What Happens to an UNBAPTIZED believer?

[posthuman]

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

what part of, buried with him by baptism into death...do you not understand????
notice the red...have you been planted together with him????

?? i thought we were talking about whether baptism is literal crucified death, burial and resurrection, or whether baptism is only a "picture" or "likeness" of this.

• you said there is not even a hint of baptism being a 'picture' in Romans 6.
• i said said the scripture actually says it is "in the likeness of" the work of Christ.
• i asked you what exactly you think "likeness" means.
• you said a likeness cannot be the actual thing.
• you quoted the scripture that calls our baptism a likeness of the actual thing.
• you asked what i don't understand about "likeness" because i refuse to call H[SUB]2[/SUB]O the real thing.

i'll ask you again:
do you believe are we literally crucified, buried and resurrected by H[SUB]2[/SUB]O?
or do you believe baptism is an earthly picture of a spiritual reality?

 

[Cassian]

while we're on the subject, you didn't "refute" anything i said either, and haven't addressed how you can hold the view that H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptism and the sanctification and regeneration of the spirit are self-same, concurrent, unseparated and always simultaneous events.

all you did was pontificate about how "confused" i am in my "misunderstanding" and pretend that i think Cornelius is a Jew. not true, and not relevant. you just said "o that's gentile baptism, it's different" -- well, how so?

how about you explain the cognitive dissonance and lay off the accusations:

you say the Spirit and H[SUB]2[/SUB]O are inexorably linked.
Acts 10-11 says differently. John the Baptist says differently. Jesus says differently. Peter says differently.

what gives?

If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?
(Acts 11:17)

^ sure reads as though Peter considered these men "justified before God and man" before they were H[SUB]2[/SUB]O baptized, don't it??

Your dissonance is that you are not talking about the same thing. I explained that to you. But if you don't understand the explanation, just say so.

And, also, the baptism of Cornelius is NOT the baptism that scripture repeatedly mentions over and over which is for believers in the practice of entering Christ, His Body. The ONE baptism of Eph 4:5 and was emphasized in the Nicene Creed as well.

Please explain why you would think that baptism would not involve the Holy Spirit? The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a separate part of baptism and done with oil, in the NT is was done by "laying on of hands". Acts 8:14-17, 19:6.

Just so you understand, Cornelius was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, not baptism without water. Baptism followed, with water and the Spirit.

 

[newbirth]

?? i thought we were talking about whether baptism is literal crucified death, burial and resurrection, or whether baptism is only a "picture" or "likeness" of this.

• you said there is not even a hint of baptism being a 'picture' in Romans 6.
• i said said the scripture actually says it is "in the likeness of" the work of Christ.
• i asked you what exactly you think "likeness" means.
• you said a likeness cannot be the actual thing.
• you quoted the scripture that calls our baptism a likeness of the actual thing.
• you asked what i don't understand about "likeness" because i refuse to call H[SUB]2[/SUB]O the real thing.

i'll ask you again:
do you believe are we literally crucified, buried and resurrected by H[SUB]2[/SUB]O?
or do you believe baptism is an earthly picture of a spiritual reality?

scripture says we have been, through faith in the working of power of God... If the scripture says God did it... do you believe God?

Galatians 3:26-28King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[Kerry]

This is where stupidity meets the real thing, being baptized in Christ has nothing to do with water. Getting baptized in water means you got wet and nothing more. Okay it is an open show of what has happened inside and we should do it, But it doe's not make you a super Christian.

 

[newbirth]

This is where stupidity meets the real thing, being baptized in Christ has nothing to do with water. Getting baptized in water means you got wet and nothing more. Okay it is an open show of what has happened inside and we should do it, But it doe's not make you a super Christian.

if it means nothing but just getting wet, then why should we do it...? Christ does not ask us to do things that are not necessary ...it seem like you are saying ..lets do it just in case it must be done so we have all bases covered...

 

[Kerry]

if it means nothing but just getting wet, then why should we do it...? Christ does not ask us to do things that are not necessary ...it seem like you are saying ..lets do it just in case it must be done so we have all bases covered...

No, that is not what I'm saying, but if your faith is in getting wet then you are doomed. It is a matter of where your faith is. Is it in what you do or what God did for you. That is the question. If it's what we do then why the cross?

 

[Alligator]

This is where stupidity meets the real thing, being baptized in Christ has nothing to do with water. Getting baptized in water means you got wet and nothing more. Okay it is an open show of what has happened inside and we should do it, But it doe's not make you a super Christian.

if it means nothing but just getting wet, then why should we do it...? Christ does not ask us to do things that are not necessary ...it seem like you are saying ..lets do it just in case it must be done so we have all bases covered...

Exactly, if it's just getting wet, why do it. Maybe 'you would like to tell us what it means and how you are Baptised into Christ if not by water. And remember, baptize means to immerse. Just because rsomething may seem illogical to you,
it may not be to God

 

[newbirth]

No, that is not what I'm saying, but if your faith is in getting wet then you are doomed. It is a matter of where your faith is. Is it in what you do or what God did for you. That is the question. If it's what we do then why the cross?

so that you can do what you are supposed to do....we were slaves to sin ....because of what Christ did for us on the cross...i we believe ....we can become free from the bondage of sin that we should no longer continue in sin but live our lives in obedience to him...but how can you do that if you disobey the first things he said to do after you believe...repent and be baptised unto the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the HS

 

[posthuman]

so that you can do what you are supposed to do....we were slaves to sin ....because of what Christ did for us on the cross...i we believe ....we can become free from the bondage of sin that we should no longer continue in sin but live our lives in obedience to him...but how can you do that if you disobey the first things he said to do after you believe...repent and be baptised unto the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the HS

no one has said we should disobey the Lord or that we should not be baptized with H[SUB]2[/SUB]O.

we have been patiently (and sometimes exasperatingly) trying to explain that H[SUB]2[/SUB]O is not what saves or regenerates you - it is the blood of Christ, and nothing else, that is able to remit sin, and the Holy Spirit, not dampness, that regenerates us and seals our hope & redemption.

 

[Atwood]

be baptised

What do you mean by "baptised," NewB? You mean immersed in water?
What about those who trust Christ as Savior, Believe in the Son of God, but only get sprinkled? Will they be roasted & toasted in the Lake of Fire with the weeping & gnashing of teeth?

 

[Atwood]

Exactly, if it's just getting wet, why do it. Maybe 'you would like to tell us what it means and how you are Baptised into Christ if not by water. And remember, baptize means to immerse. Just because rsomething may seem illogical to you,
it may not be to God

So Alligator, what happens to the man who believes in the Son of God, but gets sprinkled & never immersed?

Does he roast in the Lake of Fire, gnashing of teeth, etc.?

 

[Atwood]

Let it again be noted that while heretics may shuck & jive,
no one has yet posted any verse to establish that an unbaptized believer is condemned.

An unbaptized believer cannot be condemned because the word says "Whosoever believes . . . not perish, but have everlasting life." Whosoever rules it out. For Whosoever implies that all believers have everlasting life, regardless of anything else whatsoever.

And there are a plethora of verses offering to man salvation just for believing/having faith in the Lord Jesus.

 

[Atwood]

scripture says we have been, through faith in the working of power of God... If the scripture says God did it... do you believe God?

Galatians 3:26-28King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

What do you mean by baptized, NewB?

If a man is sprinkled does He go to Hell?

Note that being immersed into Christ is not being immersed into water.
What do you think of Romans 13 where believers are told to put on Christ? Do you think that means to go get dipped in water again? And what is making provision for the flesh? It contrasts with putting on Christ.

 

[Atwood]

Still no Bible Verse Can be given that condemns the unbaptized believer.

The ONE baptism of Eph 4:5 and was emphasized in the Nicene Creed as well.

The Nicene Creed does not mention baptism.[/quote]

Please explain why you would think that baptism would not involve the Holy Spirit?

Scripture contrasts the two; the medium is different. The Holy Spirit is not water.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a separate part of baptism and done with oil, in the NT is was done by "laying on of hands". Acts 8:14-17, 19:6.

Your verses do not prove your claim. That is your fantasy.

 

[Alligator]

So Alligator, what happens to the man who believes in the Son of God, but gets sprinkled & never immersed?

Does he roast in the Lake of Fire, gnashing of teeth, etc.?

i have already answered this question for you once. If he is sprinkled, his baptism is of no effect because he was not spiritually baptized.

 

[posthuman]

i have already answered this question for you once. If he is sprinkled, his baptism is of no effect because he was not spiritually baptized.

hey! i agree with you on that!! yay!!

one man sprinkling another with H[SUB]2[/SUB]O does not a spiritual baptism make!

what do you think of this verse? does God speak literally of H[SUB]2[/SUB]O or figuratively of spirit?
because here is a clear example of sprinkling making clean.

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean;
I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.
(Ezekiel 36:25)

(there is also in another place the water mingled with ashes of the red heifer, which is sprinkled for ceremonial cleansing)

 

[Atwood]

i have already answered this question for you once. If he is sprinkled, his baptism is of no effect because he was not spiritually baptized.

You seem to imply that the sprinkled is damned. Is it fair to say that you are afraid to say it out right?

You still don't answer the question. Does the sprinkled man who believes go to Hell?
If He comes to believe in the Lord Jesus on Monday, but the preacher doesn't schedule the dunking until next Sunday, is he damned during that week?

 

[Atwood]

I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean;
I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.
(Ezekiel 36:25)

Does that include the idol of water, worshipping water as your savior?

 

[Alligator]

You seem to imply that the sprinkled is damned. Is it fair to say that you are afraid to say it out right?

You still don't answer the question. Does the sprinkled man who believes go to Hell?
If He comes to believe in the Lord Jesus on Monday, but the preacher doesn't schedule the dunking until next Sunday, is he damned during that week?

I told you I'm not the judge but I would say he is doomed to hell. Is that clear enouhj
for you?

 

[newbirth]

What do you mean by "baptised," NewB? You mean immersed in water?
What about those who trust Christ as Savior, Believe in the Son of God, but only get sprinkled? Will they be roasted & toasted in the Lake of Fire with the weeping & gnashing of teeth?

God told King Saul to kill all the Amalakites and destroy all their livestock...but Saul saved the king and the fatted calf and sheep...and he was rejected...God say baptise you say sprinkle...are you testing God???