Truth you never heard...

[Jason1975]

If i said to you... your father beat me up when we were kids... and so now.. you are going to be branded so everyone knows your dad is a bully... how is that right?

And people believe that they are born with sin upon them... and that sin was placed there by Adam... and so they believe God holds that sin against them... because it seperates us from the place we would most like to be... with our Heavenly Father.

We aren't seperated from God because of Adam's transgression... we are seperated because of our own sin.

God only holds us accountable for our own sins... not Adam's.

 

[Depleted]

I consider being seperate from God a bad thing... something I would not choose... and for the actions of someone else? ... anyone that ponders the character of God can know that He would not punish us for the actions of others.

Sin is a choice... not an inherited trait.

When we know good from evil and then choose evil... that is a sin.

This means that children that don't yet know good and evil are innocent (without sin) and only become sinful after being corrupted by the world.

One of two choices your left with -- either Jesus lied or you do.
John 3:[FONT=&quot]19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[Johnny_B]

Let's start with Romans 3:4 “Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: “That You may be justified in Your words, and may overcome when You are judged.”

1. God does not punish anyone for the sins of another.

Romans 3:22d-23 “For there is no difference; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

This means any church that preaches all are born with "the sin of Adam" upon them, is preaching a falsehood... because sin seperate us from God... and that "inherited" separation is a type of punishment.

Romans 5:12-14 “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.”

2. God doesn't punish the innocent.

The things you do without knowledge of right and wrong are done in innocence. So, when Adam and Eve bit the apple from "the tree of knowledge of good and evil"... they didn't yet know what good or evil was. Thos means they bit the apple in innocense. Something God does not punish.

Romans 3:19, 22d-23 “Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.....

22dFor there is no difference; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

3. Being forced to leave the garden was not a punishment... it was a blessing.

Genesis 3:16-19, 22-24 “To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be contrary to your husband,but he shall rule over you.


17And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; 18thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return…..


22Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” 23therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. [SUB]24[/SUB]He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.”

God created us that we might find joy... and all things must come in opposition or joy cannot be found: if you've never known hunger you can't be grateful or appreciate food; if you've never known cold you won't find joy in warmth; if every sunset is the same... "ho hum... the sun is going down."

Genesis 2:15-16 “The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. 16And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Being forced out of the garden was actually God saying, "I want you to find joy. I want you to appreciate the fruits of your own labor, and the blessing if filling a grumbling stomach. I want you to know the joys of both of you leaving one to another on cold nights to find warmth. I want you to feel the sun of your face after a hard rain so you can appreciate the better times. I want you to know a a beautiful sunset from any other... SO.. you can't stay here in the garden... because no joy can be known without also knowing suffering."

Refer to Genesis 3:16-19, 22-23 and the words pain, rule, cursed, thorns, thistles, dust, sweat and work.

Genesis 2:4-6 “This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; 6but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.”

Genesis 7:4 “For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.”

4. God does not set people up for failure.

If this is true, what you say next cannot be ture

This means, when God told Adam and Eve to multiply and replenishthe earth... He also wanted them to teach their children up in the ways of righteousness... and warn them of evil. This means Adam and Eve need to have the knowledge of good and evil in order to be successful parents... and it was actually in Eve's wisdom that she realized this.

Where does the Lord tell Adam and Eve this? This would make 4 and the above untrue. Genesis 2:15-17 “The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. 16And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

And because God doesn't set us up for failure... He didn't allow us to follow Adam and Eve into this world until they gained the knowledge they needed. ... if they didn't eat that apple.. we'd still be waiting for them to bite it.

Genesis 1:27-28 “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

5. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.

He is the way back to Heavenly Father (no one may come before the Father except through Jesus Christ)... and Jesus is 100% of the truth... and He is life eternal.

We also no that if any should deny Jesus... He will deny them before the Father.

John 14:6 “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”


Matthew 10:32-33 “So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.”

So... if you deny these truths... even if they only make up 1% of the entire truth of Jesus... then He will deny you to that same extent... because denying truth means denying Jesus.

99% truth with 1% lie is a lie no matter how you slice it. But your's make no sense, 99% lie with 1% true is still a lie just with mre non-sense.

This also means that if tou attend a church that refutes these simple truths... that church is not of God. -- there may be much good in that church... but it is teaching up to one day be denied 1% of the way back to Heavenly Father... and that means that Satan loves the church you go to.

A simple truth that is 99% lie by your own admisson, why would I want to learn 1% of how to get the the Father when my Church teaches 100% on how to go to the Father by Jesus. Here's where your 99% comes from. John 8:44-45 “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.”

There's only one church that teaches these truths... look for it... and rely only on the Holy Ghost for your guidance to it.

II Peter 1:19-21 “And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”

That church will always be demonized by others... but do you have faith to enter it... accept it... and desire enough to be part of it?

There are so many more truths to uncover... but for now these should suffice. And if it be wisdom in God that you should read these things... having a pure and sincere intent to know the truth...and asking God... having faith in Jesus Christ... the truth of these things will be made manifest unto you.

John 17:17 “Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.”

I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ.. amen.

John 8:31b-32, 36 “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free…..36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.”

 

[Noose]

Adam was punished for Eve's sin. Eve was the one who was deceived yet it is said that Sin and hence death came into the world on the account of Adam and not Eve- do you know why? Coz Adam (being the husband) had authority/dominion over Eve.

In the same manner, God (Jesus) who has dominion/authority over human kind, takes punishment for sins on behalf of the church (bride/us). If we are to pay for sins, then we would die eternally (hell).

Sin is not what you think it is, it is a spirit(mind) that affects every person-kind and entered the world through Adam. There's a proof to this:

Do you feel ashamed when naked or you can comfortably walk those streets while naked? If you feel ashamed, know that that's one of the effects Adam and Eve felt when Adam ate the forbidden fruit.

 

[graceNpeace]

Adam was punished for Eve's sin. Eve was the one who was deceived yet it is said that Sin and hence death came into the world on the account of Adam and not Eve- do you know why? Coz Adam (being the husband) had authority/dominion over Eve.

In the same manner, God (Jesus) who has dominion/authority over human kind, takes punishment for sins on behalf of the church (bride/us). If we are to pay for sins, then we would die eternally (hell).

Sin is not what you think it is, it is a spirit(mind) that affects every person-kind and entered the world through Adam. There's a proof to this:

Do you feel ashamed when naked or you can comfortably walk those streets while naked? If you feel ashamed, know that that's one of the effects Adam and Eve felt when Adam ate the forbidden fruit.

Really!!??!!!!!
You need to go back and read Genesis chapter 3 a lot more carefully...
You are accusing God of injustice here....since God is NOT unjust it is clear that your interpretation has a problem...

 

[Noose]

Really!!??!!!!!
You need to go back and read Genesis chapter 3 a lot more carefully...
You are accusing God of injustice here....since God is NOT unjust it is clear that your interpretation has a problem...

I have Paul on my side, who's on your's ?

1 Tim 2:11A woman[SUP]a[/SUP] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[SUP]b[/SUP] she must be quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[SUP]c[/SUP] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Eph 5:21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.23For the husband is head of the wife, just as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior.

 

[trofimus]

1. God does not punish anyone for the sins of another.

I agree.
But sinful nature we inherit from Adam and which leads us to our own sins does not mean we are being punished for Adam´s specific sin.

The doctrine of eternal death of for example children who did not do anything good or evil just based on their sinful nature is questionable.

2. God doesn't punish the innocent.

The title is true. Your application of it to Adam´s disobedience of God is not, IMHO.

3. Being forced to leave the garden was not a punishment... it was a blessing.

This is one of things where we can see two layers. It was a punishment, but it brought greater good. So it will be a blessing for us in the end.

4. God does not set people up for failure.

Hm.. OK. It could be discussed in various contexts and the result will probably differ.

5. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.

Nothing wrong on that.

I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ.. amen.

You say these things in your name, do not usurp any additional authority for your post, you are on the same level as we are.

 

[graceNpeace]

I have Paul on my side, who's on your's ?

1 Tim 2:11A woman[SUP]a[/SUP] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[SUP]b[/SUP] she must be quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[SUP]c[/SUP] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Eph 5:21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22Wives,submit toyourhusbandsasto theLord.23For the husband is head of the wife, just as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior.

Are you really this dense - just go and read Genesis chapter 3...
You may fancy yourself as a great debater but your theological knowledge sucks!

Adam sinned, and he was judged for HIS sin, not his wife's...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

For as in adam ALL DIE, even so, in Christ shall all be made alive

Is it vindictive for God to put us all under the penalty of sin because adam sinned? No, it is Gods perfect plan. For if God puts us all under the sin of adam, God can die for us all. And offer eternal life to everyone by placing them under the righteousness of Christ.

if God did not do this, We would all be under our own resources. And would suffer our own fate if we sinned.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Adam was punished for Eve's sin. Eve was the one who was deceived yet it is said that Sin and hence death came into the world on the account of Adam and not Eve- do you know why? Coz Adam (being the husband) had authority/dominion over Eve.

In the same manner, God (Jesus) who has dominion/authority over human kind, takes punishment for sins on behalf of the church (bride/us). If we are to pay for sins, then we would die eternally (hell).

Sin is not what you think it is, it is a spirit(mind) that affects every person-kind and entered the world through Adam. There's a proof to this:

Do you feel ashamed when naked or you can comfortably walk those streets while naked? If you feel ashamed, know that that's one of the effects Adam and Eve felt when Adam ate the forbidden fruit.

You need to study,

Eve was tricked, Adam KNEW what he was doing. Although Eve still committed sin (being tricked is no excuse) Adam still willfully chose to disobey God knowing full well what he was doing. Then he blamed eve afterwards (proving he was spiritually dead)

 

[Noose]

Are you really this dense - just go and read Genesis chapter 3...
You may fancy yourself as a great debater but your theological knowledge sucks!

Adam sinned, and he was judged for HIS sin, not his wife's...

The tone in your voice is unchristian like. Anywho, i have read Gen 3 and repeated the exercise 3 times and these are the results:

Eve was deceived and ate from the forbidden tree. She did not realize that she was naked until her husband ate of the forbidden fruit (much later- could be days or even weeks later but it was later).

The question is:
Why didn't Eve realize she was naked until when the husband ate the fruit?

Conclusion.

Wife's (Eve) sin is shown in the husband because the husband had authority over the wife.

The church's (bride) sin is put on the account of the Husband (Christ/God) because he has authority over person kind.

 

[graceNpeace]

The tone in your voice is unchristian like. Anywho, i have read Gen 3 and repeated the exercise 3 times and these are the results:

Eve was deceived and ate from the forbidden tree. She did not realize that she was naked until her husband ate of the forbidden fruit (much later- could be days or even weeks later but it was later).

The question is:
Why didn't Eve realize she was naked until when the husband ate the fruit?

Conclusion.

Wife's (Eve) sin is shown in the husband because the husband had authority over the wife.

The church's (bride) sin is put on the account of the Husband (Christ/God) because he has authority over person kind.

Did Adam sin or did he not?

 

[posthuman]

turtles all the way down, haha

Jesus was born of a virgin to fulfil prophecy...

ok, why was this prophesied then?

 

[Noose]

Did Adam sin or did he not?

Did Adam sin? Yes- everyone has sinned but don't turn the question to support your delusions.
The question you should be asking and answering is:

Did Eve sin first? Why is it that sin came into world through Adam and not Eve?

 

[Noose]

You need to study,

Eve was tricked, Adam KNEW what he was doing. Although Eve still committed sin (being tricked is no excuse) Adam still willfully chose to disobey God knowing full well what he was doing. Then he blamed eve afterwards (proving he was spiritually dead)

And why is it said that sin came into the world on the account of Adam and never Eve?
That's the most important question.

 

[graceNpeace]

Did Adam sin? Yes- everyone has sinned but don't turn the question to support your delusions.
The question you should be asking and answering is:

Did Eve sin first? Why is it that sin came into world through Adam and not Eve?

I am not deluded - great straw-man there...
Am I deluded because I pulled you up in trying to make God unjust?
Am I deluded because I insisted that Adam was judged on the merits of his own sin?
You seem to be the one pushing the big agenda here - all EG and myself have done is to point out rather self-evident truths

As for the answers to your questions: once you have figured them out properly you will know more theology than you do currently...

 

[Noose]

I am not deluded - great straw-man there...
Am I deluded because I pulled you up in trying to make God unjust?
Am I deluded because I insisted that Adam was judged on the merits of his own sin?
You seem to be the one pushing the big agenda here - all EG and myself have done is to point out rather self-evident truths

As for the answers to your questions: once you have figured them out properly you will know more theology than you do currently...

You haven't answered my question so i guess you don't have a clue and won't burden you anymore.

Adam's misdeed were punished when God declared that he will sweat for his food and Eve's misdeed was punished when God declared that she bring forth children in pain- BUT death (wages of sin) was purely put on the account of Adam, do you know why?

I think you'll know once you have figured out properly more theology than you do currently and keep reading Genesis 3 maybe you'll understand it.

 

[graceNpeace]

You haven't answered my question so i guess you don't have a clue and won't burden you anymore.

Adam's misdeed were punished when God declared that he will sweat for his food and Eve's misdeed was punished when God declared that she bring forth children in pain- BUT death (wages of sin) was purely put on the account of Adam, do you know why?

I think you know once you have figured them out properly more theology than you do currently.

Your starting point that Adam was punished on account of the sin of his wife - and the subsequent unfolding of the false logic that followed is your answer as to why the wages of sin was put on Adam's shoulders is just wrong!

Adam was the one to whom God gave the instruction regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, NOT his wife.
Adam's wife sinned on her own account, however Adam sinned as the representative of humanity, the one to whom the instruction was DIRECTLY given. Adam's sin was twofold - clearly whatever he told his wife about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not sufficient to allow his wife to deal with Satan's deception. In addition, Adam's sin was with full knowledge - he had been the direct recipient of the instruction from God.
As a result, the sin nature (the knowledge of good and evil) which Adam acquired as a result of his sin has been inherited by ALL mankind, as has been the penalty - death.

 

[becc]

1. God does not punish anyone for the sins of another.

This means any church that preaches all are born with "the sin of Adam" upon them, is preaching a falsehood... because sin seperate us from God... and that "inherited" separation is a type of punishment.

2. God doesn't punish the innocent.

The things you do without knowledge of right and wrong are done in innocence. So, when Adam and Eve bit the apple from "the tree of knowledge of good and evil"... they didn't yet know what good or evil was. Thos means they bit the apple in innocense. Something God does not punish.

3. Being forced to leave the garden was not a punishment... it was a blessing.

God created us that we might find joy... and all things must come in opposition or joy cannot be found: if you've never known hunger you can't be grateful or appreciate food; if you've never known cold you won't find joy in warmth; if every sunset is the same... "ho hum... the sun is going down."

Being forced out of the garden was actually God saying, "I want you to find joy. I want you to appreciate the fruits of your own labor, and the blessing if filling a grumbling stomach. I want you to know the joys of both of you leaving one to another on cold nights to find warmth. I want you to feel the sun of your face after a hard rain so you can appreciate the better times. I want you to know a a beautiful sunset from any other... SO.. you can't stay here in the garden... because no joy can be known without also knowing suffering."

4. God does not set people up for failure.

This means, when God told Adam and Eve to multiply and replenish the earth... He also wanted them to teach their children up in the ways of righteousness... and warn them of evil. This means Adam and Eve need to have the knowledge of good and evil in order to be successful parents... and it was actually in Eve's wisdom that she realized this.

And because God doesn't set us up for failure... He didn't allow us to follow Adam and Eve into this world until they gained the knowledge they needed. ... if they didn't eat that apple.. we'd still be waiting for them to bite it.

5. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.

He is the way back to Heavenly Father (no one may come before the Father except through Jesus Christ)... and Jesus is 100% of the truth... and He is life eternal.

We also no that if any should deny Jesus... He will deny them before the Father.

So... if you deny these truths... even if they only make up 1% of the entire truth of Jesus... then He will deny you to that same extent... because denying truth means denying Jesus.

This also means that if tou attend a church that refutes these simple truths... that church is not of God. -- there may be much good in that church... but it is teaching up to one day be denied 1% of the way back to Heavenly Father... and that means that Satan loves the church you go to.

There's only one church that teaches these truths... look for it... and rely only on the Holy Ghost for your guidance to it.

That church will always be demonized by others... but do you have faith to enter it... accept it... and desire enough to be part of it?

There are so many more truths to uncover... but for now these should suffice. And if it be wisdom in God that you should read these things... having a pure and sincere intent to know the truth...and asking God... having faith in Jesus Christ... the truth of these things will be made manifest unto you.

I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ.. amen.

Reply to no. 1.... if we take the examples of the isrealites, they were never punished for the sin of adam, the punishment they received was their own transgression but we discuss earthly death which is the 1st death as a punishment from adamic disobedience.
For the 2nd..... God didn't punish adam and eve for biting the apple... he punished them for disobedience.
The 3rd..... it wasn't a blessing.... more like a learning processs
4th... if eve hadn't eaten of the apple there would have been no evil to warn their children of
And your accusations of all church means no church except the church you are advertising is of God and that all of the world except members of your church are in the truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The tone in your voice is unchristian like. Anywho, i have read Gen 3 and repeated the exercise 3 times and these are the results:

Eve was deceived and ate from the forbidden tree. She did not realize that she was naked until her husband ate of the forbidden fruit (much later- could be days or even weeks later but it was later).

The question is:
Why didn't Eve realize she was naked until when the husband ate the fruit?

Conclusion.

Wife's (Eve) sin is shown in the husband because the husband had authority over the wife.

The church's (bride) sin is put on the account of the Husband (Christ/God) because he has authority over person kind.

Faulty conclusion based on faulty logic

Adam witnessed eve sin, and came right in after her, it was not until they both had sinned, and reallised what had happened that they BOTH realized they were naked.