Torah Study

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BarlyGurl

Guest
#281
#281
Dan_473 said:
well, the subject we were talking about was labor, which Jesus points out the birds don't do...

I disagree that all creation is cursed... in the genesis story, the snake is cursed, and the ground is cursed...

unless by 'cursed' you mean 'experiences suffering'...

God has already blessed adam and eve, and I don't think that blessing was removed...
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I think you are missing that... in being blessed.... that is the original creation... at the fall, the consequences are SET.
Aside from "laboring" the little verse hardly anyone ever notices Gen.3:16b which is the curse of interpersonal relations between men and women.... since the fall. The basic pretense is... it shoulda been blessed experiencially... but the fall imputed consequences which have been in effect since and still are without (a person) being born again... will continue until Christ returns.

I realize this is a TORAH study... but we are Christians so I don't really have the capacity to study torah... to the exclusion of NT covenant revelation. Sorry if that mucks things up for anyone. :(
 
Dan_473

Dan_473

Senior Member
#282
Mar 11, 2014
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Tintin said:
The Fall was a huge tragedy. God knew mankind would rebel against Him, but it wasn't His desire for it to happen. I don't know where people get this idea that people didn't have wisdom before the Fall. Adam and Eve had godly wisdom. Following the Fall, they had wisdom apart from God, which is foolishness. The wisdom praised in Proverbs is godly in nature.
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you can call the fall a huge tragedy if you like... I don't see it that way...

God desired the possibility for it to happen... imo...

I don't think it's that people didn't have wisdom before the fall, it's more that eve saw that the tree would make one wise... so, imo, more wisdom...

I don't think there's such a thing as wisdom apart from God... I could be wrong...

one question I like to think about is, "would you give up your knowledge of good and evil to live a life without suffering?"
 
Billyd

Billyd

Senior Member
#283
May 8, 2014
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RachelBibleStudent said:
ok so as i promised here are some thoughts about the 'window' noah was commanded to make in the ark...

the hebrew word used is 'tsohar'...this word is never translated as 'window' except in genesis 6...and every other time that scripture describes a window it uses a different hebrew word...if it -was- a window it seems to me that it must be of some unique kind...

'tsohar' comes from a root that means 'appear' or 'mount' or 'back' or 'shine'...in the singular it may mean 'light' in the sense that light is something that 'shines' and makes things 'appear' to a viewer...in the plural form 'tsaharayim' it always refers to midday in scripture...with noon being the time when the son 'mounts' its highest point in the sky... another word derived from the same root refers to fresh oil...apparently because oil causes things to 'shine'

the singular form 'tsohar' appears only one in the bible...in genesis 6...

the traditional translation of 'window' is a sensible one because a window allows light to shine in...however a window would make me wonder about rain getting in...but as i said if it was a window then the hebrew word choice implies that it must have been a special kind of window...maybe a covered or sheltered window...

answers in genesis seems to be going with a variant on the window possibility where the window is like a skylight in the roof that can be opened and closed...this would solve the problem of water getting in and also aligns with the concept of 'midday' since it was on top of the ark and the light would best come into the ark through this opening at midday...

the more modern translation of 'roof' is also reasonable if it was a pointed roof because it would go along with the idea of 'mount' as in something coming to a high point...it would also agree with the concept of 'back' as the point of the roof would visually resemble a 'backbone'... but then again if it doesn't mean 'window' then i wonder how exactly fresh air was going to get into the ark...

actually the window and pointed roof don't have to be mutually exclusive...if the pointed roof extended past the edge of the top of the ark it would have been able to protect a window just below its overhang from rain getting in... in this case we are looking at something more like a window with a protective awning that is an extension of the roof...which really seems to fit very well with another clause in the verse that refers to some kind of length measured from the top of the ark...

some unconventional interpretations are also defensible...

it could have been an independent source of light...possibly a row of oil lamps since another word derived from the same root means oil...although in this case i would wonder about the danger of fire inside the ark...especially with flammable pitch coating everything...

another possibility is some kind of 'pinnacle' type structure in keeping with the concept of 'mounting' to a high point...this could refer to a type of high stem on the bow of the ark...which answers in genesis has suggested as a feature of the ark that might have helped the ark to stay oriented into the wind and may have inspired similar bow stems in later ancient ships...

a moon pool in another possibility that has been suggested...which answers in genesis might also be including in the design for their 'ark encounter' attraction... a moon pool could add stability to the ark and possibly allow for wave power to be channeled into ventilating the ark... however it seems to me that a moon pool that is large enough to be effective would also severely decrease the amount of usable space inside the ark...and identifying the 'tsohar' as a moon pool appears to be the least etymologically plausible of all the interpretations...

one more solution that i personally find very intriguing is the possibility that it was a calcite 'sunstone' crystal mounted in the roof of the ark... there is strong evidence that the vikings had these and used them to determine the position of the sun from the distribution of ambient light in the sky in cloudy conditions and even during twilight after the sun has set...the method of use takes advantage of the fact that calcite crystals produce double images...but the double image would become a single image when the crystal was held in exactly the right position relative to the sun... interestingly the 'tsaharayim' plural form of the hebrew word could be read literally as 'double light'... however there would be the question of exactly why noah would have needed a navigation device as the ark had no apparent steering...although perhaps he could have used information about the position of the sun for another reason other than navigation? it would also be possible that noah could have used calcite as a window 'glass'...but then this seems overly elaborate when there would have been simpler solutions...
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Gen 6:16a A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above -- as I looked at this my first impression was that this was an opening that had a finished covering a cubit above it. I'm not sure that the dimensions of the window were 1 cubit. To me it would serve as a vent to allow the Ark to breathe as it flexed while moving around and allow some light to be scattered underneath it all day. JMHO
 
Dan_473

Dan_473

Senior Member
#284
Mar 11, 2014
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BarlyGurl said:
I think you are missing that... in being blessed.... that is the original creation... at the fall, the consequences are SET.
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I don't think the curse that comes after the fall does away with the blessing from before the fall... if that's what you're saying...

I understand that most people will agree with you...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#285
#285
BarlyGurl said:
I realize this is a TORAH study... but we are Christians so I don't really have the capacity to study torah... to the exclusion of NT covenant revelation. Sorry if that mucks things up for anyone. :(
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actually i intended for people to reference the new testament passages or teachings that are applicable to the torah portions we are studying...

john 5:39..."You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me."
 
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elf3

Guest
#286
#286
RachelBibleStudent said:
actually i intended for people to reference the new testament passages or teachings that are applicable to the torah portions we are studying...

john 5:39..."You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me."
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When studying the Torah there is much we can learn by referencing the NT. If we were to exclude the NT in study of the OT we could miss quite a bit. I just finished a "study" on the Torah which included short "sermons" on each section and I was pleasantly surprised how often the NT was referenced in these "sermons". The same can be said about study of the NT.
 
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elf3

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#287
When reading the flood account in Genesis 6,7 and 8 we can get caught up in minor "unimportant" subjects. We need not discuss the "wndow" or the "size" of the ark. When we do this we miss the main points of the flood. I went back in my studies and listened to the "sermons" on Genesis 6,7 and 8. The pastor, pastor Soper, outlined 3 important themes in the flood account. These are all from him so I cannot say "I thought of this".

As the 3 main themes he mentions judgement, grace and faith filled obedience.

God does judge sin . His patience and longsuffering nature gives man ample time too repent. God is the one who shuts the door of the ark. One day God will bring about His final judgement on mankind.

Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord (Gen 6:8). Not because of his own merit but due to God's grace. He feared God enough to act upon a command to build a huge boat. It had never rained before but he had the faith in God too listen and obey. This is the same grace in which God has chosen us. It was God's grace not faith that saved him (Eph 2:8,9). Faith always brings with it the obligation of obedience and Noah is a great example of this>faith in action (Heb 11:7)
 
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Tintin

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#288
#288
I think the Flood account is quite clear that it was a global Flood that lasted for a very long period of time (a little over one year).

I've read many books and articles on the Great Flood. The most difficult and technical and comprehensive of these was "Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study" by John Woodmorappe. He's a professional in the fields of geology, biology and paleontology, so he's well qualified to speak about the subject.

His book is broken up into four parts:

Part 1) A Complete Inventory of the Animals and Supplies on the Ark
Part 2) Alleged Difficulties Regarding the Ark and its Cargo
Part 3) The Recovery of the Earth's Biosphere After the Flood
Part 4) The Adequacy of Single Pairs in the Repopulation of the World

This book clearly shows that while it would have been hard work for Noah and his family to build the huge ark and look after two of every kind of unclean animal and seven of every kind of clean animal, it was very do-able.
 
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elf3

Guest
#289
#289
Tintin said:
I think the Flood account is quite clear that it was a global Flood that lasted for a very long period of time (a little over one year).

I've read many books and articles on the Great Flood. The most difficult and technical and comprehensive of these was "Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study" by John Woodmorappe. He's a professional in the fields of geology, biology and paleontology, so he's well qualified to speak about the subject.

His book is broken up into four parts:

Part 1) A Complete Inventory of the Animals and Supplies on the Ark
Part 2) Alleged Difficulties Regarding the Ark and its Cargo
Part 3) The Recovery of the Earth's Biosphere After the Flood
Part 4) The Adequacy of Single Pairs in the Repopulation of the World

This book clearly shows that while it would have been hard work for Noah and his family to build the huge ark and look after two of every kind of unclean animal and seven of every kind of clean animal, it was very do-able.
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I only have one problem with this...it was God so of course it was doable. But, we miss the main point worrying about "doable" or time period or length of time or recovery or anything like that. Are we so worried about all this stuff that we miss the point God is trying too make? Look at the why not the how. I could actually care less of the time it took to build the ark or a window or how long it was. I am more worried about what God is trying to teach me through this. If we miss what God is saying then we might as well be more worried about what color the sky was. Geology, Paleontology, biology? Who cares? I am more worried about theology...the study of God. I want to know what God says not some "qualified" scientist.
 
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elf3

Guest
#290
#290
This study if the Torah should be the study of God not some scientist dude who says "yep its doable". In fact our study of any part of the Bible should be a theological study not any other "scientific" study.
 
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Tintin

Guest
#291
#291
elf3 said:
I only have one problem with this...it was God so of course it was doable. But, we miss the main point worrying about "doable" or time period or length of time or recovery or anything like that. Are we so worried about all this stuff that we miss the point God is trying too make? Look at the why not the how. I could actually care less of the time it took to build the ark or a window or how long it was. I am more worried about what God is trying to teach me through this. If we miss what God is saying then we might as well be more worried about what color the sky was. Geology, Paleontology, biology? Who cares? I am more worried about theology...the study of God. I want to know what God says not some "qualified" scientist.
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This is reason informed by revelation. Of course that's not the main point of the story, but it's important to show skeptics and many Christians, that if God's Word is historically true, that it was possible for Noah and his family to do what they did. Yes, God helped (no doubt). For the most part, He let history play itself out in a naturalistic way. Yes, always governed by His hand, but with minimal miracles. I'm not downplaying God or His message, but it's important to show an unbelieving world, that if God's Word is truth, the Christian faith can be well-reasoned. After all, the heart as understood by the Hebrews was 75% of the time referencing the godly intellect. So there's no such thing as 'just theology'. All the others are tied up in the study of God's Word.
 
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Tintin

Guest
#292
#292
elf3 said:
This study if the Torah should be the study of God not some scientist dude who says "yep its doable". In fact our study of any part of the Bible should be a theological study not any other "scientific" study.
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Biblical creationists start with the Bible and work out from there. Others work their ideas into the Bible. So yes, we should start with a theological study, based in God's Word, but we shouldn't stop there.
 
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BarlyGurl

Guest
#293
#293
elf3 said:
This study if the Torah should be the study of God not some scientist dude who says "yep its doable". In fact our study of any part of the Bible should be a theological study not any other "scientific" study.
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Yep.. that's doable :p



I just couldn't resist...sorry
 
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elf3

Guest
#294
#294
Did you know that it has been found that almost every culture has a "flood" account in written or verbally passed down? Doable? I say done!
 
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Tintin

Guest
#295
#295
elf3 said:
Did you know that it has been found that almost every culture has a "flood" account in written or verbally passed down? Doable? I say done!
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Yes, and while some of these flood accounts would reference local floods, most seem to be global in nature. That points to the historicity of early Genesis.
 
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elf3

Guest
#296
#296
Did you also know that there are reputable scientists that prove it couldn't have happened? So it comes down to this...the Holy Spirit touching the "heart" of those who hear us. There are many people that we could give absolute proof too and they would still disagree. It's the Holy Spirit, not scientists, who prove. I have personally proven this to some, both theologically and scientifically, who still disregard facts. If the Holy Spirit doesn't touch the heart then nothing we say will sway others. I am not saying to disregard this but that we need to study God for God not God for science. God created science so I am pretty sure He has proven it scientifically. If we don't know God the science will not help us. If this is going to become a "scientific" study then I cannot be part of it as I want to know God not science.
 
Dan_473

Dan_473

Senior Member
#298
Mar 11, 2014
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#298
elf3 said:
This study if the Torah should be the study of God not some scientist dude who says "yep its doable". In fact our study of any part of the Bible should be a theological study not any other "scientific" study.
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many people agree with what you're saying there...

for me, I believe God wants us to bring all of who we are to the study of the scriptures... including what we know (and what we only think we know)
 
Billyd

Billyd

Senior Member
#300
May 8, 2014
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I taught a group of 3rd to 5th grade boys Bible study a few years ago. We had spent a few weeks studying Noah and the flood. I was wrapping up the lesson and ask them what the most important lesson of the study was. One of the boy's replied without hesitation "We better not make God mad at us". As I look back, after all the verse by verse study that I have done, an 8 year old summed the story in 8 words.
 
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