what is ur guys take on this?

[zone]

I'm sure you noted the word "tend". Both types celebrate both past and future, of course. It's a question of degree. As we have discussed, there is also a difference in the amount of emotion in the joy.

hi Ken.
yes, i saw the 'tend'. i do appreciate that. i know what you meant.

as for the amount of emotion, well...here's a sample of what its like at any lutheran assembly (the larger the assembly, the greater the effect of singing).

the whole assembly sings. it's pretty emotional for me

Hymn of Thanksgiving : The Bethel Lutheran Church Adult Choir : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive < click MP3 stream


since i can't really carry a tune, i'm grateful the Bible says this:

Psalm 100
1 Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands.
2 Serve the Lord with gladness: come before his presence with singing.
3 Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
4 Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.
5 For the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.

love z

 

[kenisyes]

hi Ken.
yes, i saw the 'tend'. i do appreciate that. i know what you meant.

as for the amount of emotion, well...here's a sample of what its like at any lutheran assembly (the larger the assembly, the greater the effect of singing).

the whole assembly sings. it's pretty emotional for me

Hymn of Thanksgiving : The Bethel Lutheran Church Adult Choir : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive < click MP3 stream


since i can't really carry a tune, i'm grateful the Bible says this:

Psalm 100
1 Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands.
2 Serve the Lord with gladness: come before his presence with singing.
3 Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
4 Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.
5 For the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.

love z

Their hearts are certainly in it. And that fact is communicated. The difference we are discussing is between this and the repetative choruses, which this is not. Have you ever felt the power of God physically present in a church? Our prayer group has it every Tuesday. Many people say they get it in their churches periodically. I know you can say it's subjective, but so is my feeling of these people's hearts. I felt it and they touched mine. The difference is, I felt how wonderful God has been to me in the past. The other is feeling how wonderful God is now.

My wife wrote a hymn for a Lutheran church several years ago. We used it several times in the church. You can hear it at http://kenbehrens.com/Walking in Glory.zip but you will have to unzip the zip file. It is her group singing, not the Lutheran church. You want the track "You Are the King". The sheet music is there too. Not that this is an example of repetitive praise chorus. It's just the closest thing I have from Lutheran ministry to exchange with you.

 

[zone]

Their hearts are certainly in it. And that fact is communicated. The difference we are discussing is between this and the repetative choruses, which this is not. Have you ever felt the power of God physically present in a church? Our prayer group has it every Tuesday. Many people say they get it in their churches periodically. I know you can say it's subjective, but so is my feeling of these people's hearts. I felt it and they touched mine. The difference is, I felt how wonderful God has been to me in the past. The other is feeling how wonderful God is now.

My wife wrote a hymn for a Lutheran church several years ago. We used it several times in the church. You can hear it at http://kenbehrens.com/Walking in Glory.zip but you will have to unzip the zip file. It is her group singing, not the Lutheran church. You want the track "You Are the King". The sheet music is there too. Not that this is an example of repetitive praise chorus. It's just the closest thing I have from Lutheran ministry to exchange with you.

thanks Ken!
what a lovely gift. i'll open it today

i sure have felt the Presence of God in Church. i do every time i go.

He is with us whenever we gather in His Name to partake of His Good gifts and to Honor and Worship Him.

and He is with us as individual sons and daughters.

i have felt also His Presence even in a cold dark alley when i was alone. or when i later sat with someone else in a cold alley, for His Name's Sake.

or way back when...on the floor of my room after 700 days of blind groping, repentance and sorrow....without even the strength to say anything but "cast me into hell then...i can not go on any longer"....a Touch on my shoulder which filled me with strength and energy that was not possibly my own. i was told to stand up....to fear not < a messenger

and i did. that very moment. i was then led to seek and HEAR the Gospel < only ONE supernatural intervention...of many.

i never looked back.

 

[kenisyes]

thanks Ken!
what a lovely gift. i'll open it today

i sure have felt the Presence of God in Church. i do every time i go.

He is with us whenever we gather in His Name to partake of His Good gifts and to Honor and Worship Him.

and He is with us as individual sons and daughters.

i have felt also His Presence even in a cold dark alley when i was alone. or when i later sat with someone else in a cold alley, for His Name's Sake.

or way back when...on the floor of my room after 700 days of blind groping, repentance and sorrow....without even the strength to say anything but "cast me into hell then...i can not go on any longer"....a Touch on my shoulder which filled me with strength and energy that was not possibly my own. i was told to stand up....to fear not < a messenger

and i did. that very moment. i was then led to seek and HEAR the Gospel < only ONE supernatural intervention...of many.

i never looked back.

All of our recorded music is at my website. You can take whatever you like.

I have felt that too, and do often. I guess the words don't separate the two feelings, because I know there is another. The usual term is the "shekinah glory", but first, as you will point out, that is probably a scriptural mis-application of the term, and secondly does not help distinguish the two, unless you are a member of a continuationist church, and have experienced it.

I think as close as we can get is that continuationist churches have a fairly regular experience of the presence of God that cessationists do not have, except once in a great while by accident. They believe that the repetitive chorus reflects and celebrates this experience. Supplying a name for this experience is like explaining the color green to a blindman. I just don't have a word.

i have several 25MB mp3 files that my wife made of this type of music for a church in Maryland many years ago. I cannot share them online, because of copyright violations. If it's important enough to you to explore, I could upload one temporarily to my website, and send you the link privately.

 

[RickShafer]

3x's does not constitute vain repetitions.
I've seen the gifts in use without the repetitions.
We should beware of continual repetitions. God said it, Matt6:7.
It is easy to see the effects of hypnotic repetitions.

 

[kenisyes]

3x's does not constitute vain repetitions.
I've seen the gifts in use without the repetitions.
We should beware of continual repetitions. God said it, Matt6:7.
It is easy to see the effects of hypnotic repetitions.

Is 4x vain, how about 5x? I don't think I have ever heard a congregation go past 5. Unless it's like 3 times in the verse times 3 times verse repetition (like "I Exalt Thee")

The repetitions do not cause the gifts, anymore than having an organ causes better singing. Some congregations like the repetitions, because it helps them feel close to God. Just like some people liek an organ instead of a piano, as it makes them feel closer to God. My observation is that continuationist churches tend to prefer the repetitive choruses several times as much as the cessationist. Maybe they just prefer not to be bothered by looking at word sheets, so they can pray in their heads better at the same time.

I have seen the effects of hypnotic repetitions, too. [I don't mean the relaxing effect that occurs in most music, just because of the beat.] I mean a congregation hypnotized to the point of being able to be swayed irrationally. Never when I was part of the music ministry. I would not stay if that was happening.

 

[RickShafer]

I'd say it depends on the length of the musical phrase.
Certainly it is spiritually dictated. - (Either by God, or man, or mammon, or the devil)
There are no hard and fast rules.
Maybe a four measure phrase repeated a dozen times might qualify as 'vain' repetitions.
We see much of this in modern worship music. Not so much in the pre- 'U2' -ization of the worship pulpit.
So during worship, now people are jumping up and down claiming "we are victorious" instead of on their
face seeking God with a humble and contrite heart. - (Just my observations of the change in the attitude of general worship over the last four decades).

 

[kenisyes]

I'd say it depends on the length of the musical phrase.
Certainly it is spiritually dictated. - (Either by God, or man, or mammon, or the devil)
There are no hard and fast rules.
Maybe a four measure phrase repeated a dozen times might qualify as 'vain' repetitions.
We see much of this in modern worship music. Not so much in the pre- 'U2' -ization of the worship pulpit.
So during worship, now people are jumping up and down claiming "we are victorious" instead of on their
face seeking God with a humble and contrite heart. - (Just my observations of the change in the attitude of general worship over the last four decades).

I agree with you, there is no hard and fast rule. Part of being a composer or music leader is to be able to read the responses of the congregation and adjust the music accordingly. Like I say, I cannot remember ever seeing over 5 reps of an 8 measure phrase (four measure phrases normally demand adjustment of the semi-cadence, thus creating an 8 measure section). I can remember 16 reps of the music of an 8 measure phrase: It's called doing all the verses of "O For a Thousand Tongues".

I have seen both simultaneously (victorious jumping, and people prostrate asking for forgiveness) in the same congregation, maybe 5 minutes apart. In fact, I've seen it regularly for several years.

 

[MusicTester]

The screams show torture or pain in ones life.

 

[endtimes]

I was just wondering what the truth is to this. I was recently told by my father who is christian that that christian rock is unacceptable and is not God centered music because it feeds the flesh and not the spirit. It was always my belief that the type of music doesnt matter as long ad the message is positive and it is the.right one. In the bible it says to pass on His word. Or am I taking that out of context because I read the only purpose for christian music is to worship Him. I am asking this because this were I feel closest to Him. What is really the right type of music to be listening to as a christian?

To answer that question, we need to know: Is the Holy Spirit moving? Is the Holy Spirit moving in the praise team, as well as the worshipers? By what spirit are the people being moved?