Weeping for the sin of others
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E
You sound depressed. I do not see in the responses the very negative comments you are now making.
The reality of those who rejoice in Christ because He has removed our sins as far as the east is from the west is the truth of scripture.
You sound like you have no hope and I am sure no one here has caused that. Examining one's sins with a microscope and comparing them with others, is not in the least beneficial and hardly a remedy found in scripture.
Renew your mind and place your faith in Christ.
Nehemiah wept because he had returned with people who had never seen Jerusalem and they did not know the law or the commandments of God.
Jesus wept because he knew that Israel was going to fall because they rejected Him.
All churches are not going down the drain and all Chrisitans are not living in sin as you seem to suggest.
It is not my place to convict peoples heart about the need for righteous living, and the lost souls falling into hell and dispare.
The question I raised is about weeping, about being cut to the heart over sin and disfunctional behaviour.
My conclusion is few know spiritual reality or the poverty of so many, and they believe the lies and even if it is a lie, they prefer the make believe than find reality. But finding reality is what following Jesus is all about, and this is often brutal and hard, involving brokenness, a contrite heart, facing up to the hurt and pain you cause others, and seeing needs all around you.
The Jesus of many is the Jesus of their imagination and not the Jesus who is Lord of all.
The question I raised is about weeping, about being cut to the heart over sin and disfunctional behaviour.
My conclusion is few know spiritual reality or the poverty of so many, and they believe the lies and even if it is a lie, they prefer the make believe than find reality. But finding reality is what following Jesus is all about, and this is often brutal and hard, involving brokenness, a contrite heart, facing up to the hurt and pain you cause others, and seeing needs all around you.
The Jesus of many is the Jesus of their imagination and not the Jesus who is Lord of all.
E
And I read where people responded in the affirmative including myself. And yet I have seen people weeping at the altar and then go out and continue in sin
Your conclusion is wrong Peter. Is God so poor that He cannot and has not raised up a body of believers for His Son as the scriptures say He does and will?
Your posts are, very often, quite accusatory and you do not offer any remedy.
I am up to here with negative attitudes in Christians.
How would you like to be in a lineup for ISIS to behead you? that has become a reality for many believers...and their children
Being inner focused on your own sin is not the life Christ has for you
sorry, but grow up or something
E
emotions are a sad ruler to measure how spiritual we are, or a guid to what we should do. They can get turned on and off moment by moment,
Thats why charasmatic leaders can so easily convince people to do many things in a building, but alot of their influence is lost the second their people go back into the world. It has no foundation
E
well, a good metaphor is the one with the little train..heard it? The engine should be truth and the caboose is our emotions
see, but I think you know this, the anchor for our emotions is always the Bible...as a person who has been at the mercy of their emotions...and my emotions were without mercy...growing up and into my 20's and most of my 30's, I appreciate being able to know that even though I may change, God does not change...so His word is the most valued thing we have apart from His Spirit indwelling us!
see, but I think you know this, the anchor for our emotions is always the Bible...as a person who has been at the mercy of their emotions...and my emotions were without mercy...growing up and into my 20's and most of my 30's, I appreciate being able to know that even though I may change, God does not change...so His word is the most valued thing we have apart from His Spirit indwelling us!
I haven't taken the time to read all the inputs so I may simply be repeating here:. It all depends on your definition of "Sin."
I believe the results of sin is also sin. Meaning: Sin is not a wrong doing but a "being", and from that being come its fruit or particulars, And it is evil, unto death.
So when you ask if we weep for the sin of others, my answer would be "yes" but only for the being part. For the particulars would be a waist of my prayers. That would be like me being Satan and asking my Minions to pray to the devil [myself] for the results of Jesus to disappear, why would he do that? The devil knows full- well that if Jesus is not touched or harmed He would simply reinstate the Saint once more to have His results once more.
"Oh, I prayed for Bob to stop swearing this 'wrong doing' and praise God he stopped for a day, thank you Lord." Followed by the next day when the being of sin still prevails once again. "Oh, Lord, at least thank you for making him better than he was." But is that the truth? Is he better? Has the being been dealt with? The Lord simply wonders why you didn't listen to Him and plant His seed for the Holy Spirit to start working... His Words seeds, your example of Him seeds. Intercessory prayer is Our Lord's calling, but like it is with our own lives-- not for victory, but from it, and this is the unchurched we are to pray for and draw the Holy Spirit to respond toward them faithfully . I pray, and love for the souls of men, which is the definition of sin before regeneration.
It is Warfare. The Spirit I serve versus the Spirit that rules them. And we are His warriors thru Christ.
God wants us to paint Gods picture of Himself as Jesus did as; not an embarrassed God, not a confused God, not a God who stands apart from the problems, but One who stands in the thick of the whole thing with man. I am not praying for them because there is nothing else I can do for them But I pray because My God wants me to pray before I do anything at all. Prayer is Gods work to the unsaved it awakes the gentle giant of love. And then don't be surprised if He choses you to gift them with His grace.
I believe the results of sin is also sin. Meaning: Sin is not a wrong doing but a "being", and from that being come its fruit or particulars, And it is evil, unto death.
So when you ask if we weep for the sin of others, my answer would be "yes" but only for the being part. For the particulars would be a waist of my prayers. That would be like me being Satan and asking my Minions to pray to the devil [myself] for the results of Jesus to disappear, why would he do that? The devil knows full- well that if Jesus is not touched or harmed He would simply reinstate the Saint once more to have His results once more.
"Oh, I prayed for Bob to stop swearing this 'wrong doing' and praise God he stopped for a day, thank you Lord." Followed by the next day when the being of sin still prevails once again. "Oh, Lord, at least thank you for making him better than he was." But is that the truth? Is he better? Has the being been dealt with? The Lord simply wonders why you didn't listen to Him and plant His seed for the Holy Spirit to start working... His Words seeds, your example of Him seeds. Intercessory prayer is Our Lord's calling, but like it is with our own lives-- not for victory, but from it, and this is the unchurched we are to pray for and draw the Holy Spirit to respond toward them faithfully . I pray, and love for the souls of men, which is the definition of sin before regeneration.
It is Warfare. The Spirit I serve versus the Spirit that rules them. And we are His warriors thru Christ.
God wants us to paint Gods picture of Himself as Jesus did as; not an embarrassed God, not a confused God, not a God who stands apart from the problems, but One who stands in the thick of the whole thing with man. I am not praying for them because there is nothing else I can do for them But I pray because My God wants me to pray before I do anything at all. Prayer is Gods work to the unsaved it awakes the gentle giant of love. And then don't be surprised if He choses you to gift them with His grace.
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chron 7:14
What does this verse mean? Is there a time history when there are not people with wicked ways, who would not benefit from humbling themselves?
But there are those who say this is taking God at His word too seriously. Emotions are so volatile we should not get upset about sin, about failure, about lies, sexual immorality, murder, theft, torture, perversions of every description.
Who needs revival, or people entering eternal life, when they are set to be destroyed? For me the only question is how can we achieve this, if it is possible, because anything is worth eternal life touching people. Jesus came that we might have this life and enter the Kingdom.
Emotions are our friend, they tell us who we are, and what are hearts are feeling. Those who fear emotions have not sorted out who they are or what triggers their emotions. Jesus came to set us free, to make us consistent, the same in our hearts as we are on the outside.
To those who feel discipline and denial are the only way to control their emotions, unfortunately will feel the reality I am describing is the opposite of doing the right thing, because they fear their emotions and impulses.
If people tell you the church is fine, things are not that bad, we are doing well, are not sane but fear what is within.
We will never match up to the holiness of God, or that we know fully how deeply we fail. We fail simply because we are not close enough to the Father and His will.
Can you conceive of those closest to you destroyed, because simply they do not reach out to the Lord. The wasted lives lost in the confusion of our existence, does that not move your hearts? It always seems so hard to convey the simple reality, and yet life echoes this truth, everywhere. The Lord appears to send His Spirit to honour the call of His humble people, so why would we not answer such a call.
I know when I felt for the young innocents falling into nothing with no hope my heart split in two. So so many who will be lost, finding nothing. The Lords heart is so much greater than this, so much so, if we felt this reality our hearts would break. My wife thought I was going mad.
What does this verse mean? Is there a time history when there are not people with wicked ways, who would not benefit from humbling themselves?
But there are those who say this is taking God at His word too seriously. Emotions are so volatile we should not get upset about sin, about failure, about lies, sexual immorality, murder, theft, torture, perversions of every description.
Who needs revival, or people entering eternal life, when they are set to be destroyed? For me the only question is how can we achieve this, if it is possible, because anything is worth eternal life touching people. Jesus came that we might have this life and enter the Kingdom.
Emotions are our friend, they tell us who we are, and what are hearts are feeling. Those who fear emotions have not sorted out who they are or what triggers their emotions. Jesus came to set us free, to make us consistent, the same in our hearts as we are on the outside.
To those who feel discipline and denial are the only way to control their emotions, unfortunately will feel the reality I am describing is the opposite of doing the right thing, because they fear their emotions and impulses.
If people tell you the church is fine, things are not that bad, we are doing well, are not sane but fear what is within.
We will never match up to the holiness of God, or that we know fully how deeply we fail. We fail simply because we are not close enough to the Father and His will.
Can you conceive of those closest to you destroyed, because simply they do not reach out to the Lord. The wasted lives lost in the confusion of our existence, does that not move your hearts? It always seems so hard to convey the simple reality, and yet life echoes this truth, everywhere. The Lord appears to send His Spirit to honour the call of His humble people, so why would we not answer such a call.
I know when I felt for the young innocents falling into nothing with no hope my heart split in two. So so many who will be lost, finding nothing. The Lords heart is so much greater than this, so much so, if we felt this reality our hearts would break. My wife thought I was going mad.
Wow...this is a very weird thing to say. I mean, how do you know that they are dying inside while dancing and singing? Can you see their hearts?
If I can't rejoice while people dance and sing, it is because I am the one dying inside, not them!
Also, I find the title of the thread confusing. No, I find it scandalous. Maybe I misunderstood it.
The only sins we should weep for are our own sins, not the other people sins. We can weep for people's troubles, problems, sufferance etc., not for their sins. That would be very arrogant, in my opinion.
If I can't rejoice while people dance and sing, it is because I am the one dying inside, not them!
Also, I find the title of the thread confusing. No, I find it scandalous. Maybe I misunderstood it.
The only sins we should weep for are our own sins, not the other people sins. We can weep for people's troubles, problems, sufferance etc., not for their sins. That would be very arrogant, in my opinion.
As he(Jesus) approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.” Luke 19:41
Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before God when you heard what he spoke against this place and its people, and because you humbled yourself before me and tore your robes and wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the Lord.
1 Chron 34:27
The principle laid out in scripture, is judgement for sin, or as in Nineveh they fasted and put on sackcloth.
Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.” The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth. Jonah 3:4-5
Throughout church history people have come under conviction of sin and the lostness of the people they are living with and ask God to do a mighty work to bring revival.
And in some cases that is exactly what has happened.
But the first steps are people need to acknowledge there is a need. It appears many do not, and even feel this whole idea or reality is wrong. Personally I know how lost people are, and how difficult it is to bring the message of love to peoples heart, so any help is much appreciated.
How this can be deemed arrogant or wrong I do not understand. We are not righteous, we are not successful, we are not even good at what we do, yet it is wrong to ask God to help us?
Surely only He can bring about His glorious Kingdom through vessels who understand how much we need and depend upon Him.
Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before God when you heard what he spoke against this place and its people, and because you humbled yourself before me and tore your robes and wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the Lord.
1 Chron 34:27
The principle laid out in scripture, is judgement for sin, or as in Nineveh they fasted and put on sackcloth.
Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.” The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth. Jonah 3:4-5
Throughout church history people have come under conviction of sin and the lostness of the people they are living with and ask God to do a mighty work to bring revival.
And in some cases that is exactly what has happened.
But the first steps are people need to acknowledge there is a need. It appears many do not, and even feel this whole idea or reality is wrong. Personally I know how lost people are, and how difficult it is to bring the message of love to peoples heart, so any help is much appreciated.
How this can be deemed arrogant or wrong I do not understand. We are not righteous, we are not successful, we are not even good at what we do, yet it is wrong to ask God to help us?
Surely only He can bring about His glorious Kingdom through vessels who understand how much we need and depend upon Him.
Looking for change, but changing nothing.
People can know they are sinners, feel bad about hurting others, and yet go and do exactly the same thing again.
A man has a gun. He loads it and fires it at anyone who gets too close. He feels very bad about the fact he does this.
Now the proof he has understood what he is doing, how and why he is doing it, and that it is wrong, is when he removes the gun, takes out the ammunition and invites people to sit with him when they get too close.
The first step is obviously recognising you are doing things wrong. The next step is changing your behaviour because the light has been switched on and you understand the why and how.
It has never been helpful to just give up, and say there is no point showing people the failure and feeling bad about it, because nothing changes. Nothing changes because other than feeling bad about the situation there is no deeper understanding or the next steps being taken.
But without the first step, there never will be next steps.
But it begs the question how many here know what the next steps actually are?
People can know they are sinners, feel bad about hurting others, and yet go and do exactly the same thing again.
A man has a gun. He loads it and fires it at anyone who gets too close. He feels very bad about the fact he does this.
Now the proof he has understood what he is doing, how and why he is doing it, and that it is wrong, is when he removes the gun, takes out the ammunition and invites people to sit with him when they get too close.
The first step is obviously recognising you are doing things wrong. The next step is changing your behaviour because the light has been switched on and you understand the why and how.
It has never been helpful to just give up, and say there is no point showing people the failure and feeling bad about it, because nothing changes. Nothing changes because other than feeling bad about the situation there is no deeper understanding or the next steps being taken.
But without the first step, there never will be next steps.
But it begs the question how many here know what the next steps actually are?
This is a good question. Following Jesus assumes some basic beliefs about the situation we all find ourselves in.
It says we have obligations to those around us, a need for humbleness before the Lord, to forgive as we are forgiven, to see people as individuals worthy of love, to speak the truth, to not avoid difficult situations, to feel the heights of joy and depths of sadness but for the right reasons. This is the map, but you have to walk around it to begin to understand how you individually fit within it, and what barriers you have along the way.
So many stumble over the forgive step. Another find it hard to realise we are all equally worthy of being appreciated and loved, not because of who we are, but because God loves us. Now I know how difficult this is to do, and often takes years of slow change and growth, but it is still a reality that needs to happen.
Another part is understanding how sin turns people into slaves and holds them captive. Our histories of hurt, disappointment, shutting things down, distrust, envy, lack of self worth etc. often stop the very basics of life coming out, and we retreat into a unhealthy place of self pity.
Now all of this needs to be ministered to each believer by the Holy Spirit and by the preaching of His word.
But in the context of what I was focusing on, remorse or seeing the state of how things are is the first step.
But it appears this is not understood, or even the next steps and how to get there.
My testimony is likewise I was disappointed few seemed to be able to articulate the next steps, but now I know them, I can begin to share. The problem is like pilgrims progress it is not a single thing but a whole growth and development over many years. But what is of value is sharing this image and getting consensus of how to express this reality to help and encourage others who have not yet begun or got lost along the way.
It says we have obligations to those around us, a need for humbleness before the Lord, to forgive as we are forgiven, to see people as individuals worthy of love, to speak the truth, to not avoid difficult situations, to feel the heights of joy and depths of sadness but for the right reasons. This is the map, but you have to walk around it to begin to understand how you individually fit within it, and what barriers you have along the way.
So many stumble over the forgive step. Another find it hard to realise we are all equally worthy of being appreciated and loved, not because of who we are, but because God loves us. Now I know how difficult this is to do, and often takes years of slow change and growth, but it is still a reality that needs to happen.
Another part is understanding how sin turns people into slaves and holds them captive. Our histories of hurt, disappointment, shutting things down, distrust, envy, lack of self worth etc. often stop the very basics of life coming out, and we retreat into a unhealthy place of self pity.
Now all of this needs to be ministered to each believer by the Holy Spirit and by the preaching of His word.
But in the context of what I was focusing on, remorse or seeing the state of how things are is the first step.
But it appears this is not understood, or even the next steps and how to get there.
My testimony is likewise I was disappointed few seemed to be able to articulate the next steps, but now I know them, I can begin to share. The problem is like pilgrims progress it is not a single thing but a whole growth and development over many years. But what is of value is sharing this image and getting consensus of how to express this reality to help and encourage others who have not yet begun or got lost along the way.
L
And also knowing that for those people who don't believe, they could have had, can have - forgiveness and be given eternal life, but if they refuse, we know what will happen to them. I can see weeping over that major loss and waste of a persons life and soul. Not to mention the suffering they will go through should they leave this earth without Jesus. I cannot fathom the awfulness of never ever being forgiven and locked into hell for all eternity without God. To even consider my loved ones in that situation is just to awful to dwell on.
