What does scripure mean by "under the law"?

[Blik]

i have some agreement in principle with some things in your comment but id have to have you find the support for this part.

in other words, look back to my comment, and please show me the support you are mentioning, im always looking to learn some new things , from anyone who is willing....God bless

I have been there, done that. I was almost 80 when I first was presented with these explainations of scripture.

I knew scripture never disagreed wth itself, yet if you see Christ as having done away with the law then you must believe it does. I was determined to find the truth and I knew it was in scripture not in me. The search for truth took me months.

I simply can't take you through those months of searching. John Klien and Adam Spears live near me and helped direct my search. They are renowned scholars who spend their time in research and never assume answers. Tom Bradford's commentary on scripture also helped. He has spent years in the far east digging into ancient Hebrew and Hebrew history that the deep sea scrolls have helped bring to light.

I feel very confident that God created the world to operate for us to give us all fruits of the spirit through the law. It is our guidance established at creation.

Before Christ all gentiles had idols for Gods, they were part of thie country they lived in. This was also true before Paul met Christ for almost all Christians were Jews who were faithful to their culture. Paul's mission was to bring Christ to the gentiles. It was not to bring Jewish culture and ways to the gentiles and most of the New Testament is explaining this.

If something Paul teaches is not in agreement with scripture, then Paul must be discarded. Paul is complicated, even scripture says so. But God chose him to be an apostle, there isn't a chance that Paul is not to be followed. It is up to us to understand him.

 

[followjesus]

I have been there, done that. I was almost 80 when I first was presented with these explainations of scripture.

I knew scripture never disagreed wth itself, yet if you see Christ as having done away with the law then you must believe it does. I was determined to find the truth and I knew it was in scripture not in me. The search for truth took me months.

I simply can't take you through those months of searching. John Klien and Adam Spears live near me and helped direct my search. They are renowned scholars who spend their time in research and never assume answers. Tom Bradford's commentary on scripture also helped. He has spent years in the far east digging into ancient Hebrew and Hebrew history that the deep sea scrolls have helped bring to light.

I feel very confident that God created the world to operate for us to give us all fruits of the spirit through the law. It is our guidance established at creation.

Before Christ all gentiles had idols for Gods, they were part of thie country they lived in. This was also true before Paul met Christ for almost all Christians were Jews who were faithful to their culture. Paul's mission was to bring Christ to the gentiles. It was not to bring Jewish culture and ways to the gentiles and most of the New Testament is explaining this.

If something Paul teaches is not in agreement with scripture, then Paul must be discarded. Paul is complicated, even scripture says so. But God chose him to be an apostle, there isn't a chance that Paul is not to be followed. It is up to us to understand him.

ok well God bless, thanks for the converation !

 

[beta]

Please dont take my comments as arguing with yours, i sincerely have agreement to yours, the only thing i really disagree with, is that the Law of moses represents the ten commandments, and im honestly hoping you will add some scripture as to the rest of your comment because i agree with so much of it. and truly am looking to learn and share, sharpening each other is the design of God. Just trying to be clear, that im not at all disagreeing, only the linking of the ten commandments to the book of the Law.

My position of the ten commandments is they were valid before the book of the mosaic Law, after it, during Jesus minsitry on earth, after His death and resurrection, and will be forever. all im saying is the book of the Law is against us, the ten commandments are the Law of God, like a moral compass and paramiters for us to remain in Love, because Love is not just how we feel about another, or what we say, but much more how we treat others.....

I absolutely agree ! The law of Moses which are the commandments contained in ordinances/works are NOT to be linked/mixed with the 10 Commandments of God - for when GOD gave them to the people personally (the 10) He added no more Deut 5v22 consequently they are separate from the others given through Moses. Those who hear GOD will keep HIS Word spiritual and eternal, the same one's Jesus teaching us - to love God and neighbour.
If you lump them all together and abolish them 'as some do', they create hatred and disunity evidenced in ugly name calling and false accusations and stabbing in the heart....just for walking with Christ who always obeyed His Father whether in Word or Deed.

 

[Glozz]

God bless you Sir for your answer.

 

[beta]

God bless you Sir for your answer.

It is not clear who you are answering to but it seems you agree with 'respecting God's Commandments.

 

[gotime]

I agree, I see the Ten commandments as eternal in nature. They are the law of love in short hand so to speak. They preexisted Moses and still apply to this day. To not be under the law means one is no longer condemned for their sins once they repent. And that is so because Jesus took our place.

However Jesus did not come to make it ok to break the law of love. Hence the need to Repent/turn from sin and do right. HE came to take our place forgive us and impart His own life to us through the Spirit that we who chose Him will be come obedient to the law/we love God and man.

I think many would agree with this. However its often the Sabbath where I disagree with people.

Many say that it simply represented Jesus as our rest and thus a shadow. This I can not see in scripture considering the Sabbaths origin and context. It never was simply a shadow. it was and is a reality of creation before sin comes into the world. I am wondering if that is where the difference lies.

I have tried to wrap my head around where it is exactly that I can not see eye to eye with some of my brothers and sisters here on this issue when I can agree with so much of what they say.

I think that could be where we differ.

 

[JaumeJ]

I believe all know the difference between being under the law and living in the grace of Jesus Chrisst by His mercy.

The true question is, for me, what do people here intend to say when they tell the obedient children of God they are under the law? My frank belief when I see this as an accusation is the people using this terminology are actually acting as prosecuting attorneys for the sake of their own dark doctrines.

No one may say in the Holy Spirit that we are not to be obedient children as according to the Word.......

So what do those wandering minds intend when they make these alleations?

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi G7, Comments in blue.

I am most definitely calling the law of Moses a manifestation of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God had that tree in the garden and it was good. The eating of that tree brought forth it's fruit into the earth.

We were never meant to eat from that tree. We were meant to eat from the tree of life.

The law is the power or strength of sin. Where there is no law - there is no transgression. Satan didn't tell Eve to murder Adam - why?

Because there was no law that he could use to deceive her with in his deception. If satan wanted to end the human race - he would have told Eve to murder Adam and that would have worked for sure.

I encourage you to study out the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and you will see that the law is exactly that. The law is the knowledge of what is good and what is evil. It's plain as day when we read it.

Romans 2:12-16 talks about the whole world having the law in their hearts and that the Jews had it written down and expanded to show it's nature. Jesus then came and elevated the true intent of the law from "You have heard it said - do not commit adultery - but I say to you if you lust in your heart you have committed adultery."

I too said that the law is holy and good but it is not made for the righteous and the Christian has nothing to do with it because we live by the life of Christ in us now.

Here is a great teaching that discusses about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I always wondered what is so bad about knowing good and evil.

[video]http://www.bertiebrits.com/message/What-was-the-tree-of-Good-and-Evil-[/video]

 

[Grandpa]

I believe all know the difference between being under the law and living in the grace of Jesus Chrisst by His mercy.

The true question is, for me, what do people here intend to say when they tell the obedient children of God they are under the law? My frank belief when I see this as an accusation is the people using this terminology are actually acting as prosecuting attorneys for the sake of their own dark doctrines.

No one may say in the Holy Spirit that we are not to be obedient children as according to the Word.......

So what do those wandering minds intend when they make these alleations?

This is all brought up in Galatians.

You are not obedient because you "keep" the law.

You are obedient if you rest in Christ. Because it is His Work in you that causes you to be obedient.

If you turn back to your own work and your own understanding of the law you have fallen from His Grace. No matter how wise and knowledgeable you think you are.


It is abundantly obvious that very few know the difference between being under the law and resting in Christ.

The doctrine is called Christianity and Pharisees tried to make working at the Law a part of it since the beginning. It is not to be. (See Acts 15)

 

[Grace777x70]

I am most definitely calling the law of Moses a manifestation of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God had that tree in the garden and it was good. The eating of that tree brought forth it's fruit into the earth.

We were never meant to eat from that tree. We were meant to eat from the tree of life.



Here is a great teaching that discusses about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I always wondered what is so bad about knowing good and evil.

[video]http://www.bertiebrits.com/message/What-was-the-tree-of-Good-and-Evil-[/video]

Here is the youtube version which is easier to watch if anyone is interested in this subject.

[video=youtube;9Z67LYNd8kY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z67LYNd8kY[/video]

 

[Grandpa]

I feel very confident that God created the world to operate for us to give us all fruits of the spirit through the law. It is our guidance established at creation.

No, you missed the whole point of the bible.

Just like the Jews before you who rejected Christ. They thought the same thing.


The fruits of the Spirit come through Christ. They don't come through your understanding of what you think the Law is guiding you towards. This is explained over and over in the New Testament several different ways.

Hebrews 7:11 [FONT=&quot]If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

[/FONT]2 Corinthians 3:7-8
[FONT=&quot]7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Galatians 3:10-12
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.[/FONT]

 

[valiant]

The purpose of the law is to guide our lives and enable us to know what we should do. But as James says, we are to use it as a mirror, not as a means of salvation.

Once we start to be 'under the Law' (as a means of salvation) we soon learn that to offend one law is to be guilty of all. It crushes us. But Paul in Romans teaches us that the Christian is not 'under the law'. He is under grace. Because Christ has died fulfilling the law totally He has borne the judgment of the law for us. Thus we are dead to the law through the body of Christ so that we may be joined to another, even to Him who is raised from the dead, that we may serve in newness of Spirit not in the oldness of the letter.

 

[followjesus]

I absolutely agree ! The law of Moses which are the commandments contained in ordinances/works are NOT to be linked/mixed with the 10 Commandments of God - for when GOD gave them to the people personally (the 10) He added no more Deut 5v22 consequently they are separate from the others given through Moses. Those who hear GOD will keep HIS Word spiritual and eternal, the same one's Jesus teaching us - to love God and neighbour.
If you lump them all together and abolish them 'as some do', they create hatred and disunity evidenced in ugly name calling and false accusations and stabbing in the heart....just for walking with Christ who always obeyed His Father whether in Word or Deed.

amen , ALOT of people link the covenant law, with the Law of moses. One is eternal Based on the fact that its Gods writing, the other is handwriting of ordinance purposely directed by God to be a witness against those who break the commandments. earlier i was saying that they were placed inside the ark, and the book of the Law was placed beside the are as a witness against us in the Law. and related that to the little book taken by Jesus, opened By Him and given Back to the apostle. Gods presence was always above the ark of the covenant, and beside Him was the witness of the book of the Law against sinners.

Now beside the throne in Heaven ( where the poresence of God is ) we have an advocate FOR us who have at some time broken the commandments. Jesus the Living Word, replaced the witness against us having fulfilled it, and became the witness or ":advocate " for us, another thing that is quite opposite between new and old.

its really not anyone heres fault that the commandments get linked to the book of the Law, it got off course Long ago with the different theological views of men speaking from a lack of the spirit, and then was spread through the churches in different books written by those seeking to revolutionize Gods Word. like the enemy in eden, and like he tried to do to Jesus, its very easy to take partial truths that are flawed because of seeing whats not there, or not seeing what is there, and twist them enough to get us off course in our understanding of Gods word.

any subject really can easily be a source of conflict, which digresses rather wuickly because both sides are speaking from what was indoctrinated from years of our learning beforehand, so when we see things that dont jive in the word, then its very hard for us to part with our view. false doctrines and misconstrued points of scripture, are the most dangerous thing to christians, it was satans method in the beginning, in Jesus day, during the apostles days, and today, and i truly believe will be his way tomorrow. to deceive people with what God has said, by omitting parts and adding parts and serving to confuse and change our minds from what God has clearly said

 

[Blik]

I agree, I see the Ten commandments as eternal in nature. They are the law of love in short hand so to speak. They preexisted Moses and still apply to this day. To not be under the law means one is no longer condemned for their sins once they repent. And that is so because Jesus took our place.

However Jesus did not come to make it ok to break the law of love. Hence the need to Repent/turn from sin and do right. HE came to take our place forgive us and impart His own life to us through the Spirit that we who chose Him will be come obedient to the law/we love God and man.

I think many would agree with this. However its often the Sabbath where I disagree with people.

Many say that it simply represented Jesus as our rest and thus a shadow. This I can not see in scripture considering the Sabbaths origin and context. It never was simply a shadow. it was and is a reality of creation before sin comes into the world. I am wondering if that is where the difference lies.

I have tried to wrap my head around where it is exactly that I can not see eye to eye with some of my brothers and sisters here on this issue when I can agree with so much of what they say.

I think that could be where we differ.

I think it relates back to the gentile/jew problem.

The problem Paul was addressing was that the Jews were the Christians and they had centuries of looking at gentiles as idol worshippers. Scripture had taught them not to take on any of their ideas and ways or allow them near the synagogues. To join their worship they had to become Jews. NT scripture is addressing that problem.

The book of Romans tells how this should be solved through the eyes of the Lord. We are to become one people without the laws of ritual coming between us. That has never nappened.

At first, the Christian church fathers were Jews all wih deep understanding of scripture. They accepted Christ as God, spoken of in the OT as they had no NT. In 132 at the Bar Kokhba revolt the Romans massacred so many Jews the church fathers were wiped out. The men who took over the church had backgrounds of pagan learning and began bringing some of it into Christian doctrine. These men took what Paul taught and turned it into anti-seminite doctrine. They disregarded some of scripture giving themselves the right to change what God had told them.

Now, scripture is read through the eyes of our current culture instead of learning what it meant at the time it was written. Just as Jews wanted gentiles to become Jews to accept God, we want Jews to become gentiles to accept God. One lady wrote a book about how difficult it was to change to our church even though it was glorious to know Christ. She said being Jewish everything she did from eating to washing her hands was related to worship. Now, nothing of her routines related.

Now pagan ways are built in to our living, especially holidays and Sabbath. Because we are so forgiven of sin when we turn from it we are told that through Christ we need not be conserned about sin.

The Christian ago of the apostles began disappearing soon after Christ's crucifixion. The ago of Constantine soon came in and we are still in that age, just beginning to grow past it.

 

[Yahshua]

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

When a person is saved,and receive the Spirit,they do not want sin,hate sin,and want to represent goodness,and be Christlike,for to want to act that way,and mean it,they can abstain from sin,for they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,and have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

The Spirit will not lead anyone that holds unto sin,and does not want to abstain from sin.

A person led of the Spirit has all their sins forgiven,and does not sin,because they do not want to sin,so they are not under the law,which means the law cannot touch them for prosecution,for they are not breaking the law.

If they go back to sin,and hold unto sin,they are back under the law,and can be prosecuted by the law,until they repent of it,and get rid of the sin,then they are not under the law.

A person led of the Spirit might sin,but they will repent,get rid of it,and keep going in the Spirit.

A person not led of the Spirit will hold unto sin,and be in a dangerous position.

Not all people who claim Jesus has received the Spirit,which you will know them by their fruits.

People who say we cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect our relationship with Christ,will hold unto sin for they think they are alright despite their sin,how can they be led of the Spirit.

Amen. I love this passage in Galatians and agree with your words. And all I want to do with my reply is emphasize to the reader what this passage is NOT saying...

------

The Galatians passage does NOT say "against such [fruits of the spirit] the law of God is nullified". It is not pitting the law against the Spirit (for we know that the law is Spiritual). All we have to do is read it backwards (from conclusion to premise) and the meaning jumps out at us as clear as day:


1. There is no law against "such".

2. "There is no law against what?"

3. There is no law against (having) love, joy, peace, (or being) longsuffering, (or having) gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. So there is no law (of God) against having the fruits of the Spirit.

4. But in contrast...there are laws (of God) against:

Adultery
Fornication
Uncleanness
Lasciviousness
Idolatry
Witchcraft
Hatred
Variance
Emulations
Wrath
Strife
Seditions
Heresies
Envyings
Murders
Drunkenness
Revellings

5. These are lusts of the flesh. So there are laws (of God) against the lusts of the flesh.

6. A person is under the law when they work the lusts of the flesh, because there are laws (of God) against the lusts of the flesh.

7. But one is not under the law who is lead by the Spirit, because there are no laws (of God) against having the fruits of the Spirit.

8. The flesh and the Spirit are directly opposed to each other.

------

By simply going backwards in the passage we can clearly see what the passage is saying. Those who are Christ's crucify their flesh and walk by the Spirit so as to not sin and then have any law (of God) against them. That's what "under the law" means; to be guilty of breaking it.

 

[followjesus]

Amen. I love this passage in Galatians and agree with your words. And all I want to do with my reply is emphasize to the reader what this passage is NOT saying...

------

The Galatians passage does NOT say "against such [fruits of the spirit] the law of God is nullified". It is not pitting the law against the Spirit (for we know that the law is Spiritual). All we have to do is read it backwards (from conclusion to premise) and the meaning jumps out at us as clear as day:


1. There is no law against "such".

2. "There is no law against what?"

3. There is no law against (having) love, joy, peace, (or being) longsuffering, (or having) gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. So there is no law (of God) against having the fruits of the Spirit.

4. But in contrast...there are laws (of God) against:

Adultery
Fornication
Uncleanness
Lasciviousness
Idolatry
Witchcraft
Hatred
Variance
Emulations
Wrath
Strife
Seditions
Heresies
Envyings
Murders
Drunkenness
Revellings

5. These are lusts of the flesh. So there are laws (of God) against the lusts of the flesh.

6. A person is under the law when they work the lusts of the flesh, because there are laws (of God) against the lusts of the flesh.

7. But one is not under the law who is lead by the Spirit, because there are no laws (of God) against having the fruits of the Spirit.

8. The flesh and the Spirit are directly opposed to each other.

------

By simply going backwards in the passage we can clearly see what the passage is saying. Those who are Christ's crucify their flesh and walk by the Spirit so as to not sin and then have any law (of God) against them. That's what "under the law" means; to be guilty of breaking it.

good stuff there. its sort of like our laws in society, if your not out robbing people, the law we have against theft and its punishment, works for us and not against us. but if we are out stealing, then the Law is against us and its punishment is applicable

 

[KALYNA18]

Just want to say some stuff, Galatians 6:2 Share each other's burdens, and in this way obey the law of Christ. NLB

Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. ESV.

IDK but this is what I think. In the Kingdom of God, there must be like a law, as in every governing Body.

I think Jesus is saying, pray for one another, bear one another's burdens. He said he didn't come to abolish the Law and the Prophets. I know the OT rules were done away with.
He said, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. This to me is like a Law. My op. so if you break that
then there's the penalty, and not like a fine, or ticket. It's the consequences we might have to pay, for being disobedient to the commands, words, of the Lord. So there is my 2 cents. THe Law, to me is like a command. Maybe so maybe no. God bless.

 

[KALYNA18]

Just want to say some stuff, Galatians 6:2 Share each other's burdens, and in this way obey the law of Christ. NLB

Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. ESV.

IDK but this is what I think. In the Kingdom of God, there must be like a law, as in every governing Body.

I think Jesus is saying, pray for one another, bear one another's burdens. He said he didn't come to abolish the Law and the Prophets. I know the OT rules were done away with.
He said, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. This to me is like a Law. My op. so if you break that
then there's the penalty, and not like a fine, or ticket. It's the consequences we might have to pay, for being disobedient to the commands, words, of the Lord. So there is my 2 cents. THe Law, to me is like a command. Maybe so maybe no. God bless.

 

[followjesus]

Just want to say some stuff, Galatians 6:2 Share each other's burdens, and in this way obey the law of Christ. NLB

Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. ESV.

IDK but this is what I think. In the Kingdom of God, there must be like a law, as in every governing Body.

I think Jesus is saying, pray for one another, bear one another's burdens. He said he didn't come to abolish the Law and the Prophets. I know the OT rules were done away with.
He said, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. This to me is like a Law. My op. so if you break that
then there's the penalty, and not like a fine, or ticket. It's the consequences we might have to pay, for being disobedient to the commands, words, of the Lord. So there is my 2 cents. THe Law, to me is like a command. Maybe so maybe no. God bless.

"Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. "


Luke 10:And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. 29But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

30And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.31And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

BUT a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, 34And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. 36Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? 37And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise."


The samaritan, was bearing the burden of the "certain man" who fell among thieves as the others, tho religious, did not.

whenever we talk of Love, we need to keep in mind...

1 john 3:18 "My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in DEED and in truth."

whether we are talking of Loving God, or one another, our actions speak the truth of Love

 

[pjharrison]

To be under the law rather than under Christ we must obey every law, if we are under Christ we can go to Him for forgiveness if we mess up but we know how the Lord loves us so He instructs us in how to live well in the world as He creaed it. When we understand that and return that love we listen. Scripture puts it this way "If you love me you will obey----".

All His guidance can be summed up with the word love. In the next world there is no room for people who would harm others with lies, theft, gossip, etc. If we are under the law and not Christ we have no forgiveness, we cannot be allowed to live on.

Under the law means , you have to refer back to the ten commandment to know if you are sinning. If you are under Grace, you just know if you are sinning.