He's removed it would be against no orphan promise to leave us... But if the AC being restricted from showing up is bc the Holy Spirit then what held him back before? If it were the HS why then is all this mess going on? I'd think all evil would be restrained.. If He holds back some why not all? Timing... Right.... Pretrib lol

What verses say that?

Are you a " no rapture" adherent?

 

[popeye]

As strange as it may seem, the timing of the tribulation could mean the difference between vast numbers ending up in Heaven or Hell. Allow me to explain, Jesus said that He would return after a brief period of INTENSE persecution, a period of time He called the great tribulation. Satan has devised a plan for the endtime church so that they believe we will miss that tribulation, it is called the pre-trib gathering of the church. Of course people love this as it is a way out of the tribulation(but not really). You see, pre-trib has set a definite time that Jesus HAS to return. Pre-trib says that Jesus has to return before the appearing of the Antichrist and the tribulation, when the Antichrist appears and the tribulation begins and Jesus did not return it will appear to the pre-trib folks that Jesus did not keep His word. The pre-trib church will be trying to remain faithful under terrible persecution to a Person who obviously did not remain faithful to them. Of course Jesus will still be faithful because He never said He would return pre-trib He said He would return post-trib. Pre-trib is a set up by Satan to cause a great falling away from the faith just before the return of Christ.[/QUOTE

No,Jesus gathering his bride pretrib is easy to defend truth.

You are "tribulation centered"

None of you guys can accurately interpret mat 25 parable of the virgins.

We are the ones promoting the bride and groom.

That causes an interesting dynamic when you guys,being anti pretrib,for some bizzare reason,are forced to refute mat 25, rev 14, as well as 1 thes 4.

In fact,it is YOU that has NO LEGITIMATE VERSES to promote your easily debunked spew,claiming we follow Satan.

You,sir,are a liar.

 

[popeye]

Comical how we as pretrib adherents can rest in the "restrainer" being any number of things. It has no bearing on the rapture.

Postrib,once again is forced to go personal to hide their bizarre apologetics to a simple no brainer.

I would be embarrassed also.

It think I just stumbled onto why they go personal.

 

[Blain]

Everyone I understand this is a touchy subject but no arrows need to be shot. we all have different beliefs views and understanding of the scriptures and we all are at different levels of maturity in faith but if we allow a debate like this to tear us apart do you think God is happy or is satan? Regardless of what we believe and think if we start mocking and attacking each other then Jesus proved his words in saying how can a kingdom divided against itself stand?

We are called to be love and love alone and love is proven when we respond in a calm and humble manner and sometimes proven even more by shaking the dust off our feet and walking away

 

[popeye]

I think the real Antichrist is the spirit being that is presently restrained in the prison for spirits(abyss), I suppose he will use a human host,but not totally sure on that one. Anyway, it is obvious that the Antichrist is restrained in the abyss and will be released whenever God decides.

Your doctrine obviously dictates your interpretation of scripture.

Your doctrine takes no brainers off the table,and leads you into the realm of your own craftiness.

The word of God says "number of a man". He is a man inhabited by Satan and demons. Not a "spirit being"

 

[popeye]

Everyone I understand this is a touchy subject but no arrows need to be shot. we all have different beliefs views and understanding of the scriptures and we all are at different levels of maturity in faith but if we allow a debate like this to tear us apart do you think God is happy or is satan? Regardless of what we believe and think if we start mocking and attacking each other then Jesus proved his words in saying how can a kingdom divided against itself stand?

We are called to be love and love alone and love is proven when we respond in a calm and humble manner and sometimes proven even more by shaking the dust off our feet and walking away

The hour is late.

Several revelations have come forth recently,basically sealing the fact that the rapture is indeed the next great event.

Postrib relies HEAVILY on alenski's tactic of "destroying your opposition"

They are embarrassed. That is why they go to the extreme,of calling the body of Christ " satanically inspired"

 

[Blain]

Your doctrine obviously dictates your interpretation of scripture.

Your doctrine takes no brainers off the table,and leads you into the realm of your own craftiness.

The word of God says "number of a man". He is a man inhabited by Satan and demons. Not a "spirit being"

Well the spirit of the antichrist has been in this world since adam and eve and the spirit of the antichrist is satan himself and has been in mens hearts even to this day every word thought and act of hatred and cruelty every act and thought and word of blasphemy and sin every kind of evil is seen every day. Even in these forums both the spirit of God and the antichrist are very much alive and active even as we are debating about scriptures and doctrines however the antichrist himself like Jesus will be the physical embodiment of the spirit.

Jesus was the physical embodiment of God's spirit heart and very being and likewise when the antichrist does appear will be the same he will be the physical embodiment of satans heart and spirit as well. People try to separate the spirit of the antichrist and the antichrist himself as if they are two separate beings but they are one and the same

 

[popeye]

Some post tribs have spent a lifetime on a doctrine that is not defendable.

They have zero verses.

Zero

 

[popeye]

Well the spirit of the antichrist has been in this world since adam and eve and the spirit of the antichrist is satan himself and has been in mens hearts even to this day every word thought and act of hatred and cruelty every act and thought and word of blasphemy and sin every kind of evil is seen every day. Even in these forums both the spirit of God and the antichrist are very much alive and active even as we are debating about scriptures and doctrines however the antichrist himself like Jesus will be the physical embodiment of the spirit.

Jesus was the physical embodiment of God's spirit heart and very being and likewise when the antichrist does appear will be the same he will be the physical embodiment of satans heart and spirit as well. People try to separate the spirit of the antichrist and the antichrist himself as if they are two separate beings but they are one and the same

Not sure what your point is.

Seems you are saying he is not a man?