Understanding the End of Days
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Hello Blade
Firstly I did believe in the Pre Trib Rapture at one point and like many people back in the 70s devoured Hal Lyndsey.s Late Great Planet Earth in the same way people have done with the Left Behind series.
Unlike Preterests I do not think the second coming came in AD70 but I do recognise that the OT system and Temple worship was destroyed then as Jesus predicted it would. Any future revival before the second coming will be Satanic in origin.
I have never denied the resurrection and transformation mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 it does mention a rapture but not a Pre Tribulation one. My belief is closer to the Pre Wrath position than anything else. I believe that there is only one second coming and one rapture that will take place at the same time. There is no mention anywhere in Revelation or Pauls letters that believers go anywhere for seven years. Paul says we meet Christ in the air. He also tells the Thessalonians that Christ will bring with him those who have fallen asleep and in Acts we are told that Christ will remain in heaven until the consummation of all things not that he makes a trial run first similar to the Apollo Moon missions.
The Ten Virgin Parable has one thing in common with most of the parables. Jesus uses everyday people and events that his hearers are familiar with in his teaching. They include people sowing seed, fishermen and weddings. In the Virgin Parable five of them have no oil which means they have no light. In other words they are not saved. Suddenly they realise the truth but Its too late. The Parable is about having the Holy Spirit the source of light. Its about whether you are saved or not at Christs coming not how holy you are. The Pre Trib belief is that there is a separate group called 'The tribulation saints' that are supposed to be saved during the tribulation after everyone else is raptured. This is another false teaching. Paul speaks about those in the light and those in darkness he goes of to say that Christ comes as a thief there will be sudden destruction and that there will be no escape this is in stark contrast to a silent secret rapture that so many Pre Trib pundits predict. Jesus speaks of the days of Noah. He said people were eating drinking and getting married untll they were swept away.
He goes on to say some will be taken and some left. In the flood it was the wicked that were taken and Noah was left with his family.
Firstly I did believe in the Pre Trib Rapture at one point and like many people back in the 70s devoured Hal Lyndsey.s Late Great Planet Earth in the same way people have done with the Left Behind series.
Unlike Preterests I do not think the second coming came in AD70 but I do recognise that the OT system and Temple worship was destroyed then as Jesus predicted it would. Any future revival before the second coming will be Satanic in origin.
I have never denied the resurrection and transformation mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 it does mention a rapture but not a Pre Tribulation one. My belief is closer to the Pre Wrath position than anything else. I believe that there is only one second coming and one rapture that will take place at the same time. There is no mention anywhere in Revelation or Pauls letters that believers go anywhere for seven years. Paul says we meet Christ in the air. He also tells the Thessalonians that Christ will bring with him those who have fallen asleep and in Acts we are told that Christ will remain in heaven until the consummation of all things not that he makes a trial run first similar to the Apollo Moon missions.
The Ten Virgin Parable has one thing in common with most of the parables. Jesus uses everyday people and events that his hearers are familiar with in his teaching. They include people sowing seed, fishermen and weddings. In the Virgin Parable five of them have no oil which means they have no light. In other words they are not saved. Suddenly they realise the truth but Its too late. The Parable is about having the Holy Spirit the source of light. Its about whether you are saved or not at Christs coming not how holy you are. The Pre Trib belief is that there is a separate group called 'The tribulation saints' that are supposed to be saved during the tribulation after everyone else is raptured. This is another false teaching. Paul speaks about those in the light and those in darkness he goes of to say that Christ comes as a thief there will be sudden destruction and that there will be no escape this is in stark contrast to a silent secret rapture that so many Pre Trib pundits predict. Jesus speaks of the days of Noah. He said people were eating drinking and getting married untll they were swept away.
He goes on to say some will be taken and some left. In the flood it was the wicked that were taken and Noah was left with his family.
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Hello Tanakh,
As I'm sure that you know, the pre Trib gathering of the church should not and cannot be based upon any writers teachings, Hal Lindsey, Left behind or otherwise. I never arrived at my belief that the gathering of the church would take place because of their's or anyone else's teachings.
As I have posted so many times here, only 69 of the seven year periods that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem have been fulfilled. At the end of the 69th seven the Messiah was cut off, which was Christ crucified. At that time God paused that last seven years and began to build the church, which is still in progress. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear in the atmosphere and catch up the church, removing us prior to the on-set of his wrath. Therefore, God has unfinished business with Israel in fulfillment of that last seven years, as well as other elements that need to be fulfilled.
Here is a question for you: Jesus said "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." When one becomes a believer in Christ, he/she becomes the bride of Christ, is credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. The wrath of God sits in between right now and the time that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. We have scripture stating that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that he will keep us from the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole earth.
Here is the question: Taking all of this into consideration, do you actually think that the Lord is going to leave his bride, the church, those credited with righteousness and those reconciled, on the earth to go through his wrath which will affect the entire earth?
Do you understand that God does not punish the righteous with the wicked?
Do you understand that the majority of the population of the earth is going to be decimated and the nations dismantled via those plagues of wrath?
The pre wrath position, for those who don't know, is the belief that the seals 1 thru 6 are not apart of God's wrath, but that it begins after the announcement at the opening of the 6th seal which says "the great day of their wrath has come and who can stand." Because of this and not understanding the Greek Aorist, they conclude that the wrath of God begins after the announcement, which is in error. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments belong together as a set collectively representing God's wrath. In support of this, it is the Lamb/Jesus who is the One opening the seals. He's the One who is said to trample the wine press of the wrath of God Almighty, which is accomplished via the seals, trumpets and bowl Judgments.
This is one of the major problems with expositors. When Jesus comes to gather the church as promised in John 14:1-3 and described in detail in 1 Thes.4:13-18, He is not returning to the earth at that time, but only gathering the church to remove them prior to the beginning of his wrath. His actual return to the earth takes place after His wrath has been poured out upon the earth, where shortly after that 7th bowl has been poured out, He will return to the earth. Otherwise, if that wrath was allowed to go on any longer there would be no one left alive on planet earth, just as He proclaimed in Matt.24:22.
Oh, but it is mentioned! The key to understanding the chronological order of the events of Revelation is found in Rev.1:19 when John was told to write:
What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 thru Rev.1:19
What is now = Represented by the letters to the churches, which represents the entire church period.
What will take place later = The events that take place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period
Rev.4:1 is a prophet allusion to the gathering of the church where the Lord with a voice that sounds like a trumpet says, "come up here." In further support that the church is gathered here, you will not find the word Ekklesia translated church anywhere after the end of chapter 3. Yet prior to that, the word church is used 18 times and then abruptly ceases to appear in the narrative of God's wrath. The "what must take place later" is the fulfillment of "come up here and I will show you 'what must take place after this,' i.e. after the church period.
In addition, the seven years is divided into two 3 1/2 year periods. These are referred to in Revelation as 1260 days, 42 months and a time, times and a half a time, covering the entire seven years.
The oil in the parable of the ten virgins represents watchful readiness. If you will notice at the end of the parable Jesus then says, "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour." Those with oil are watching for the Lord, keeping themselves ready for when the Bridegroom appears. Those without oil are those who will have merged back into the world, living according to the sinful nature and are not watching or paying attention (no oil) and will not be in a right state when the bridegroom appears. This is synonymous with what he told his disciples and all believers in Luke 21:
"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap.For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth.Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
This is not a false teaching, you just have not understood nor accepted it. The fact is that the "great tribulation saints" are introduced right in scripture:
"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands."
"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
"I answered, “Sir, you know"
Now pay attention to this next verse Tanakh.
"And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So, you have a group that come out of every tribe, nation, people and language, which would make them Gentile believers. These are those who scripture is referring to every time you see the word "Saints" within the narrative and beginning at Rev.5:8. They are never referred to as being the church.
you are correct regarding the above in that, the "one taken" is being compared to the wicked who were taken in the flood. The "one taken" is in reference to Matt.13, 24:31 and Rev.19:17, when the angels go throughout the earth and first gather the wicked and bring them back to those gathered at Armageddon where they will be killed by that double-edged sword, where the birds that the angel will have gathered in Rev.19:17 will gorge themselves on their flesh.
Here is another question for you: Who are those receiving fine linen white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb in heaven as shown in Rev.19:6-8. And who are those riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen following the Lord out of heaven as he returns to end the age as found in Rev.19:14?
As I'm sure that you know, the pre Trib gathering of the church should not and cannot be based upon any writers teachings, Hal Lindsey, Left behind or otherwise. I never arrived at my belief that the gathering of the church would take place because of their's or anyone else's teachings.
As I have posted so many times here, only 69 of the seven year periods that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem have been fulfilled. At the end of the 69th seven the Messiah was cut off, which was Christ crucified. At that time God paused that last seven years and began to build the church, which is still in progress. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear in the atmosphere and catch up the church, removing us prior to the on-set of his wrath. Therefore, God has unfinished business with Israel in fulfillment of that last seven years, as well as other elements that need to be fulfilled.
Here is a question for you: Jesus said "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." When one becomes a believer in Christ, he/she becomes the bride of Christ, is credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. The wrath of God sits in between right now and the time that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. We have scripture stating that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that he will keep us from the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole earth.
Here is the question: Taking all of this into consideration, do you actually think that the Lord is going to leave his bride, the church, those credited with righteousness and those reconciled, on the earth to go through his wrath which will affect the entire earth?
Do you understand that God does not punish the righteous with the wicked?
Do you understand that the majority of the population of the earth is going to be decimated and the nations dismantled via those plagues of wrath?
The pre wrath position, for those who don't know, is the belief that the seals 1 thru 6 are not apart of God's wrath, but that it begins after the announcement at the opening of the 6th seal which says "the great day of their wrath has come and who can stand." Because of this and not understanding the Greek Aorist, they conclude that the wrath of God begins after the announcement, which is in error. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments belong together as a set collectively representing God's wrath. In support of this, it is the Lamb/Jesus who is the One opening the seals. He's the One who is said to trample the wine press of the wrath of God Almighty, which is accomplished via the seals, trumpets and bowl Judgments.
This is one of the major problems with expositors. When Jesus comes to gather the church as promised in John 14:1-3 and described in detail in 1 Thes.4:13-18, He is not returning to the earth at that time, but only gathering the church to remove them prior to the beginning of his wrath. His actual return to the earth takes place after His wrath has been poured out upon the earth, where shortly after that 7th bowl has been poured out, He will return to the earth. Otherwise, if that wrath was allowed to go on any longer there would be no one left alive on planet earth, just as He proclaimed in Matt.24:22.
Oh, but it is mentioned! The key to understanding the chronological order of the events of Revelation is found in Rev.1:19 when John was told to write:
What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 thru Rev.1:19
What is now = Represented by the letters to the churches, which represents the entire church period.
What will take place later = The events that take place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period
Rev.4:1 is a prophet allusion to the gathering of the church where the Lord with a voice that sounds like a trumpet says, "come up here." In further support that the church is gathered here, you will not find the word Ekklesia translated church anywhere after the end of chapter 3. Yet prior to that, the word church is used 18 times and then abruptly ceases to appear in the narrative of God's wrath. The "what must take place later" is the fulfillment of "come up here and I will show you 'what must take place after this,' i.e. after the church period.
In addition, the seven years is divided into two 3 1/2 year periods. These are referred to in Revelation as 1260 days, 42 months and a time, times and a half a time, covering the entire seven years.
The oil in the parable of the ten virgins represents watchful readiness. If you will notice at the end of the parable Jesus then says, "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour." Those with oil are watching for the Lord, keeping themselves ready for when the Bridegroom appears. Those without oil are those who will have merged back into the world, living according to the sinful nature and are not watching or paying attention (no oil) and will not be in a right state when the bridegroom appears. This is synonymous with what he told his disciples and all believers in Luke 21:
"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap.For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth.Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
This is not a false teaching, you just have not understood nor accepted it. The fact is that the "great tribulation saints" are introduced right in scripture:
"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands."
"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
"I answered, “Sir, you know"
Now pay attention to this next verse Tanakh.
"And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So, you have a group that come out of every tribe, nation, people and language, which would make them Gentile believers. These are those who scripture is referring to every time you see the word "Saints" within the narrative and beginning at Rev.5:8. They are never referred to as being the church.
you are correct regarding the above in that, the "one taken" is being compared to the wicked who were taken in the flood. The "one taken" is in reference to Matt.13, 24:31 and Rev.19:17, when the angels go throughout the earth and first gather the wicked and bring them back to those gathered at Armageddon where they will be killed by that double-edged sword, where the birds that the angel will have gathered in Rev.19:17 will gorge themselves on their flesh.
Here is another question for you: Who are those receiving fine linen white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb in heaven as shown in Rev.19:6-8. And who are those riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen following the Lord out of heaven as he returns to end the age as found in Rev.19:14?
Hello Ahwatukee
The wrath of God you speak of does not cover the whole of the period people think of as the tribulation. The wrath of God is unleashed the on or at the start of the seven trumpets and coincides with the second coming as does the Rapture. Prior to that persecution of Believers is carried out by the Antichrist. The people coming out of the tribulation are dead believers and part of the persecuted Church not some other group As you have mentioned so many times the wrath is directed at none believers who worship the beast and his image. Paul says that Christ will appear as a thief in the night and sudden destruction will overtake them and they will not escape. In plain English Sudden Destruction speaks for itself. If a persons house collapses in an Earthquake for example it doesn't take seven years to happen in slow motion like a Bruce Lee Movie. Jesus said that in the days of Noah people were going about their daily business when the flood came. When Christ returns people will be doing the same under the rule of the Antichrist. Unbelievers will accept Antichrist as the Messiah and for them life will continue as normal.
The Antichrist will rule from an Apostate Jerusalem called Egypt and Sodom in Revelation. I believe it is also called Babylon the Great by comparing OT references regarding the City and Israel as a whole.but that is my view.
When Christ returns he will be accompanied by those Paul calls those who are asleep. They will receive immortal bodies and those believers who are still alive will meet him in the air. They will accompany him to earth and arrive with him at the mount of Olives. A third of the Jewish population will accept him as the Messiah and he together with his heavenly army will defeat
the Antichrist at Armaggedon
After this the Millennium begins. A new earthly Jerusalem and a Temple will be rebuilt in accordance with the details in Ezekiel and will last until a new Heaven and Earth are created.
The wrath of God you speak of does not cover the whole of the period people think of as the tribulation. The wrath of God is unleashed the on or at the start of the seven trumpets and coincides with the second coming as does the Rapture. Prior to that persecution of Believers is carried out by the Antichrist. The people coming out of the tribulation are dead believers and part of the persecuted Church not some other group As you have mentioned so many times the wrath is directed at none believers who worship the beast and his image. Paul says that Christ will appear as a thief in the night and sudden destruction will overtake them and they will not escape. In plain English Sudden Destruction speaks for itself. If a persons house collapses in an Earthquake for example it doesn't take seven years to happen in slow motion like a Bruce Lee Movie. Jesus said that in the days of Noah people were going about their daily business when the flood came. When Christ returns people will be doing the same under the rule of the Antichrist. Unbelievers will accept Antichrist as the Messiah and for them life will continue as normal.
The Antichrist will rule from an Apostate Jerusalem called Egypt and Sodom in Revelation. I believe it is also called Babylon the Great by comparing OT references regarding the City and Israel as a whole.but that is my view.
When Christ returns he will be accompanied by those Paul calls those who are asleep. They will receive immortal bodies and those believers who are still alive will meet him in the air. They will accompany him to earth and arrive with him at the mount of Olives. A third of the Jewish population will accept him as the Messiah and he together with his heavenly army will defeat
the Antichrist at Armaggedon
After this the Millennium begins. A new earthly Jerusalem and a Temple will be rebuilt in accordance with the details in Ezekiel and will last until a new Heaven and Earth are created.
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The Amil position seems to work out the best.There will be no literal rein in respect to what we do see, on the corrupted earth. We walk by faith.
He has been building that church as his eternal bride from the foundation of the world.He had favor on Abel but not Cain .That marked Cain as a unbeliever. His blood does not cry out from the ground proclaiming the gospel .
Yes that hour of trial in the twinkling of the eye will be over as the last day, the day of the Lord comes .And it will be judgement (second death) for those who know not Christ, those who have not been given a new spirit that will rise again , and the same day all saints in heaven and those reigning on earth will be changed forever. The second and final resurrection and juidgment.
Again one twinkling of the eye both verses below will be fulfilled
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Those who names were written in the lambs book of life from the foundation of the world that were chosen before any good or evil like Jacob, or David (born again believers) will not come into judgement.
The wrath spoken of is the second death. There is no pre-wrath as if there was two judgement days and God would reincarnate those bodies giving a new spirit to stand trial .There is no life after death for the unbeliever. No
It is a imputed righteousness .Christ' work of faith not our our labor
The wrath that is being revealed affects the entire earth. The Spirit of Christ that dwelt temporally in the flesh will come on the last day. The veil will not be set up again .The time of refomation is over.
No condemnation ,Christ has in affect sat in our judgement seat and was declared guilty because of our sin .No double jeopardy.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now "no condemnation" to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The idea of judging a dead body with no spirit life by the living was tried in the ninth century and the father of lies was found out no heart beat, no breath of life
Pope Formosus was Pope from 6 October 891 to his death in 896. His brief reign as Pope was troubled, and his remains were exhumed and put on trial in the Cadaver Synod. He was pronounced guilty .I would pronounce him dead with no remnant of spirit life. Not even a breath .
He has been building that church as his eternal bride from the foundation of the world.He had favor on Abel but not Cain .That marked Cain as a unbeliever. His blood does not cry out from the ground proclaiming the gospel .
Yes that hour of trial in the twinkling of the eye will be over as the last day, the day of the Lord comes .And it will be judgement (second death) for those who know not Christ, those who have not been given a new spirit that will rise again , and the same day all saints in heaven and those reigning on earth will be changed forever. The second and final resurrection and juidgment.
Again one twinkling of the eye both verses below will be fulfilled
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Those who names were written in the lambs book of life from the foundation of the world that were chosen before any good or evil like Jacob, or David (born again believers) will not come into judgement.
The wrath spoken of is the second death. There is no pre-wrath as if there was two judgement days and God would reincarnate those bodies giving a new spirit to stand trial .There is no life after death for the unbeliever. No
It is a imputed righteousness .Christ' work of faith not our our labor
The wrath that is being revealed affects the entire earth. The Spirit of Christ that dwelt temporally in the flesh will come on the last day. The veil will not be set up again .The time of refomation is over.
No condemnation ,Christ has in affect sat in our judgement seat and was declared guilty because of our sin .No double jeopardy.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now "no condemnation" to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The idea of judging a dead body with no spirit life by the living was tried in the ninth century and the father of lies was found out no heart beat, no breath of life
Pope Formosus was Pope from 6 October 891 to his death in 896. His brief reign as Pope was troubled, and his remains were exhumed and put on trial in the Cadaver Synod. He was pronounced guilty .I would pronounce him dead with no remnant of spirit life. Not even a breath .
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This is exactly what I told you the problem was in the last post. The words "has come" is in the aorist, which is referring to the entire wrath of God i.e. the wrath that takes place prior to the announcement and all of the wrath via the trumpets and bowls which take place after the announcement. It is this lake of understanding that causes the separation of the seals as not belonging to God's wrath. This is the error which you and others will listen to.
Everything that takes place during that seven years, including the reign of the beast is included as belonging to God's wrath. There is not wrath of Satan or man and then God's wrath. Believers from the on-set of the church have been exposed to the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have, which come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. Once the church is removed, the wrath of God will be in operation and everything that happens during that time period is considered as belonging to God's wrath. Until you and others stop with the apologetic's you will not understand.
I have shown you time and time again this group being referred to as "the great tribulation saints." Please show us where those saints who come out of the great tribulation are referred to as the church or show us anywhere the word church is used anywhere after the end of chapter 3. This is information that needs to be considered in your exegesis, which you are ignoring. The very fact that the elder is introducing them and asking John who they are demonstrates that they are not the church, which he was previously told to write to. That fact is that you cannot show me anywhere this group is referred to as the church, but I can show you where they are referred to as the great tribulation saints.
"Sudden destruction" does not mean that everything comes to an end in one moment, but it refers to the on-set of God's wrath, like birth pains. When a woman is having birth pains, her pains start of mild and far apart, growing in intensity and closer together. Sudden destruction is referring to the state of the entire time of God's wrath.
You are correct in that from the middle of the seven years when the antichrist sets up the abomination, he will stand in the temple proclaiming himself to be God. But Israel cannot possibly be Babylon the Great and that because that city and its religious headquarters is destroyed during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. In addition, after Satan is released from the Abyss at the end of the thousand years, he gathers those people referred to as Gog and Magog and they surround the camp of God's people, the city that he loves, which demonstrates that Jerusalem will be inhabited during the millennial period. Yet, Babylon the Great is destroyed during that last seven years so that no one will ever be able to inhabit it again. So you have a big problem there.
Immediately after the dead in Christ are raised, the living in Christ are changed and caught up as well. According to your view, it would put the living believers through the entire wrath of God and that is the problem.
Church period?
He works the same (by faith the unseen) no matter which kind of dispensation men lay on him.
You would have to show a period of time even a twinkling of the eye when God did not purify the heart of man through a work of His faith in respect to that labor of His love. ? It worked in Abel's heart softening it as it worked in Noah and any born again believer. If any man has not the Spirit of Christ the eternal Spirit of God.then neither do they belong to Him
And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. Gen 4:4
1Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.Act 15:8 (The work of Christ's faith not of their own selves.)
Will you make the faith of God without effect to effect is to work out. It would seem to be with what a despensationalist must do in order to take the church out of the picture .(remove that which has no form to begin with )
He works the same (by faith the unseen) no matter which kind of dispensation men lay on him.
You would have to show a period of time even a twinkling of the eye when God did not purify the heart of man through a work of His faith in respect to that labor of His love. ? It worked in Abel's heart softening it as it worked in Noah and any born again believer. If any man has not the Spirit of Christ the eternal Spirit of God.then neither do they belong to Him
And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. Gen 4:4
1Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.Act 15:8 (The work of Christ's faith not of their own selves.)
Will you make the faith of God without effect to effect is to work out. It would seem to be with what a despensationalist must do in order to take the church out of the picture .(remove that which has no form to begin with )
The image Nebuchadnezzar saw in his dream will stand upon the earth at the time of the end.
There is more than one aspect concerning the image.
1. The image illustrates the four former kingdoms that exist before the image stands at the time of the end.
2. The image will stand as one kingdom on earth, bearing the image of one man, immediately before Jesus comes.
That this is true is shown by Nebuchanezzar's attempt to cause the whole world to worship his gold bust sitting on a pillar on the plain of Dura. For we see that there existed no kingdoms od silver, brass and iron upon which to place the head of gold.
Thus we see that the four former kingdoms of gold, silver, brass and iron were required to come and go before the completed image can stand in the latter days.
By each kingdom we are taught to discern the secrets aspects of the final kingdom that Jesus shall destroy utterly when he does come.
There is more than one aspect concerning the image.
1. The image illustrates the four former kingdoms that exist before the image stands at the time of the end.
2. The image will stand as one kingdom on earth, bearing the image of one man, immediately before Jesus comes.
That this is true is shown by Nebuchanezzar's attempt to cause the whole world to worship his gold bust sitting on a pillar on the plain of Dura. For we see that there existed no kingdoms od silver, brass and iron upon which to place the head of gold.
Thus we see that the four former kingdoms of gold, silver, brass and iron were required to come and go before the completed image can stand in the latter days.
By each kingdom we are taught to discern the secrets aspects of the final kingdom that Jesus shall destroy utterly when he does come.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness
and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 1:18
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasure up unto thyself
wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment
of God;
Romans 2:5
Much more then, being now justified by his blood,
we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Romans 5:9
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past
in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and
of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath,
even as others.
Ephesians 2:3
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead,
even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1Thessalonians 1:10
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation
by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Thessalonians 5:9
These and other verses all point to a salvation in both our own
lifetime through faith; as well as a future hope for those that
are asleep in Christ Jesus.
When the wrath of God comes upon this world our escape,
our sanctuary, our salvation is not in the false teachings of
being taken out of this world ...
but rather our divine protection is of the Holy Spirit.
Just as the ten plagues came on ancient Egypt and the
children of Israel dwelling in Goshen were protected from
the increasing severity of the plagues; so it shall be again
in the last days.
The children of light, the true gospel of the Holy Spirit will
not be subject to the wrath of God.
Read Psalm 91
and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Romans 1:18
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasure up unto thyself
wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment
of God;
Romans 2:5
Much more then, being now justified by his blood,
we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Romans 5:9
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past
in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and
of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath,
even as others.
Ephesians 2:3
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead,
even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1Thessalonians 1:10
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation
by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Thessalonians 5:9
These and other verses all point to a salvation in both our own
lifetime through faith; as well as a future hope for those that
are asleep in Christ Jesus.
When the wrath of God comes upon this world our escape,
our sanctuary, our salvation is not in the false teachings of
being taken out of this world ...
but rather our divine protection is of the Holy Spirit.
Just as the ten plagues came on ancient Egypt and the
children of Israel dwelling in Goshen were protected from
the increasing severity of the plagues; so it shall be again
in the last days.
The children of light, the true gospel of the Holy Spirit will
not be subject to the wrath of God.
Read Psalm 91
The image Nebuchadnezzar saw in his dream is the image of the beast that stands at the end in opposition to Jesus Christ.
The image is metallic and consists of gold, silver, brass and iron because it is a technological image. All its metals are found in computers as structural hardware.
They are all conductive metals.
This is because the final kingdom is given into the hand of the Antichrist by means of technology.
I will cover this aspect of the image of the beast first.
It helps to see what Nebuchadnezzar did when he promoted his own image at Dura.
Nebuchadnezzar had a pillar made that was six cubits by six cubits at its base and sixty cubits high upon which his gold head image sat.
Six is the number of man. And the number four always refers to the world man inhabits.
Thus, the base of the pillar signifies a man encompassing his world on every side.
The pillar is sixty cubits high to denote that by the works of man's hands, man promotes himself and lifts himself up proudly.
The machine God has given man are his hands by which ten fingers a man takes hold of his world and manipulates it to increase his power over the world.
Thus the power of the man (six) is multiplied by his technology (10) and becomes sixty which is used to promote the image of the man on earth.
Thus the beast at the time of the end shall make use of technology to promote his own image globally.
The three Israelites Shadrack, Meshack and Abednego represent the saints that will confront and war against the Antichrist in the latter days. These three saints were caught unprepared before the king.
However, note that Daniel being representative of the wise saints was prepared and thus didn't appear before the king at Dura.
The answer the three Israelites gave the king when they refused to worship the image of the beast is the response the saints who aren't so wise as Daniel must rely on at the time of the end. And many saints shall be killed but their testimony will glorify Jesus Christ and many souls shall be harvested unto God because of their exemplary faith.
The image is metallic and consists of gold, silver, brass and iron because it is a technological image. All its metals are found in computers as structural hardware.
They are all conductive metals.
This is because the final kingdom is given into the hand of the Antichrist by means of technology.
I will cover this aspect of the image of the beast first.
It helps to see what Nebuchadnezzar did when he promoted his own image at Dura.
Nebuchadnezzar had a pillar made that was six cubits by six cubits at its base and sixty cubits high upon which his gold head image sat.
Six is the number of man. And the number four always refers to the world man inhabits.
Thus, the base of the pillar signifies a man encompassing his world on every side.
The pillar is sixty cubits high to denote that by the works of man's hands, man promotes himself and lifts himself up proudly.
The machine God has given man are his hands by which ten fingers a man takes hold of his world and manipulates it to increase his power over the world.
Thus the power of the man (six) is multiplied by his technology (10) and becomes sixty which is used to promote the image of the man on earth.
Thus the beast at the time of the end shall make use of technology to promote his own image globally.
The three Israelites Shadrack, Meshack and Abednego represent the saints that will confront and war against the Antichrist in the latter days. These three saints were caught unprepared before the king.
However, note that Daniel being representative of the wise saints was prepared and thus didn't appear before the king at Dura.
The answer the three Israelites gave the king when they refused to worship the image of the beast is the response the saints who aren't so wise as Daniel must rely on at the time of the end. And many saints shall be killed but their testimony will glorify Jesus Christ and many souls shall be harvested unto God because of their exemplary faith.
According to the Parable of the wheat and tares Christ sends his Angels to gather the wheat (believers) and throw the tares in the fire. It would be difficult to gather the wheat when they had already been gathered seven years earlier. You say there is no mention of the Church in Revelation after Chapter four and that John doesn't see the Church in his vision only tribulation saints. This a good point so where is the raptured church which is supposed to have arrived in heaven beforehand? According to the Angel John saw those who had come out of the tribulation. It doesnt take a genius to realise that the so called tribulation saints are not a separate group but they are the Church. Another point is that there are other letters in the NT where the word Church doesn't appear. Following your logic does this mean that there were no Churches around to read them?
Your comparison with the wrath of God and a womans birth pains falls down because the birth pains are not the birth itself'
The birth happens when the Baby appears not before. The wrath of God is the sudden destruction.
Most of your reasoning depends on your interpretation of events.
I don't buy your claim that you arrived at your position without any outside influence. Where were you when all this came about? Were you sitting in a cave like one of the Desert Fathers or for that matter on an Island like John when he received Revelation?
Your comparison with the wrath of God and a womans birth pains falls down because the birth pains are not the birth itself'
The birth happens when the Baby appears not before. The wrath of God is the sudden destruction.
Most of your reasoning depends on your interpretation of events.
I don't buy your claim that you arrived at your position without any outside influence. Where were you when all this came about? Were you sitting in a cave like one of the Desert Fathers or for that matter on an Island like John when he received Revelation?
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Gold is symbolic of things related to God. This is seen in the temple in that once in the presence of God in the holy place and the most holy place all things pertaining to it are required to be of gold.
Thus the head of gold speaks of the beast presenting himself as if he were God.
Silver speaks of image reflection and as such it shows us that closest to the beast and tightly under his control and watchful eye is global media and all global elites who desire to perfectly reflect the image of the beast to the masses below. This includes all political entities.
The brass refers to the judicial system as seen in the temple where all things pertaining to judgment are brass.
The brass shines as simular to the gold in that it reflects the law of God and his justice. But in the kingdom of the beast it reflects the self serving legal system of the Antichrist.
The iron signifies the force of military and policing functions of the beast kingdom to come.
The clay refers to the common man whose hearts are not hardened and are not reprobate. The miry clay speaks of the saints that weaken the beast at ground level. The water signifying the presence of God's word.
The ten toes reveal the kings of tbe ten sub kingdoms which the beast kingdom relies on to maintain its stance.
Note the weakness the techno controlled beast system must deal with until Jesus comes as the rock that destroys the beast kingdom completely.
It is the slippery ground the saints produce outside the confines of the beast system but inimate somewhat within the beast system.
Mountains in prophecy are nations. The mountain out of which the rock was taken is Israel.
This is the gist of it.
Thus the head of gold speaks of the beast presenting himself as if he were God.
Silver speaks of image reflection and as such it shows us that closest to the beast and tightly under his control and watchful eye is global media and all global elites who desire to perfectly reflect the image of the beast to the masses below. This includes all political entities.
The brass refers to the judicial system as seen in the temple where all things pertaining to judgment are brass.
The brass shines as simular to the gold in that it reflects the law of God and his justice. But in the kingdom of the beast it reflects the self serving legal system of the Antichrist.
The iron signifies the force of military and policing functions of the beast kingdom to come.
The clay refers to the common man whose hearts are not hardened and are not reprobate. The miry clay speaks of the saints that weaken the beast at ground level. The water signifying the presence of God's word.
The ten toes reveal the kings of tbe ten sub kingdoms which the beast kingdom relies on to maintain its stance.
Note the weakness the techno controlled beast system must deal with until Jesus comes as the rock that destroys the beast kingdom completely.
It is the slippery ground the saints produce outside the confines of the beast system but inimate somewhat within the beast system.
Mountains in prophecy are nations. The mountain out of which the rock was taken is Israel.
This is the gist of it.
It is obvious that birth pangs do no produce destruction but new life.
In truth Jesus Christ came into the world by means of the travail of the church and the kingdom of Christ shall become literal on earth due to the travail of the church.
By church I refer to all the faithful past present and future.
The tribulation of the saints is their travailing in faith to bring in the Kingdom of God before the eyes of all men.
There isn't any private interpretation allowed in understanding prophecy.
Therefore, the scriptures alone present the truth under the guidance of tbe Holy Ghost.
This also means that interpreting what isn't said is of no consequence in determining what God has said.
In truth Jesus Christ came into the world by means of the travail of the church and the kingdom of Christ shall become literal on earth due to the travail of the church.
By church I refer to all the faithful past present and future.
The tribulation of the saints is their travailing in faith to bring in the Kingdom of God before the eyes of all men.
There isn't any private interpretation allowed in understanding prophecy.
Therefore, the scriptures alone present the truth under the guidance of tbe Holy Ghost.
This also means that interpreting what isn't said is of no consequence in determining what God has said.
There are at least four major eschatological interpretations of Prophecy that I know of and variations within each of them'
I'm not sure how you would differentiate between private interpretation and guidance of the Holy Spirit. For me interpretation depends on comparing line upon line and precept upon precept. The Holy Spirit guided the NT writers and much of what they wrote is based on OT Scripture. Revelation is a case in point where about 95% of the text is based on allusions to the OT that the Holy Spirit brought to Johns mind when he wrote it.
I'm not sure how you would differentiate between private interpretation and guidance of the Holy Spirit. For me interpretation depends on comparing line upon line and precept upon precept. The Holy Spirit guided the NT writers and much of what they wrote is based on OT Scripture. Revelation is a case in point where about 95% of the text is based on allusions to the OT that the Holy Spirit brought to Johns mind when he wrote it.
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The wheat and the tares refers to those believers and non believers who will be on the earth when Christ returns to end the age. This gathering is not in reference to the gathering of the church, but those who will have made it alive until Christ returns. According to Matt.13, the weeds are collected first. After that the angels collect the wheat. Those who will be gathered will be those unbelievers, those who will have worshiped the beast, his image and received his mark. And the wheat will be those who became believers during the time of God's wrath. The ready and watching church, will have already been removed prior to the time of God's wrath.
What you need to understand, is there are different groups that will experience different events.
The church - will be removed according to the Lord's promise prior to God's wrath, because we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus already suffered it for us.
Israel - Has a decree of seventy 'sevens' sixty-nine of which have been fulfilled and therefore one 'seven' remains and will be fulfilled in conjunction with Christ's return to end the age. Unbelieving Israel will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath in fulfillment of that last seven years.
The great tribulation saints - These are those who become believers (the wheat) during the time of God's wrath and who will not love their lives so much as to shrink away from death by keeping their testimony of Jesus and by not worshiping the beast, his image and not receiving his mark. This group will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath. These are those introduced in Rev.7:9-17
The 144,000 - This will be a select group, the first fruits to God who come out of unbelieving Israel, who will most likely be preaching the good news in force. The great tribulation saints may be the result of their efforts. This group will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath.
The two witness - They will be prophesying and bringing plagues upon the earth during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. They will also be on the earth during the time of God's wrath.
Unbelievers and those who worship the beast - These people names will have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world and will worship the beast, his image and receive his mark. They will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath.
The birth pains that a woman has start of mild and far apart and get more intense and closer together as it comes time for her to give birth. It will be the same why during that last seven years. Like the birth pains of a woman, the plagues of God's wrath will become closer together and more intense as the time of Christ's return to the earth to end the age nears. As I said, "sudden destruction" does not infer immediate annihilation, but is referring to the destruction of God's wrath that will be coming upon the earth. As an example, the 5th trumpet alone is five months in duration.
The problem is incomplete exegesis on yours and others part.
What you need to understand, is there are different groups that will experience different events.
The church - will be removed according to the Lord's promise prior to God's wrath, because we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus already suffered it for us.
Israel - Has a decree of seventy 'sevens' sixty-nine of which have been fulfilled and therefore one 'seven' remains and will be fulfilled in conjunction with Christ's return to end the age. Unbelieving Israel will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath in fulfillment of that last seven years.
The great tribulation saints - These are those who become believers (the wheat) during the time of God's wrath and who will not love their lives so much as to shrink away from death by keeping their testimony of Jesus and by not worshiping the beast, his image and not receiving his mark. This group will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath. These are those introduced in Rev.7:9-17
The 144,000 - This will be a select group, the first fruits to God who come out of unbelieving Israel, who will most likely be preaching the good news in force. The great tribulation saints may be the result of their efforts. This group will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath.
The two witness - They will be prophesying and bringing plagues upon the earth during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. They will also be on the earth during the time of God's wrath.
Unbelievers and those who worship the beast - These people names will have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world and will worship the beast, his image and receive his mark. They will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath.
The birth pains that a woman has start of mild and far apart and get more intense and closer together as it comes time for her to give birth. It will be the same why during that last seven years. Like the birth pains of a woman, the plagues of God's wrath will become closer together and more intense as the time of Christ's return to the earth to end the age nears. As I said, "sudden destruction" does not infer immediate annihilation, but is referring to the destruction of God's wrath that will be coming upon the earth. As an example, the 5th trumpet alone is five months in duration.
The problem is incomplete exegesis on yours and others part.
Then sir, you, as well as others, do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath, which will come upon the whole world. There would be no place on the earth where the church to survive during that time. Making purchases to buy food, gas, pay bills, etc. will depend on receiving that mark. Anyone without it will not be able to be apart of the financial system. Also, we, the church, are not appointed to suffer wrath (any wrath) and we have a promise from the Lord that he will keep us out of that time of wrath. Therefore, the church cannot be here during God's time of wrath.
Your example above only involved Egypt and Israel and did not affect the rest of the world. However, the wrath that is coming via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and the two witnesses, will be upon and affect the whole world. There will be no where to hide. Regular life will be over. The only group that will be protected will be a remnant of Israel who, after that abomination is set up within the temple, will flee out into the desert where they will be cared for by God 1260 days to that place that he will have prepared for her, which is the last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period.
When each individual received Christ, they were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God through the blood of Christ. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and that because God's wrath was poured out on Christ satisfying it for every believer.
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Only after the Bridegroom beats the daylights out of the Bride and even possibly gets her killed by horrible deaths. Sorry, Like the foolish virgins, if you are not watching for him, then you may be just like them....On the other hand, If (and I say that as a hypothetical) you are right, then I do not get Raptured, I will continue to believe and possibly die that way. Either way , I win......on the other hand. WHEN you are shown that you are wrong (millions disappear and your not one of them), please remember this conversation. At this time, You will have to DIE believing in Jesus Christ or use the other alternative. Good Luck because it is closer than you think....Look to Israel!
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E
Could someone who believes in the "pre-trib rapture of the church" please help me understand something.
What Scripture states that those Saints on earth during the great tribulation were either left behind or were saved after the "rapture of the church"?
Also, since you also believe that the great tribulation is also the wrath of God and the church is not subject to the wrath of God, why do those Saints on earth during the great tribulation suffer the wrath of God?
What Scriptures explains this double standard?
What Scripture states that those Saints on earth during the great tribulation were either left behind or were saved after the "rapture of the church"?
Also, since you also believe that the great tribulation is also the wrath of God and the church is not subject to the wrath of God, why do those Saints on earth during the great tribulation suffer the wrath of God?
What Scriptures explains this double standard?
R
1 Kings 17:1-6
17 Now Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the settlers of Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the Lord, the God of Israel lives, before whom I stand, surely there shall be neither dew nor rain these years, except by my word.” [SUP]2 [/SUP]The word of the Lord came to him, saying, [SUP]3 [/SUP]“Go away from here and turn eastward, and hide yourself by the brook Cherith, which is east of the Jordan. [SUP]4 [/SUP]It shall be that you will drink of the brook, and I have commanded the ravens to provide for you there.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]So he went and did according to the word of the Lord, for he went and lived by the brook Cherith, which is east of the Jordan. [SUP]6 [/SUP]The ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning and bread and meat in the evening, and he would drink from the brook.
17 Now Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the settlers of Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the Lord, the God of Israel lives, before whom I stand, surely there shall be neither dew nor rain these years, except by my word.” [SUP]2 [/SUP]The word of the Lord came to him, saying, [SUP]3 [/SUP]“Go away from here and turn eastward, and hide yourself by the brook Cherith, which is east of the Jordan. [SUP]4 [/SUP]It shall be that you will drink of the brook, and I have commanded the ravens to provide for you there.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]So he went and did according to the word of the Lord, for he went and lived by the brook Cherith, which is east of the Jordan. [SUP]6 [/SUP]The ravens brought him bread and meat in the morning and bread and meat in the evening, and he would drink from the brook.