Unsure about repenting sins to the priests?

[mikeuk]

Well, I'll give it to you in a commentary then. This is from my NKJV Nelson Study Bible:

John 20:23 If you forgive: The apostles did not take Jesus' words to mean that they had the power to forgive sins (see Acts 8:22). They knew that only God could forgive sins (see Mark 2:7). Neither the apostles nor the church had the power to forgive specific sins or to prevent forgiveness for any individual. Fundamentally Jesus was speaking of the responsibility of the church to declare the gospel to all the world, so that those who believe in Jesus can find the precious gift of forgiveness (See Matt. 16:19).

And that commentary is written by someone post reformation who did not want to believe what the bible actually says in this regard! The early church fathers clearly believed it. One of the ten thousand different doctrines of protestant division!

Your commentator too ignores the problem that because of the word "retain" it cannot possibly mean what he says.

How does passing the gospel give them the power to retain sins?

I keep asking these questions about some core verses, and the more I confirm protestantism has no answer. It ignores verses it does not like!
At least catholicism is consistent with all of the verses, not post reformation "proof texting" using just a few of them

 

[notuptome]

The bible is quite clear it is the evil hearts of men that attempts to muddy the waters. Mark 2:7 Why doth this man speak blasphemies who can forgive sins but God?

What kind of heart sees itself as "persona Christi"? Oh yeah I know the one who desired to be like the Most High God that's who.

God is not distant. God is never preoccupied that He cannot meet with each individual soul. God loves with so great a love the He will always give His attention to one of His creation. This is Gods great delight to meet with and save a soul from sin. God delights is making souls clean when they ask Him to do so.

The "priests" so called would do well to clean up their own hearts before presuming to render forgiveness to others. They make clean the outside of the cup but the inside is filled with all kinds of vile things.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1 Timothy 2:5,6
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[SUP]a[/SUP] Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Hebrews 7:22-28
22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

 

[notuptome]

Beware of those who creep in and carry away silly women laden with sins. 2 Tim 3:6

They seek those who are weak and easy prey.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Galahad]

If you are interested in some background: The delegated authority to apostles and succession is clearly given in John 20:23 for "those sins you would forgive will be forgiven them". It is important to notice as well - that this is not just a symbol of urging others to confess as some evangelicals would have you believe. Because the power is delegated to "retain sins" as well, which means this is clearly delegated authority.
Despite asking on this forum many times, nobody ever gave a credible alternative meaning to those verses, preferring instead the forum sport of attacking catholic interpretation, never providing their own.

The church fathers are important because in origin there was no new testament, not finalised for several centuries after Christ, the truth passed on by tradition of word of mouth and letter to which the apostle Paul urges believers to hold true. The new testament clearly says in this context "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church" (not the bible you notice!! - and this - me speaking as an ex protestant became evangelical, then RCC is my bone of contetion with the reformationists. Sola scriptura is not biblical, logical or historical! - so you have to question which church is the pillar of truth?)
So looking at ECF from origen on there are references - who spoke of sinners "does not shrink from declaring his sin to a PRIEST of the Lord" Cyprian of Carthage a few years later and many others since. They were speaking long before the new testament as you know it was decided at councils much later.

Believe what you will, but there is history. It was established practice up till the reformation, after which protestantism fractured into thousands of bits over differences of opinion of doctrine, many even losing bishops and priests alltogether despite the clear history there as well.. RCC as you know, has held fast to priestly confession for millenia and also some high church protestant denominations.

All Christians are priests. Jesus is our High Priest.

 

[mikeuk]

The bible is quite clear it is the evil hearts of men that attempts to muddy the waters. Mark 2:7 Why doth this man speak blasphemies who can forgive sins but God?

What kind of heart sees itself as "persona Christi"? Oh yeah I know the one who desired to be like the Most High God that's who.

God is not distant. God is never preoccupied that He cannot meet with each individual soul. God loves with so great a love the He will always give His attention to one of His creation. This is Gods great delight to meet with and save a soul from sin. God delights is making souls clean when they ask Him to do so.

The "priests" so called would do well to clean up their own hearts before presuming to render forgiveness to others. They make clean the outside of the cup but the inside is filled with all kinds of vile things.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Those who baptise, those who lay hands, those annoint oil. All presume the holy spirit works through them. The priest no different at confession, but he has the certainty of scripture and tradition that such is possible and necessary.

Like those who wrote the gospels. They were flawed people. Only innerrant when doing Gods work, whilst God works through them. It did not make them perfect human beings.

And Roger you too have never given me more than nonsense when I ask you for an interpretation of " those sins you would retain will be retained". You too attack the catholic view giving no tenable alternative meaning. We had this same discussion over a month ago.

I hope the OP is beginning to realise there is no proper objection to the verses that underpin catholic sacrament of confession, only the lukewarm "it must be preaching the gospel" which makes no sense in terms of their power to "retain"
It was this kind of nonsense that drove me away from protestant /evangelical, to RCC. Where at least it makes sense.

When you have discounted the impossible whatever is left however improbable must be the truth.


Any way. Ladies and Gentlemen. I have to go out now.

 

[kaylagrl]

You have done it again Kayla.

No explanation of those verse at all. What do YOU think they mean, if not what they actually SAY - that "those sins you would forgive will be forgiven them, those sins you would retain will be retained? -

So why do you think that verse is there at all?

Notice that is hot on the heels of "what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven" "loose on earth will be loosed in heaven"

Nor do you explain why by the time of Origen (long before the new testament finalization) it is documented as established practice.
And the faith was handed on by tradition of word of mouth and letter Paul says so!

Jesus did not give the first christians a new testament. He gave them a covenant, and apostles to hand tradition (which means a handing down) The new testament came later.

If you owe me a debt,can my sister say "the debt is forgiven"? No.Why? Because the debt is owed to me.Only I can forgive the debt. There is an old song of the church which says...

He paid a debt He did not owe;
I owed a debt I could not pay;
I needed someone to wash my sins away.
And, now, I sing a brand new song,
“Amazing Grace.”
Christ Jesus paid a debt that I could never pay.

Now concerning the verse you gave in John... It is worthy of remark here that Jesus confers the same power on all the apostles. He gives to no one of them any special authority. This passage conclusively proves that they were invested with equal power in organizing and governing the church.This authority given them was full proof that they were inspired. The meaning of the passage is not that man can forgive sins that belongs only to God Isaiah 43:23 but that they should be inspired; that in founding the church, and in declaring the will of God, they should be taught by the Holy Spirit to declare on what terms, to what characters, and to what temper of mind God would extend forgiveness of sins. It was not authority to forgive individuals, but to establish in all the churches the terms and conditions on which men might be pardoned, with a promise that God would confirm all that they taught; that all might have assurance of forgiveness who would comply with those terms; and that those who did not comply should not be forgiven, but that their sins should be retained. This commission is as far as possible from the authority which the Roman Catholic claims of remitting sin and of pronouncing pardon. Taken from Commentary

The power to intrude upon the relation between men and God cannot have been given by Christ to His ministers in any but a ministerial or declarative sense—as the authorized interpreters of His word, while in the actings of His ministers, the real nature of the power committed to them is seen in the exercise of church discipline. Taken from Commentary

God only can forgive sins, and Christ being God, has a power to do so likewise; but he never communicated any such power to his apostles; nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves, or pretend to exercise it; it is the mark of antichrist, to attempt anything of the kind; who, in so doing, usurps the divine prerogative, places himself in his seat, and shows himself as if he was God: but this is to be understood only in a doctrinal, or ministerial way, by preaching the full and free remission of sins, through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of God's grace, to such as repent of their sins, and believe in Christ; declaring, that all such persons as do so repent and believe, all their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake.

The context of John 20:23 is that Jesus was speaking to the disciples (v. 19). He breathed on them to receive the Holy Spirit (v. 22). There is nothing in here about priests having the authority to forgive sins. There is nothing here (or anywhere else in the New Testament) about apostolic succession that says priests have the authority to forgive sins and that it is passed down.


"Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, “My son, your sins are forgiven.” 6 But there were some of the scribes sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?” 8 And immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, *said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? 9 “Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Arise, and take up your pallet and walk’? 10 “But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—He *said to the paralytic— 11 “I say to you, rise, take up your pallet and go home.” 12 And he rose and immediately took up the pallet and went out in the sight of all; so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.” (Mark 2:5-12).
Jesus forgave sins; and the Scribes, students of the Law, rightly stated that only God forgives sins. If they were wrong about that, then why didn't Jesus correct them? Instead, he affirms their claim, states he has the authority to forgive sins, and then heals the paralytic. It should be clear that only God forgives sins; and Christians, as representatives of Christ, pronounce to people what has already been forgiven them by God.
So, John 20:23 is not saying that Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins. It is saying that Christian disciples have the authority to pronounce what sins "have been forgiven." Taken from Christian Apologetics Ministry.

 

[mikeuk]

Kaylagirl

Read your quotes again. They make no sense in terms of the power given to "retain" sins.
Which is why your comment and many such similar from evangelicals and protestants over the years make no sense to me.
Also why was the practice established in the early church even before the new testament was finalized?

If you owe me a debt,can my sister say "the debt is forgiven"? No.Why? Because the debt is owed to me.Only I can forgive the debt. There is an old song of the church which says...

He paid a debt He did not owe;
I owed a debt I could not pay;
I needed someone to wash my sins away.
And, now, I sing a brand new song,
“Amazing Grace.”
Christ Jesus paid a debt that I could never pay.

Now concerning the verse you gave in John... It is worthy of remark here that Jesus confers the same power on all the apostles. He gives to no one of them any special authority. This passage conclusively proves that they were invested with equal power in organizing and governing the church.This authority given them was full proof that they were inspired. The meaning of the passage is not that man can forgive sins that belongs only to God Isaiah 43:23 but that they should be inspired; that in founding the church, and in declaring the will of God, they should be taught by the Holy Spirit to declare on what terms, to what characters, and to what temper of mind God would extend forgiveness of sins. It was not authority to forgive individuals, but to establish in all the churches the terms and conditions on which men might be pardoned, with a promise that God would confirm all that they taught; that all might have assurance of forgiveness who would comply with those terms; and that those who did not comply should not be forgiven, but that their sins should be retained. This commission is as far as possible from the authority which the Roman Catholic claims of remitting sin and of pronouncing pardon. Taken from Commentary

The power to intrude upon the relation between men and God cannot have been given by Christ to His ministers in any but a ministerial or declarative sense—as the authorized interpreters of His word, while in the actings of His ministers, the real nature of the power committed to them is seen in the exercise of church discipline. Taken from Commentary

God only can forgive sins, and Christ being God, has a power to do so likewise; but he never communicated any such power to his apostles; nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves, or pretend to exercise it; it is the mark of antichrist, to attempt anything of the kind; who, in so doing, usurps the divine prerogative, places himself in his seat, and shows himself as if he was God: but this is to be understood only in a doctrinal, or ministerial way, by preaching the full and free remission of sins, through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of God's grace, to such as repent of their sins, and believe in Christ; declaring, that all such persons as do so repent and believe, all their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake.

The context of John 20:23 is that Jesus was speaking to the disciples (v. 19). He breathed on them to receive the Holy Spirit (v. 22). There is nothing in here about priests having the authority to forgive sins. There is nothing here (or anywhere else in the New Testament) about apostolic succession that says priests have the authority to forgive sins and that it is passed down.


"Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, “My son, your sins are forgiven.” 6 But there were some of the scribes sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?” 8 And immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, *said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? 9 “Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Arise, and take up your pallet and walk’? 10 “But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—He *said to the paralytic— 11 “I say to you, rise, take up your pallet and go home.” 12 And he rose and immediately took up the pallet and went out in the sight of all; so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.” (Mark 2:5-12).
Jesus forgave sins; and the Scribes, students of the Law, rightly stated that only God forgives sins. If they were wrong about that, then why didn't Jesus correct them? Instead, he affirms their claim, states he has the authority to forgive sins, and then heals the paralytic. It should be clear that only God forgives sins; and Christians, as representatives of Christ, pronounce to people what has already been forgiven them by God.
So, John 20:23 is not saying that Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins. It is saying that Christian disciples have the authority to pronounce what sins "have been forgiven." Taken from Christian Apologetics Ministry.

 

[Galahad]

And that commentary is written by someone post reformation who did not want to believe what the bible actually says in this regard! The early church fathers clearly believed it. One of the ten thousand different doctrines of protestant division!

Your commentator too ignores the problem that because of the word "retain" it cannot possibly mean what he says.

How does passing the gospel give them the power to retain sins?

I keep asking these questions about some core verses, and the more I confirm protestantism has no answer. It ignores verses it does not like!
At least catholicism is consistent with all of the verses, not post reformation "proof texting" using just a few of them

You point to one word not being addressed, though it was, yet you insert succession.

 

[mikeuk]

You point to one word not being addressed, though it was, yet you insert succession.

Don't understand your remark - last part..
You have not addressed the problem of both the power to forgive AND RETAIN. Which cannot be mere preaching of gospel.

Anyway I have to go out now. Farewell.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This poor gal does not need all this fighting, Take it to another thread. She asked for help. not a catholic/protestant bashing session.

Just saying

 

[Lynx]

I bet the OP is miles away by now and still running scared. One innocent little question started a firestorm.

Perhaps it would be possible to make the Bible Discussion Forum hidden, only visible to those who have made more than 200 posts in other forums. Then we wouldn't scare away so many newbies like this.

 

[Lynx]

Three points for eternally-gratefull. He beat me to the punch. =^.^=

 

[MyLighthouse]

Only God can cleanse you of your sins, but it is fine to confess sins to others. Some times we need others prayers.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." ( 1 Jn 1:9)and "I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,” and you forgave the iniquity of my sin." (Ps 32:5) > This is anytime you feel you have sinned against God, you can boldly come to the throne of grace ( Heb 4:16) and receive his mercy and grace.

"Are any of you sick? You should call for the elders of the church to come and pray over you, anointing you with oil in the name of the Lord." (Ja 5:14) and "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The urgent request of a righteous person is very powerful in its effect." ( Ja 5:16) > so it's ok to confess your sins to others, many sins are bonds we just can't break on our own and need others to agree with us in prayer. Your situation for example is a good "confession" and way for people to join you in prayer or pray over you: to have peace of mind, to follow God's pull in your life, to obey God over man, to be reprogrammed into Bible over Catholicism, etc.

The important thing is to know that ONLY God can forgive you, cleanse you, and make you righteous, not a priest. They are man and fall pray under the same curse of sin as the rest of mankind, they do not have the power to forgive your sins or make you clean.

 

[Jason0047]

So as Easter is coming, we (Roman Catholics) should repent our sins to the priest to celebrate resurrection clean. My problem here is that the Bible doesn't say it should be performed like that. We should confess our sins only to God. But as I'm "programmed" to repent to the priest, I get scared of not doing it. Like I'm evil and a bad Christian. I'm supposed to do it today...

Any advice would help me, thanks

Well, the Bible is sort of like our spiritual road map.
You go outside of what it is telling you and you are straying off the path.

Now, when we turn the pages of the New Testament within our Bibles, we learn that the temple veil was torn when Jesus Christ was crucified. The priestly order of going to priests under the Aaronic (or Levitical) priesthood order is no more. For Jesus is after an entirely different priesthood order. Jesus is after the order of Melchizedeck. He is after an order whereby He is our heavenly high priest.

In fact, here is a passage in Hebrews 7 for you to constantly think about it by prayer. Not just any kind of quick prayer. I mean, really ask the Lord for understanding when you read it (Jeremiah 33:3).

Anyways, this passage will help you to understand what this new priesthood order is like:

"By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:14-16).

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (1 Timothy 2:5).

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" (1 John 2:1). For...

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
(1 John 1:9).

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:14-16)

Side Note:

James 5:15-16 is in context to being healed. Just look at verse 16, it says confess your faults to one another so that you may be healed. Also, it says to one another (Meaning the brethren and not a high priest --- which are not mentioned in the New Testament). Sickness is also the context in James 5:15-16. In some cases, sickness could have been brought about by sin (In which they might have been struggling with). So if this brother goes to other believers (Not a high priest) and seeks their help to overcome their sickness and the sin (that they have been confessing to Jesus), then that person will be healed and forgiven (By seeking refuge in the body of Christ).

As for John 20:23 that says,
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soeversins ye retain, they are retained.

This is in reference to how they can declare and judge by the Spirit if someone was forgiven or not according to the gospel.

Like when Peter had says to Cornelius and his household how they will be saved,

"Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." (Acts 11:14-18).

And sort of like when Peter said to Simon the Sorcerer that his heart was not right with God and that he should repent,

Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. (Acts 8:21-22).

Also, if you take note: when Jesus and the disciples receive the Holy Ghost and then told that they can remit sins, Peter later is reminded of what John the Baptist said about the baptism of the Holy Ghost when the Spirit fell upon them (as it did on them, the disciples, in the beginning) when Peter told Cornelius and their household was going to be saved.

In other words, do NOTgo to a priest (Besides Jesus) to confess your sins. Only Jesus can forgive you of sin. Not a man. For on Earth would you need to go to a man if you have Jesus in your life to confess sins?

 

[Willie-T]

I see nothing "unbiblical" about confessing your failings to a priest. providing (and this is a big PROVIDING), you are viewing him as simply a wiser, trusted Christian brother. And, under no circumstances see your "confession" as a religious duty performed before an authorized redemption figure.

I have two people in our church that I unload on. One is a male regular member, and the other happens to be the wife of our preacher. And I do not confide in her because of "what" she is, but because of "who" I have come to learn over the years she is as a person.

I do happen to think there is some sort of important concept in us confessing to other humans, and not just to God. I don't really understand what it is, but it is definitely part of the primary function of Christianity, and that is, Community and inter personal relationships.

 

[Jason0047]

No priest on this Earth can forgive you except the Heavenly High Priest Jesus Christ. Go to Him and Him alone. The priests in your church are looking to absolve you of sin. Only Jesus can do that. So don't go. Read your Bible instead on this matter in prayer with God.

 

[Jason0047]

In other words, do NOTgo to a priest (Besides Jesus) to confess your sins. Only Jesus can forgive you of sin. Not a man. For ____ on Earth would you need to go to a man if you have Jesus in your life to confess sins?

Edit:

Sorry, meant to say.... "For why on Earth..."

Thank you for reading, and may God bless you greatly.

 

[crossnote]

All Christians are priests. Jesus is our High Priest.

A little backup...

1 Peter 2:5, 9
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

 

[Jason0047]

This poor gal does not need all this fighting, Take it to another thread. She asked for help. not a catholic/protestant bashing session.

Just saying

Why shouldn't Bible believers not warn others about the deceptions of Catholicism?