What does it mean "to fulfill the Law"?

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PHart

Guest
#21
According to Lois:

“Fulfill the Law” means to properly interpret the Torah so that people can obey it as God really intends.
To 'fulfill' the law means to satisfy the law so as to have no debt of law against you. Satisfying the law and literally keeping the law are often two different things. It's important to know the difference in order to understand our relationship to the law in this New Covenant.


"Abolish the Law" means to undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it.
No, 'abolish' means to set aside as obsolete. What Christ did not come to do is destroy the law. He did in fact abolish various literal stipulations of law with his coming that kept us at a distance from Him. But what he absolutely did not come to do was destroy the law as in a trampling down or over throwing of the law.
 
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Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
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#22
Thanks for your participation, PHart.

To 'fulfill' the law means to satisfy the law so as to have no debt of law against you.
I gathered the opinions of 3 different people who say that "fulfill the Law" is a rabbinic idiom and all of them gave me the same definition: "to correctly interpret the Torah". Those who say, however, that "fulfill the Law" is not an idiom give many different definitions.

No, 'abolish' means to set aside as obsolete.
ABOLISH on its own means that, but Lois Tverberg says that ABOLISH THE LAW is an Rabbinic idiom meaning "to undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it".

I just want to verify if Lois Tverberg is right or wrong. It would be nice to have a rabbi here!
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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#23
This makes sense to me marcelo. Ill try to explain my thought.

To interpret it means to correctly understand it. To correctly understand it shows me how awful I am. This leads to forgiving others because I see I am the same as them in my tendencies.

And it also leads to me praising God for all He has done for my soul.

So in both of these, I am both loving and forgiving my neighbor and praising and loving God.

To interpret it correctly means I don't use unequal weights between my neighbor and myself. I see myself in the same boat he is instead of not forgiving him.

Don't know if I made sense to anyone.:)
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#24
Thanks for your participation, PHart.

I gathered the opinions of 3 different people who say that "fulfill the Law" is a rabbinic idiom and all of them gave me the same definition: "to correctly interpret the Torah". Those who say, however, that "fulfill the Law" is not an idiom give many different definitions.



ABOLISH on its own means that, but Lois Tverberg says that ABOLISH THE LAW is an Rabbinic idiom meaning "to undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it".

I just want to verify if Lois Tverberg is right or wrong. It would be nice to have a rabbi here!
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 23:8, “But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi, (master)’ for One is your Master, the Messiah, and you are all brothers.”[/FONT]

Why?Because our only leadr is Yahshua Messiah. It is His words we rely on, asking any self professe "rabbi" is error as anyone who profsses themselves a rabbi/master is an opponet of Yahshua/Jesus by His won words.

Why can we not simply look at Yahshua's words, go a little deeper and look at the konie Greek, and for contexyt and clarification learn what Yahsua says so weel that all of His teachings are in our hearts, that we may fully understand Him and His words.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting." [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Philippians 4:13, "I have strength to do all, through Messiah who empowers me."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 7:7, “Ask and it shall be given to you, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened."


[/FONT]
 
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PHart

Guest
#25
I just want to verify if Lois Tverberg is right or wrong. It would be nice to have a rabbi here!
I would say that the important things to remember are 'abolish' and 'destroy' are two different things and should be understood accordingly; and, no one earns right standing with God through the law.

I will say it's pretty much a waste of time to talk about the law, along with most other subjects in the church because people are so profoundly unfamiliar with the Bible and only know the general teachings of the particular denomination they have been taught. Add to that their stubborn insistence that what they know is the only truth and you get a pretty good idea of why it's a waste of time to talk about these kinds of things.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
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#26
This makes sense to me marcelo. Ill try to explain my thought.

To interpret it means to correctly understand it. To correctly understand it shows me how awful I am. This leads to forgiving others because I see I am the same as them in my tendencies.

And it also leads to me praising God for all He has done for my soul.

So in both of these, I am both loving and forgiving my neighbor and praising and loving God.

To interpret it correctly means I don't use unequal weights between my neighbor and myself. I see myself in the same boat he is instead of not forgiving him.

Don't know if I made sense to anyone.:)
Hi, Grace! I agree with you: Jesus' interpretation of the Torah makes us realize how bad we are. Now that we know the truth about ourselves, and if we want to do justice, we must forgive others because we are no better than them (we just have different flaws). So, instead of holding grudges let's forgive others and praise God because He forgives us too. I know sometimes it's hard, LOL.

I think that Lois' definition of FULFILL THE LAW (to properly interpret the Torah) fits well, but as for ABOLISH THE LAW (to undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it), I have some doubts.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#28
Ok, Hizikyah, so ... what shall I call a rabbi, then? Synagogue leader? Jewish priest?
I get what your saying, that is up to you, I simply called them self professed "rabbis", as there is only one Rabbi/Master the Messiah Yahsua/Jesus Christ.

I want to add, anyone who does not accept Yahshua as Messiah is anti-Messiah

1 John/Yahanan 2:22-23, “Who is the liar, except the one denying that יהושע is the Messiah? This is the anti-messiah, the one denying the Father and the Son. No one denying the Son has the Father. The one confessing the Son has the Father as well.”

I personally dont look to any who deny the Messiah for truth. Not to say all Jew do, there are many Jews who follow Messiah, also there are self professed "rabbis" that preach Messiah, so dopn't think Im trrowing them all in as one group.


2 John/Yahanan 1:9, "Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of the Messiah, does not have Yah. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."


John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 –poimén)."
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#29
I think that Lois' definition of FULFILL THE LAW (to properly interpret the Torah) fits well, but as for ABOLISH THE LAW (to undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it), I have some doubts.
Yeah I dont in any way think Lois view is correct, it seems to ignore word meanings and so much of what Yahshua said and did.

With that said, the pharisees did; "[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]nullify the command of YHWH by tradition[/FONT]" but this is not AT ALL what is being talked about in Mat 5 IMO.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 15:4-9, “For YHWH has commanded, saying, ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me has been dedicated, is certainly released from respecting his father or mother.’ So you have nullified the command of YHWH by your tradition."Hypocrites! Well did Isayah (29:13-14)* prophesy of you, saying: These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." [/FONT]
 
Apr 15, 2017
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#30
To fulfill the law means to live up to the law,moral laws,laws of love,by the Spirit.

In the Old Testament they could not have the Spirit,but in the New Testament we can have the Spirit,so there is no excuse.

At least the Old Testament saints have somewhat of an excuse,for they could not have the Spirit,but in the New Testament there is no excuse,and that is the purpose of the Spirit to help us live up to the law,and fulfill it,because a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,for they have crucified the flesh with the lusts and affections,and this is what makes us right with God.

People who sin are not led of the Spirit,for a Spirit led life shows no ways of the flesh.

The Bible does not say those that have the Spirit are not under the law,but those that are led of the Spirit are not under the law.

If a person is holding unto sin,then how are they being led of the Spirit,for if they were led of the Spirit,then it would be all the Spirit's ways in their life,and not the flesh.

If an adult leads a child it is not the child's way,but the adult's way.If a man leads a horse,the horse does not have the man on a rope leading the man.If a teacher leads the students is a student instructing the teacher.

How are they being led of the Spirit,if they sin,and hold unto sin,for then it is the flesh leading,and then they are under the law.

We have to fulfill the law,live up to the law,by the Spirit,and there is no excuse.

Some people act like thoughts,or actions,that are wrong,does not hinder their relationship with God,but if they sin,or hold unto sin,then they are not led of the Spirit,but led of the flesh.

Some people try to use the example of the Old Testament saints,like David,and Moses,to try to justify that they cannot abstain from sin,and they are not perfect.

But the people in the Old Testament could not have the Spirit,where in the New Testament we can have the Spirit,so quit using them as an example to justify your sin.

You sin on purpose,and then act like you cannot abstain from sin.

I'm sorry honey for thinking about cheating on you for 1 week,and then cheating on you for 3 hours straight,for I could not stop myself for we cannot abstain from sin.

I'm sorry officer for speeding,and driving recklessly these past 3 hours,and consuming those 24 cans of beer you see in the back seat,for I could not help myself for we cannot abstain from sin.

Come on,they are sinning on purpose,and then using the excuse they cannot abstain from sin,especially in incidents they have plenty of time to turn away from it,but do not.

Who are they trying to fool.

They sin because they want to sin,not they cannot abstain from sin.

Gal 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

You can fool some of the people,all of the time,and all of the people,some of the time,but you can never fool God.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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#31
I would say that the important things to remember are 'abolish' and 'destroy' are two different things and should be understood accordingly; and, no one earns right standing with God through the law.

I will say it's pretty much a waste of time to talk about the law, along with most other subjects in the church because people are so profoundly unfamiliar with the Bible and only know the general teachings of the particular denomination they have been taught. Add to that their stubborn insistence that what they know is the only truth and you get a pretty good idea of why it's a waste of time to talk about these kinds of things.
Yes, I can see how one can come to that conclusion, I have thought the same thing. But through all the noise, and ego's I learn from these discussions. I Am being trained to be a priest, yes?

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

2 Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So I think it is good to able to learn how to communicate with people, learn from people, grow our patience, expand out understanding, be challenged, suffer false accusations, learn humility, etc.

For me, I see the scriptures come alive and can see there is no new thing under the sun. How man hates the real God and works so hard NOT to be in subjection to His Righteousness.

I have said this before, I used to think I was here to help others see.

But the longer I'm here, the more apparent it is to me that this whole exercise is for my learning. It helps me come face to face with who I am. I get encouragement from your thoughts and perspective Phart. I gain understanding because I work/seek harder to understand and God blesses me with answers. Hiz, and LGF, and Beta and others are helping me with perspectives I never considered before.

So it isn't a waste of time to me. People like me are reading your posts and are witnessing the age old battle between those who trust the God of the Bible, and those who do not. Every time I hear to popular statement, "it is impossible to obey God", the Mainstream theme on this forum I am reminded of one of the examples god has written for our admonition. I will share it with you in closing.

Numbers 13:27 And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it.

Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.


29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan.


30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.


31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.

Num. 14:6 And Joshua the son of Nun, and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, which were of them that searched the land, rent their clothes:
7 And they spake unto all the company of the children of Israel, saying, The land, which we passed through to search it, is an exceeding good land.



8 If the LORD delight in us, then he will bring us into this land, and give it us; a land which floweth with milk and honey.


9 Only rebel not ye against the LORD, neither fear ye the people of the land; for they are bread for us: their defence is departed from them, and the LORD is with us: fear them not.


10 But all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of the LORD appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all the children of Israel.

This story represents the battle that goes on every day with God's people.









1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.


You hang in there Phart :)





 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#32
I think that Lois' definition of FULFILL THE LAW (to properly interpret the Torah) fits well, but as for ABOLISH THE LAW (to undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it), I have some doubts.
Hi Marcelo,

Not only did Jesus fully interpret the law with authority, He fulfilled it with His life, death and resurrection. The law was fulfilled in Him.

It's as simple as the gospel. If 'fulfil the law' just means interpret, then we have no understanding of Jesus' life and death and resurrection. To say 'fulfil the law' just means to interpret the Torah, means to miss the fullness of the gospel itself! Of the Messiahs work on our behalf!

Jesus in his life, death and resurrection fulfils the law on our behalf because we cannot!


 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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#33
Hi, Grace! I agree with you: Jesus' interpretation of the Torah makes us realize how bad we are. Now that we know the truth about ourselves, and if we want to do justice, we must forgive others because we are no better than them (we just have different flaws). So, instead of holding grudges let's forgive others and praise God because He forgives us too. I know sometimes it's hard, LOL.

I think that Lois' definition of FULFILL THE LAW (to properly interpret the Torah) fits well, but as for ABOLISH THE LAW (to undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it), I have some doubts.
I read both of the articles you posted and I liked them very much. I personally didn't have a problem with the second part of your above sentence. Maybe you are seeing it differently than I am...

If to fulfill the law is to properly understand and FULLY teach it, into the very heart matters, then to not fully teach it is to abolish it or abolish portions of it.

For instance, to teach keeping the Sabbath without fully teaching the heart of the matter is to just go back to the law, which can't save anyone. The law is abolished, or not taught properly. But to teach Sabbath keeping fully, is to help a man with the spirit of the words (if he is ready to bear this). To show him that worry about how you will survive, pay the rent and eat, is not resting in the Word and all that this Word (Jesus) promised and told us to do. He promised God knows what we have need of and that He will see to it. So if we are eaten up with these worries as unbelievers are, we are actually NOT keeping the true Sabbath rest in spirit. The words are spirit because God is Spirit.

So if you tell a man he is keeping the Sabbath rest when he is not, you have misled him and done violence to the spirit of the words. You have not taught fully because a man can sit there every Sunday, or whatever day or days he chooses, believing he is keeping Gods law when he is not, because he is not mixing what he is doing with faith (trust) about Gods promise to see to his provision.

Conversely, a man can have the true Sabbath rest in spirit nearly every day while rarely going to a church building on Sundays, because he has taken the word and the promise to heart and fully believed it, thus he isn't eaten with those worries that unbelievers are. And yet, he can be disheartened while another who is full of those worries can be cheered, if the law is not taught fully or interpreted correctly, in spirit.

There is a verse...something like...you have discouraged those you shouldn't have and have encouraged those you shouldn't have. (I'll try to find it. :)
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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#34
Love both posts Stunned, The reason why we can keep the Spirit of the law is because of our new birth. Born of the Spirit of God.

Another nature of ability to be as Jesus was. Given to us in our spirit, and then worked in soul and body.

You have given me a clearer picture of this so thank you!

Great thread Marcelo!
 

Enow

Banned
Dec 21, 2012
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#35
Lois A. Tverberg says in one of her books that "to fulfill the Law" is a Rabbinic Idiom that is still in use today.

What she writes makes sense because no Jew ever asked Jesus: ‘Lord, what do you mean by “fulfill the Law” ‘? Most probably everybody in Judea knew the meaning of those words.

According to Lois:

“Fulfill the Law” means to properly interpret the Torah so that people can obey it as God really intends.

"Abolish the Law" means to undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it.

Do you agree with Lois A. Tverberg or not?

What Does It Mean to "Fulfill the Law"?
Apply His words in context.

Matthew 5:[SUP]17 [/SUP]Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.[SUP]18 [/SUP]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

That is Jesus saying He has come to fulfill the law. He did not say we were to fulfill the law.

Romans 6:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Corinthians 5
:[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.[SUP]21 [/SUP]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Matthew 20:
[SUP]28[/SUP]Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Romans 3:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.[SUP] 20 [/SUP]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.[SUP]21[/SUP]But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;[SUP]22 [/SUP]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:[SUP] 23 [/SUP]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;[SUP] 24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [SUP]26 [/SUP]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
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#36
I read both of the articles you posted and I liked them very much. I personally didn't have a problem with the second part of your above sentence. Maybe you are seeing it differently than I am......If to fulfill the law is to properly understand and FULLY teach it, into the very heart matters, then to not fully teach it is to abolish it or abolish portions of it.
In the text below, I replaced the words ABOLISH THE LAW with undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it and the words FULFILL THE LAW with to properly interpret the Torah so that people can obey it as God really intends.

Let's see if Lois' definitions fit well in the context:

17“Do not think that I have come to undermine the Law, by misinterpreting it, or the Prophets; I have not come to undermine them but to to properly interpret the Torah so that people can obey it as God really intends. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I hope you are right, Grace! Initially I thought that Lois' definition of "ABOLISH THE LAW" would be inconsistent with "THE LAW WILL NOT DISAPPEAR" (or PASS AWAY). I thought that the same Greek word was used both for ABOLISH and DISAPPEAR, but now I see that there are two different words: BE ABOLISHED - καταλῦσαι ; DISAPPEAR - παρέλθῃ.

If the same Greek word were used both for ABOLISH and DISAPPEAR, then Lois' definition of ABOLISH would not make sense.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#37
In the text below, I replaced the words ABOLISH THE LAW with undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it and the words FULFILL THE LAW with to properly interpret the Torah so that people can obey it as God really intends.

Let's see if Lois' definitions fit well in the context:

17“Do not think that I have come to undermine the Law, by misinterpreting it, or the Prophets; I have not come to undermine them but to to properly interpret the Torah so that people can obey it as God really intends. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I hope you are right, Grace! Initially I thought that Lois' definition of "ABOLISH THE LAW" would be inconsistent with "THE LAW WILL NOT DISAPPEAR" (or PASS AWAY). I thought that the same Greek word was used both for ABOLISH and DISAPPEAR, but now I see that there are two different words: BE ABOLISHED - καταλῦσαι ; DISAPPEAR - παρέλθῃ.

If the same Greek word were used both for ABOLISH and DISAPPEAR, then Lois' definition of ABOLISH would not make sense.
I'm covered in goosebumps reading that. I know its just the Spirit speaking in me personally and not for anyone else, but He washed over me in agreement with the truth of what you wrote. Especially the blue print. :)
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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#38
I haven't been bewitched -- I'm just asking you folks your opinion about Lois Tverberg's statements. See below:

Lois A. Tverberg says in one of her books that "to fulfill the Law" is a Rabbinic Idiom that is still in use today.

What she writes makes sense because no Jew ever asked Jesus: ‘Lord, what do you mean by “fulfill the Law” ‘? Most probably everybody in Judea knew the meaning of those words.

According to Lois:

“Fulfill the Law” means to properly interpret the Torah so that people can obey it as God really intends.

"Abolish the Law" means to undermine the Torah by misinterpreting it.

Do you agree with Lois A. Tverberg or not?

Maybe you can help us, since you were born in Israel and probably speak Hebrew.
I think that truehebrew was posting to desertrose, Marcelo.
 
Feb 28, 2016
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#40
upon 'conversion', Jesus put His 'TEN' into my heart; this is how my journey
will lead me into His Holy-ness, this I where my Love for Him comes into play...
this is where I can draw all of my courage and assurance from, by walking and
following where He leads in His Holy order, in order to be able to 'walk in His Holy Light'...