"TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Yonah,

Let me elaborate on this thread a little more.

Part of the issue I have with Torah observers is their attempt to discredit Christianity in general. It is something you have engaged in.

For instance, you constantly comment in the chat room that Christianity has gone far off the track over the centuries. This is part and parcel of the "Torah observer" claim..that they have the "true faith" that is apostolic and non-observers are in error.

Additionally, you comment that there are 60,000 denominations and this is reflective of the fact that Christianity is flawed. Well, what do you consider your organization, whether it is a home church or whatever? If I'm not mistaken, you are involved with a home group fellowship. Does your little group think it has superior teachings? If so, how are you different than the 60,000 denominations you reference?

And, the number you quote is twice as high as what Roman Catholics claim. They often use the number of denominations to infer that Protestantism is in error. So do cults and kooky groups. It's a typical ploy of cultic groups in order to discredit the rest of Christianity.

In light of this, your comment regarding Reformed theology being Satanic, to me, appears to be just another attempt to attack Christianity.

I am also not oblivious to the remarks of "Torah observers" who claim that they have the "ancient path" and that evangelical Christianity does not. Those remarks are made as well..it is common for Torah Observers to make these comments, along with the claim that they observe "my Father's commandments" with the inference that others are not.

And, you have noted that non observers are sinning by not observing the Sabbath in the chat room.

So, the point of this thread is that if Torah observers think they are observing Torah, they are inconsistent because Torah cannot be observed. There is no functioning Levitical priesthood and no Temple. They do not go to Jerusalem for the festivals as Torah required.

If they want to say there is value in observing the shadows and types, with the realization that Christ fulfilled them, I have no issue with that. I have observant friends who do this, with no accusation that others are in sin for non-observance. However, that is not the normal position. This thread proves that. Notice the continual remarks by the SDA about other Christians being in sin for non-observance of the Sabbath. And, you yourself have acknowledged that is your view. It would be hard for it not to be, since you define sin to be the "transgression of the Law", and interpret "the Law" to be the Mosaic Law.

I know the thinking because I thought, in general, the same way..although my view of "the Law" was more restricted than the Mosaic Law.

All have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)..any deviation from the glory of God (God's holiness) is sin..and that includes a lot more than Torah. Torah was a faint glimmer of God's holiness, and it was a "basket" of commandments, with different purposes. Days and meats are not an issue according to Romans 14 and Colossians 2:16-17. Jesus is the fullest expression of God's holiness. To define sin in the way a Torah observer does is to lack understanding of the intention of Torah, and to ignore points I've brought up in this thread.

At any rate, your remarks in the chatroom are noted by other people as being accusatory toward the rest of Christianity. You may not be blatant about it, but the comments are being noted by others. And when such comments continue to be made by "Torah observers", I am going to react to them as long as I'm on the site. I spent enough time listening to nonsense like that as an Armstrongite and I don't want others to be affected by the same thinking.

And, you guys can claim that my Armstrongite experience was abusive and that I am embittered..or that I am mentally ill..in order to discredit me. But the same worldview affects a large segment of "Torah observers". I have already commented on the local Messianic congregation that is proclaiming "Truth above Tradition" with the inference that the rest of Christianity is following tradition and that they are the arbiters of truth..same mentality as the Armstrongites. I asked them if they consider the rest of Christianity to be in sin due to non-observance..they would not answer me which is in essence to make the claim that, yes, they are.

I consider it part of my obligation to drag beliefs like this into the light so that those who might be fooled by them know what's going on in the minds of the people who are claiming such things. And I'll do that as long as I'm here.

Additionally, I've tried being non-confrontational on this issue in the past, and basically what happens is that observers simply continue to be aggressive in their comments. Paul says in Colossians 2:16-17 to not let others judge you in respect to those issues. It is obvious that observers engage in constant judging and inferring through their comments that the rest of Christianity is in error. Galatians, Philippians 3, Acts 15, and Colossians 2:16-17 indicates this is a pattern amongst Judaizers..to judge non-observers of being in sin, or not as holy as they are. I encourage everyone to read these sections of Scripture and arrive at their own conclusions.

I am totally ok with anyone who observes and doesn't make accusations that others are sinning, but that isn't want happens. Read this thread. Ask Yonah if he believes it is a sin to fail to keep the Sabbath. He's publicly stated it in the chat room. So have other SDAs.

To be honest, if there was a group with proper soteriology that observed Sabbath, festivals, and clean meat laws, and had a focus that was upon Christ, and didn't claim others were in sin for non-observance, I'd be glad to fellowship with them. But I don't fellowship with Judaizers. And, since I don't believe days and meats make any difference, I fellowship with a group that meets on Sunday. I know they bear the fruit of the Spirit...better than I do in fact. They probably wouldn't approve of my approach regarding this topic, but then they don't understand the mentality or dangers either.

 

[sparkman]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Here's a related thread on this topic:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...clean-meat-laws-how-judaizers-miss-point.html

I created it today.

It basically describes my approach to thinking about this topic, and how Judaizers dwell in a two dimensional world that causes them to fail to have an appreciation for the very commandments they so loudly proclaim as binding.

I highly recommend Paradise Restored, by David Chilton, to understand the overview of Scripture and how it pertains to this topic. The framework is expressed by Creation, Fall, Rescue (Christ), Restoration. Please read the thread if you want to understand how I approach the topic. This "bookends" approach to Scripture are the spectacles through which I view Scripture as a whole, and the topic of the Mosaic Covenant fits very neatly into this understanding.

 

[LoveGodForever]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

You know, I praise God for obvious kooks that show their mentality clearly. See, I try to explain the Sabbathkeeper mentality as paranoid and full of conspiracy theorist stuff, and wild prophetic speculation. Guys like gotime know better than to display it obviously. They don't make good poster children for Sabbatarian kookiness, and they disappoint me in this regard

I lived a decade around such kooks and I was one myself, dwelling in a worldview that viewed Christianity as a Satan-deceived bunch of non-believers. I fooled myself into thinking that my Sabbathkeeping and clean meat diet did something spiritually to set me apart from THEM. They had nothing to teach me. They were spiritually blinded and in the snares of the devil.

You may not be as extreme as Armstrongites but the same mentality is there. Thanks for illustrating my characterization. If I only had guys like gotime around, I wouldn't be able to support my assertions as well. He usually doesn't display it as well, unless the Pope mentions Sunday

Just so you guys know, SDAs claim that they are the remnant, true church because 1) they keep the "commandments of God" which they understand to be talking about the Ten Commandments and not every commandment that is applicable to US and 2) they have the "spirit of prophecy" which is in essence Ellen G. White's kooky writings and possibly some other kook who may come along later.

They claim that the "seal of God" is keeping the Sabbath rather than the Holy Spirit, and the "mark of the Beast" will be Sabbath-breaking or Sunday observance at some point eschatologically.

Hello Sparkman,

Well here in is an amazing thing! Someone challenges your position with God's Word. Neither will you bother to address any of the posts, the questions asked, or the scriptures in any of these posts. Is it because you cannot defend your position from the Word of God that you feel the need to attack the messenger instead? You are not mad at me my friend. It is God's Word not mine. Time to leave.

God's Sheep hear His Voice...

 

[Yonah]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Apply that to yourself. You claim that Reformed theology is Satanic, and continue to do so. Educated Christians have discussed this issue for centuries without resolving the dilemma between God's sovereignty and man's responsibilities, both clearly taught in Scripture.

Frankly I prefer to rely on the Holy Spirit and the scriptures with prayer rather then give credit to mans opinions, regardless of how many years have gone by....


sparkman , next time you choose to attempt to quote me at least get it right and refrain from leaving much of what I said out
of your statement against me, frankly that in and of itself smacks of deception.

 

[beta]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Frankly I prefer to rely on the Holy Spirit and the scriptures with prayer rather then give credit to mans opinions, regardless of how many years have gone by....

agree with this.

 

[gotime]

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Regardless of the Sabbath issue, I hope you and all Seventh Day Adventists address the issue of abortion within your organization, and that you don't fall under God's judgment for this inconsistency. I believe that those who have facilitated this abomination know that they are committing murder of innocents.

Days and meats are nothing. Nothing. Romans 14 is plain about that, and Colossians 2:16-17 cannot be read with the SDA slant. You know what sabbaton means. You know it has a weekly context, and is not used decisively in reference to festivals in the NT. You would have to go to the Septuagint to make that argument, and even then it would be faulty because of the annual, monthly, weekly ordering which is exhibited in the OT.

Again I recommend to readers that they buy the book by Dale Ratzlaff called "Sabbath in Christ". Jesus is our Sabbath. He is what the day pointed to..redemptive rest in Him. Read Matthew 11:28-30, Colossians 2:16-17 and Hebrews 3-4 in light of this. Study it carefully. Jesus and the life of faith in Him is the "Rest of God" that the Sabbath pointed to, as a type...along with other types mentioned in Hebrews 3-4.

In the final analysis, though, God deals with people. I pray for the elect, that they would not remain in deception and that God will lead them, even if they hold some false teaching for a while.

It should be noted that my thread was not on Seventh Day Adventists but since they wanted to insert themselves into the discussion, I'm fine to point out their inconsistencies, especially with regards to abortion as it's a massive abomination.

My point was simple and you can not address it can you. That is ok I knew as I said you would not, because you can not. You can't find what is not there.

That is your inconsistency right there, You post scriptures to prove a point you can't prove and ignore the fact as seen by your responses to my initial post. Everything you are posting is form the NT, Now I am not against the NT I just happen to believe that the NT and the OT are in harmony. That is clear by the fact that the NT derives its evidence for any doctrine taught from the OT. Hence the reason there are so many quotes from the OT.

As I said in a different thread, The Apostles were also trying to reach the Jews, to do this they had to make there point form the scriptures/OT. The NT is letters and recordings that were designed to show the truth by way of the OT. Yet you come here suggesting that you can show truth without it? Then you have no authority from God but your own private interpretation of the second witness.

One can prove the end of circumcision from the OT
One can prove the end of the earthly sanctuary form the OT
One can prove the end of animal sacrifices in the OT.
One can prove everything concerning the messiah from the OT
One can prove the true sanctuary is in heaven from he OT
One can prove a change of priesthood form the OT.
Once can preach the sermon on the mount using only the OT
One can find the teachings of Jesus and the disciples from the OT.
The second coming form the OT.
Judgement from the OT.
The end from the OT.
Etc In short everything is there. But do you know what you can't find?

You can't find an end to the 7th day Sabbath in the OT.
You can't find a change of the 7th day Sabbath from the OT.

You know what you can find in the OT?

You can find that the 7th day Sabbath will still apply in the new earth.
You can find that the 7th day Sabbath applies to Gentiles who want to join the end day Church.
You can find where the 7th day Sabbath is for Gentiles after Jesus is manifest as messiah.

You are unable to prove your point form the OT because your point does not exist. Its that simple so you keep side stepping the issue and misapplying the NT Because your foundation is faulty. If you were right you would be able to harmonise the two witnesses/OT and NT. But as it stands you pit one witness against the other. This proves that you are using private interpretation because the God who inspired the NT also inspired the OT.

The OT was not incomplete it was just the Jews had a veil over their eyes so that they read but did not see what was said.

You have taken your own private views applied them to the second witness and thus veiled your heart so that you ignore the first witness which goes against your private interpretation.

What is my proof for all this? you are, you can't show your view from the OT thus your view is private and not of God. You side step the point and bring up other issues because you know you can't do it and that makes you uncomfortable. So you instead of humbling yourself before Gods word and truth look for supposed holes and judgements against others to distract your conciseness and validate your error.

The word of God says:

2Co_13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.




there is a principle From the word of God that says a word is established from two or three witnesses.

You are lacking witnesses. I have two the new and the old testament both agree. Your view makes one against the other. Best rethink friend.