What if you die before water baptism?

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jamessb

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Feb 10, 2024
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Can you be more specific about what you mean by "widely" believed? Widely believed by whom? I assume you have statistics upon which you base this assertion.
Although the vast majority of later Greek manuscripts contain Mark 16:9-20, the Gospel of Mark ends at verse 8 in two of the oldest and most respected manuscripts, the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus.

Dave Miller, PhD: In ascertaining the genuineness of a textual variant, several factors are taken into consideration. The external evidence of age and geographical diversity of Greek manuscripts, ancient versions, and patristic citations are examined. Internal evidence is also weighed, taking into account transcriptional and intrinsic probabilities. The latter criterion centers on the style and vocabulary of the author in the book, as well as the usage of the author elsewhere and in the gospel accounts (cf. Metzger, 1978, pp. 209ff.).

The most persuasive piece of evidence that prompts some textual scholars to discount Mark 16:9-20 as genuine is the internal evidence. Though the Alands conceded that the “longer Marcan ending” actually “reads an absolutely convincing text” (1987, p. 287), in fact, the internal evidence weighs more heavily than the external evidence in the minds of many of those who support omission of the verses."

Peter M. Head: "The two earliest complete manuscripts of Mark in Greek (copied in the fourth century) do not contain the Longer Ending of Mark and clearly end their text at Mark 16:8 ... The contents, vocabulary, and “awkward fit” of the Longer Ending in relation to Mark 16:1-8 suggests that this was not the authorial ending to Mark’s Gospel ... The Shorter Ending (found with the Longer Ending in an interesting range of witnesses) only makes sense as an addition to a text of Mark that ended at 16:8".

If you want to read about it at length from a respected Biblical authority (John MacArthur) ... https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/41-85/the-fitting-end-to-marks-gospel
 

ResidentAlien

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Apr 21, 2021
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Although the vast majority of later Greek manuscripts contain Mark 16:9-20, the Gospel of Mark ends at verse 8 in two of the oldest and most respected manuscripts, the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus.

Dave Miller, PhD: In ascertaining the genuineness of a textual variant, several factors are taken into consideration. The external evidence of age and geographical diversity of Greek manuscripts, ancient versions, and patristic citations are examined. Internal evidence is also weighed, taking into account transcriptional and intrinsic probabilities. The latter criterion centers on the style and vocabulary of the author in the book, as well as the usage of the author elsewhere and in the gospel accounts (cf. Metzger, 1978, pp. 209ff.).

The most persuasive piece of evidence that prompts some textual scholars to discount Mark 16:9-20 as genuine is the internal evidence. Though the Alands conceded that the “longer Marcan ending” actually “reads an absolutely convincing text” (1987, p. 287), in fact, the internal evidence weighs more heavily than the external evidence in the minds of many of those who support omission of the verses."

Peter M. Head: "The two earliest complete manuscripts of Mark in Greek (copied in the fourth century) do not contain the Longer Ending of Mark and clearly end their text at Mark 16:8 ... The contents, vocabulary, and “awkward fit” of the Longer Ending in relation to Mark 16:1-8 suggests that this was not the authorial ending to Mark’s Gospel ... The Shorter Ending (found with the Longer Ending in an interesting range of witnesses) only makes sense as an addition to a text of Mark that ended at 16:8".

If you want to read about it at length from a respected Biblical authority (John MacArthur) ... https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/41-85/the-fitting-end-to-marks-gospel
All that said, what it boils down to is a few textual critics and scholars think the long ending of Mark isn't original. That's not exactly a wide sampling. These scholars are also the ones who think Sinaiticus and Vaticanus are the best and most reliable. Just because they sit in lofty ivory towers doesn't mean they're right.
 

Bob-Carabbio

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Jun 24, 2020
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I'm new here. So, is this a forum of Charismatics?
Some of us IS, and Some of us Ain't.

Personally, I was Born again as the result of Southern Baptist outreach in '63, and "Baptized in the Holy Spirit" (to use Assembly of God vernacular) in '73. I ran with Charismatics during the decade of the '70s. Presently (and for most of the last 60 years) I've been a member of the Assembly of God denomination.
 
Dec 18, 2023
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Some of us IS, and Some of us Ain't.

Personally, I was Born again as the result of Southern Baptist outreach in '63, and "Baptized in the Holy Spirit" (to use Assembly of God vernacular) in '73. I ran with Charismatics during the decade of the '70s. Presently (and for most of the last 60 years) I've been a member of the Assembly of God denomination.
Mark 16:16

New International Version



16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
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With the Holy Spirit, we can laugh now without having to hear a joke.... it's Holy Spirit Laughter! It's wonderful when the Holy Spirit gives you a belly laugh for absolutely no reason... you just laugh, laugh, laugh! This is why I call myself "Lafftur." God has a wonderful sense of humor! :giggle:

The more I just let myself "enjoy" God... I realize I don't have to wait till I get to Heaven to enjoy Him.... I can enjoy God right now, on the Earth.

Try enjoying Him... you'll see how much fun God is and how much He enjoys YOU enjoying HIM! :love:(y)
You know, this is pretty amazing to see because I’ve said a similar concept in the first page about The Kingdom of. God being Here and Now.
So it’s amazing to see The Spirit lead people into similar paths but we might express ourselves differently.
 
Dec 18, 2023
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You know, this is pretty amazing to see because I’ve said a similar concept in the first page about The Kingdom of. God being Here and Now.
So it’s amazing to see The Spirit lead people into similar paths but we might express ourselves differently.
nope the only opinion your interested in is your own 😊
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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The thief on the cross wasn't baptized, yet Jesus told him that he would be with Him in paradise that day.
The NT rebirth was begun after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus prophesied about this see Luke 24:47.
 
Dec 18, 2023
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:ROFL:
What‘s your take on salvation?
Also let me know if we should order a beer or coffee during this exchange.
it's impossible to discuss anything with people who think mental health is a joke.
 

Eli1

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Apr 5, 2022
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it's impossible to discuss anything with people who think mental health is a joke.
Understood.
So you think that my comment to you is a mental health joke.
Take care buddy.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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We know that.
But Peter was not infallible..

The Scriptures records the errors that some read as commands of what we should do thinking they were infallible.

He made at times mistakes..
So will we all.
God wants us to become discerning through gaining knowledge and to mature in Christ
leaving behind what we used to assume was the right way because it was accepted by others readily.

Its why we have thousands of denominations today.
But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face,
for what he did was very wrong. When he first arrived, he ate with
the Gentile believers, who were not circumcised. But afterward, when
some friends of James came, Peter wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles
anymore. He was afraid of criticism from these people who insisted
on the necessity of circumcision. As a result, other Jewish believers
followed Peter’s hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their
hypocrisy." Galatians 2:11-13​



Peter became weak and gave into a well accepted religious trend of his day.
We can do the same, and have, as we matured along the way.

Christians have ended up doing stupid things thinking its to be expected because they believe
they can do no wrong as long as they feel its the right thing to do with others agreeing.

But... the Word does not agree.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord." Isaiah 55:8​

We have really messed up when groups agree in doing things "their way."
Water baptism was on the way out when the Church age began.
And, it was recorded about what they did in learning the new way
and having it finally sink in.

I wanted to be water baptized right after I got into the word..
I wanted right away to even be baptized in a bathtub if need be...

It took me years to learn knowledge of God's Word with greater understanding to see His way was not my way.

grace and peace ......
To suggest Peter promoted false doctrine is actually appalling. If that were so, and IT IS NOT, it would mean Jesus was ok with people being led away from the truth. Not Possible!

The word of God is going to judge all mankind. As such it's contents contain the truth whether you choose to believe it or not.
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
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no but you laughed when I suggested someone may be suffering with dementia.
You know, if you have something to say then say it clearly so I understand and respond to you and then you can move on with your day too.
It‘s a big busy forum.
Who are you talking about? Where and when?
 
Dec 18, 2023
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You know, if you have something to say then say it clearly so I understand and respond to you and then you can move on with your day too.
It‘s a big busy forum.
Who are you talking about? Where and when?
well your clearly not aware of your own behaviour, so have you had your mental health checked lately.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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Quoting from Mark 16 is risky, since it is widely believed that it was added to Mark's gospel later. Do you also believe that people can pick up poisonous snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all? It says so in Mark 16.
The scripture is not promoting snake handling and knowingly drinking poison. However, it reveals God's children are protected when those things happen out of our control. Acts chapter 28 gives an example of this truth:

"And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.

4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.

5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.

6 Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god."
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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The apostles were rapidly transitioning out from their deeply ingrained Jewish thinking
and needed to learn the revolutionary new ways of the Church age. In the beginning they
stayed with the old as the new way took over in spite of it.....

Water baptism (symbolic) was now being replaced by its reality (Spirit).

Please read carefully the following to see that they were told of the change coming that they neglected until it finally sunk in.

After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs
that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about
the kingdom of God. On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them
this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised,
which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few
days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Acts 1:3-5​

We all are ignorant for a season.
God understands it will happen.

Yet, God says we will cease to be called ignorant and will be called "stupid" if we fail to heed His corrections when they come.


Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates correction is stupid."


Proverbs 12:1
We hurt ourselves more than anything else when we refuse corrections that may shock us at first to consider but see what the Word was telling us all along.

We even will fight the corrections with rationalizations and having others backing us up in spite of what the Word says....
That is why only a few will be chosen to reign with Him. "Few are chosen, but many are saved (called).

grace and peace ............
As scripture reveals Paul was still baptizing individuals in water over 25+ years after the command was first given. The requirement to be baptized in water was never rescinded.