What happens if a believer decides he hates God and does not want to go to heaven?
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Question for any of you that believe in eternal security:
This is an honest question that I haven't been able to figure out and am wondering how you would view it:
Most of the answers given to this poll were (D): that this person could not have been born again in the first place
It seems to me that this answer makes our assurance of salvation dependent upon our works! Because if I truly do not do good works, then I have cause to doubt I was ever truly saved in the first place. So long as I continue in good works I can keep my assurance of salvation.
It seems to me the person who really believes in "once saved always saved" must either answer this question (a) or (c) or if answering (d) realize that the doctrine of "once saved always saved" means our assurance of salvation is based on our works.
I am not trying to be contentious, just trying to understand. Can someone give me a good explanation? It's fine if you send me a private message. I would be glad to correspond with your privately if you can explain this to me in civil terms.
If my question is not clear, please ask questions . . .
This is an honest question that I haven't been able to figure out and am wondering how you would view it:
Most of the answers given to this poll were (D): that this person could not have been born again in the first place
It seems to me that this answer makes our assurance of salvation dependent upon our works! Because if I truly do not do good works, then I have cause to doubt I was ever truly saved in the first place. So long as I continue in good works I can keep my assurance of salvation.
It seems to me the person who really believes in "once saved always saved" must either answer this question (a) or (c) or if answering (d) realize that the doctrine of "once saved always saved" means our assurance of salvation is based on our works.
I am not trying to be contentious, just trying to understand. Can someone give me a good explanation? It's fine if you send me a private message. I would be glad to correspond with your privately if you can explain this to me in civil terms.
If my question is not clear, please ask questions . . .
I can only answer this question by telling you what I feel toward Jesus.
[h=3]A Sinful Woman Forgiven[/h]36 Then one of the Pharisees asked Him to eat with him. And He went to the Pharisee’s house, and sat down to eat. 37 And behold, a woman in the city who was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at the table in the Pharisee’s house, brought an alabaster flask of fragrant oil, 38 and stood at His feet behind Him weeping; and she began to wash His feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head; and she kissed His feet and anointed them with the fragrant oil. 39 Now when the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this,he spoke to himself, saying, “This Man, if He were a prophet, would know who and what manner of woman this is who is touching Him, for she is a sinner.”
40 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.”
So he said, “Teacher, say it.”
41 “There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?”
43 Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.”
And He said to him, “You have rightly judged.” 44 Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head.45 You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. 46 You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. 47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”
48 Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
50 Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”
You see, the key is that my salvation is based on HIS faithfulness NOT mine HIS finished work NOT my work. HE gave me the gift of faith to believe in Him. He said He would be the author and finisher of of my faith. He said he would never leave me nor forsake me. He said I love Him ONLY because He loved me 1st. And I LOVE Him!!! And am beyond grateful for what HE has done for me and to me.
I don't understand the question. Why would a believer "hate" God and not want to go to heaven? It just doesn't compute.
[h=3]A Sinful Woman Forgiven[/h]36 Then one of the Pharisees asked Him to eat with him. And He went to the Pharisee’s house, and sat down to eat. 37 And behold, a woman in the city who was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at the table in the Pharisee’s house, brought an alabaster flask of fragrant oil, 38 and stood at His feet behind Him weeping; and she began to wash His feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head; and she kissed His feet and anointed them with the fragrant oil. 39 Now when the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this,he spoke to himself, saying, “This Man, if He were a prophet, would know who and what manner of woman this is who is touching Him, for she is a sinner.”
40 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.”
So he said, “Teacher, say it.”
41 “There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?”
43 Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.”
And He said to him, “You have rightly judged.” 44 Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head.45 You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. 46 You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. 47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”
48 Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
50 Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”
You see, the key is that my salvation is based on HIS faithfulness NOT mine HIS finished work NOT my work. HE gave me the gift of faith to believe in Him. He said He would be the author and finisher of of my faith. He said he would never leave me nor forsake me. He said I love Him ONLY because He loved me 1st. And I LOVE Him!!! And am beyond grateful for what HE has done for me and to me.
I don't understand the question. Why would a believer "hate" God and not want to go to heaven? It just doesn't compute.
amen 
i've shared this before, so forgive me if you've heard it.
when our friends Joe and Anna had their second daughter, Olivia was born with Trisomy 18. Down's is Trisomy 21, and the lower the number of the chromosome, the more the anomalies in the child. Olivia had three holes in her heart just for starters.
Anna fought like a tiger to keep her child alive for four months, yet the Lord took Olivia Home.
after we watched that tiny pink coffin being lowered into the ground, Anna couldn't bring herself to come to church for months.
but she visited for coffee regularly, and one day i asked her how she was doing.
she said she was angry, confused, and desperately sad. but she hadn't completely lost faith.
"He's God. what am i gonna do, break up with Him?" (that's Anna's sense of humor... i love her so much)
through the severest trials, the Lord keeps His own.
i've shared this before, so forgive me if you've heard it.
when our friends Joe and Anna had their second daughter, Olivia was born with Trisomy 18. Down's is Trisomy 21, and the lower the number of the chromosome, the more the anomalies in the child. Olivia had three holes in her heart just for starters.
Anna fought like a tiger to keep her child alive for four months, yet the Lord took Olivia Home.
after we watched that tiny pink coffin being lowered into the ground, Anna couldn't bring herself to come to church for months.
but she visited for coffee regularly, and one day i asked her how she was doing.
she said she was angry, confused, and desperately sad. but she hadn't completely lost faith.
"He's God. what am i gonna do, break up with Him?" (that's Anna's sense of humor... i love her so much)
through the severest trials, the Lord keeps His own.
amen
i've shared this before, so forgive me if you've heard it.
when our friends Joe and Anna had their second daughter, Olivia was born with Trisomy 18. Down's is Trisomy 21, and the lower the number of the chromosome, the more the anomalies in the child. Olivia had three holes in her heart just for starters.
Anna fought like a tiger to keep her child alive for four months, yet the Lord took Olivia Home.
after we watched that tiny pink coffin being lowered into the ground, Anna couldn't bring herself to come to church for months.
but she visited for coffee regularly, and one day i asked her how she was doing.
she said she was angry, confused, and desperately sad. but she hadn't completely lost faith.
"He's God. what am i gonna do, break up with Him?" (that's Anna's sense of humor... i love her so much)
through the severest trials, the Lord keeps His own.
i've shared this before, so forgive me if you've heard it.
when our friends Joe and Anna had their second daughter, Olivia was born with Trisomy 18. Down's is Trisomy 21, and the lower the number of the chromosome, the more the anomalies in the child. Olivia had three holes in her heart just for starters.
Anna fought like a tiger to keep her child alive for four months, yet the Lord took Olivia Home.
after we watched that tiny pink coffin being lowered into the ground, Anna couldn't bring herself to come to church for months.
but she visited for coffee regularly, and one day i asked her how she was doing.
she said she was angry, confused, and desperately sad. but she hadn't completely lost faith.
"He's God. what am i gonna do, break up with Him?" (that's Anna's sense of humor... i love her so much)
through the severest trials, the Lord keeps His own.
I heard this one time that has stuck with me in the darkest moments in life.
" Sometimes in order to experience the peace that passes all understanding - we have to be willing to give up our right to understand."
The OP leaves out a key aspect of God's love toward us. God will never force us to do anything we do not want to do. He never overrides our free will. None of the options available are entirely correct.
As to the "he was never saved to begin with" rhetoric... well I'm not going to judge that person's salvation status as that is the only judgment we are expressly told never to make. God gives the church warnings against apostasy. Who are we to tell God that what He has told us is not true and isn't possible?
As to the "he was never saved to begin with" rhetoric... well I'm not going to judge that person's salvation status as that is the only judgment we are expressly told never to make. God gives the church warnings against apostasy. Who are we to tell God that what He has told us is not true and isn't possible?
amen
i've shared this before, so forgive me if you've heard it.
when our friends Joe and Anna had their second daughter, Olivia was born with Trisomy 18. Down's is Trisomy 21, and the lower the number of the chromosome, the more the anomalies in the child. Olivia had three holes in her heart just for starters.
Anna fought like a tiger to keep her child alive for four months, yet the Lord took Olivia Home.
after we watched that tiny pink coffin being lowered into the ground, Anna couldn't bring herself to come to church for months.
but she visited for coffee regularly, and one day i asked her how she was doing.
she said she was angry, confused, and desperately sad. but she hadn't completely lost faith.
"He's God. what am i gonna do, break up with Him?" (that's Anna's sense of humor... i love her so much)
through the severest trials, the Lord keeps His own.
i've shared this before, so forgive me if you've heard it.
when our friends Joe and Anna had their second daughter, Olivia was born with Trisomy 18. Down's is Trisomy 21, and the lower the number of the chromosome, the more the anomalies in the child. Olivia had three holes in her heart just for starters.
Anna fought like a tiger to keep her child alive for four months, yet the Lord took Olivia Home.
after we watched that tiny pink coffin being lowered into the ground, Anna couldn't bring herself to come to church for months.
but she visited for coffee regularly, and one day i asked her how she was doing.
she said she was angry, confused, and desperately sad. but she hadn't completely lost faith.
"He's God. what am i gonna do, break up with Him?" (that's Anna's sense of humor... i love her so much)
through the severest trials, the Lord keeps His own.
In Matthew 10:32-33, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven.
Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the means of their salvation. The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisees) will be denied by Christ before the Father.
Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the means of their salvation. The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisees) will be denied by Christ before the Father.
hi, Chester
maybe this will help you? i pray it will be so.
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. (Jn 6:37-40)
that's a Promise you can take to the bank!
maybe this will help you? i pray it will be so.
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. (Jn 6:37-40)
that's a Promise you can take to the bank!
B
This is strang " Poll " .
Christianity never was a democacy. We don't get a vote.
Thete are 3 kinds of believers.
1.An unbeliever
2. True believer
3. Make believer
The bible days
Pro 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death
Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates
The meanong of reprobate
Strong's Definition: From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected ; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate
I have seen and meet reprobate in the church. Once called and now demonized.
Christianity never was a democacy. We don't get a vote.
Thete are 3 kinds of believers.
1.An unbeliever
2. True believer
3. Make believer
The bible days
Pro 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death
Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates
The meanong of reprobate
Strong's Definition: From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected ; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate
I have seen and meet reprobate in the church. Once called and now demonized.
hi, Chester
maybe this will help you? i pray it will be so.
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. (Jn 6:37-40)
that's a Promise you can take to the bank!
maybe this will help you? i pray it will be so.
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. (Jn 6:37-40)
that's a Promise you can take to the bank!
Ah! but you don't get my question - maybe I'm not making myself clear - I at this moment in time have 100% assurance of salvation. If I would die right now, I know my eternal reward and destiny! And it is because I have my faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ and his death (blood) and resurrection.
But If I adopt the belief of "once saved always saved" then it seems to me that suddenly my basis for assurance of salvation would switch to my works. Most people tell me that if a believer rejects God, quits serving him, and turns his back on God: then this is most likely evidence that he was never born again in the first place. "A true believer wouldn't do this," I am told. Thus if I would quit doing good works for long enough (and bad enough) then I have reason to doubt I am a believer. That seems to me like reliance on works for assurance of salvation.
thank you for clarifying. that's an unusual perspective on eternal security, in my limited experience.
we who hold to eternal security (aka OSAS) do so because we've been persuaded by the Word of God that it's not our works that keep us secure, but rather the Work of Christ on our behalf.
i know many say, 'oh, no that's dangerous! if you think you're secure in Christ, you'll fail to do the good works God has prepared for you!'
but i wonder, how many works are enough? if you fail to do them, how long in that state is too long and now your salvation is forfeit? these are questions for which i can find no Biblical answer.
i know believers who have gotten angry at God and stopped seeking Him for a time.
(i have been one)
yet the Lord is faithful to us, and HE brings us back to Himself. this is my testimony.
i really like that you said you have faith in the finished Work of Christ.
can you explain to me what that means to you?
that's an unusual perspective on eternal security, in my limited experience.we who hold to eternal security (aka OSAS) do so because we've been persuaded by the Word of God that it's not our works that keep us secure, but rather the Work of Christ on our behalf.
i know many say, 'oh, no that's dangerous! if you think you're secure in Christ, you'll fail to do the good works God has prepared for you!'
but i wonder, how many works are enough? if you fail to do them, how long in that state is too long and now your salvation is forfeit? these are questions for which i can find no Biblical answer.
i know believers who have gotten angry at God and stopped seeking Him for a time.
(i have been one
)yet the Lord is faithful to us, and HE brings us back to Himself. this is my testimony.
i really like that you said you have faith in the finished Work of Christ.
can you explain to me what that means to you?
Anyone notice that Chester never presents his position on these obtuse proposals?
Eternal salvation must by it's nature be eternal. To be eternal it must be divine.
I wonder what is in the heart that postulates such hypothetical nonsense.
To be touched by and converted by the love of God leaves no room for regret only hope in the promises made by the Savior. How can we say we trust Him if we doubt Him? Either Jesus has saved us or Jesus has not. It is evident that we cannot save ourselves so it's either Jesus or nothing.
A saved soul cannot hate Jesus only thing he can hate is sin which is ever present in this world.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Eternal salvation must by it's nature be eternal. To be eternal it must be divine.
I wonder what is in the heart that postulates such hypothetical nonsense.
To be touched by and converted by the love of God leaves no room for regret only hope in the promises made by the Savior. How can we say we trust Him if we doubt Him? Either Jesus has saved us or Jesus has not. It is evident that we cannot save ourselves so it's either Jesus or nothing.
A saved soul cannot hate Jesus only thing he can hate is sin which is ever present in this world.
For the cause of Christ
Roger